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  1. #61
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    I'm not trying to come off as explaining it that way though so I'm probably just explaining myself incorrectly.

    Whether or not you have to explain past events is only relevant because, without that, you wouldn't have anything to retcon. If nothing from the new story extends back and impacts the old story, there's no retroactive continuity. It's just new story.

    The extent at which you need to explain the past events and how believable/plausible those explanations are also are not factors that determine whether or not a retcon took place, they just merely explain how well the retcon fits into the narrative.

    In the Star Wars example, I was saying that it could or it could not be a retcon based on how well its written into the story to show that it's extremely plausible that it could have been planned from the beginning. Whether or not it is a retcon solely depends on whether or not Lucas intended for Darth Vader to be Luke's father from the beginning, or if it's something he came up with for the second movie to create more drama. It's just written well enough that I would believe it if he told me it was all planned from the very beginning.

    With the Frostmourne situation, I honestly have an incredibly difficult time believing that any of this expanded lore was intended from the beginning in any way. If they had given Frostmourne this ability NOW when it never had it before, it wouldn't be seen as a bad retcon or a retcon at all since it wouldn't change the past. Since they gave it this ability and showed that it DID affect the past characters, they now have to explain how this ability works. This new ability seems extremely inconsistent and not well thought out because of the way the story had been written in the past. It doesn't flow well into the new story.
    New information in the same ongoing story or linear line of events is almost always going to reframe or re-contextualize past events, though. It's almost impossible for it not to unless you constantly shift both characters and settings (in which your narrative arguably isn't linear anymore, or even the same narrative). What you believe is true of Lucas, for example, is just more subjective justification for whether or not you want to employ the term "retcon" and doesn't speak to either a flaw in composition or in construction that said retcon may or may not have caused. I'm saying it doesn't actually matter one way or the other, because the plasticity of narrative supports the contextualizing of the new information without breaking continuity in any real way, it's just new information dynamically shaping the way in which you digest the story.

    To answer your question in regard to Frostmourne, the answer is "no," this expanded lore wasn't at all indeed from the beginning, but it's that very requirement that is at issue here. It's not required that the new lore have justification retroactively, it need only be able to peaceably coexist with the previous lore, which it can and does, at least insofar as this Frostmourne thing is concerned. Now there are some elements of Shadowlands that don't meet that criteria, unfortunately, and cause some issues with digestion. For example how Necromancy works with beings like Kyrian aspirants or Soulshaped Night Fae stewards, etc. I think the soul-splitting behavior of Frostmourne actually supplies a good deal more explanation for a few things, like why Sylvanas became the way she is/was, as well as giving Uther an expanded and interesting story despite his death early on in Warcraft's story. From the subjective standpoint, it kind of depends on what a given person wishes to accentuate or dwell upon.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It's not how they're framing it, but it's also neither here nor there. And as I said, we literally go retrieve the "half" of Uther's soul from the Maw inside Torghast during the quest "A Paladin's Soul" that's part of the 9.1 campaign series. Uther's soul "half" is *in* the Maw, and so was Sylvanas', but apparently kept in another location.

    So "half" of Uther went to the Shadowlands when he died at Arthas' hands, and the other "half" went into Frostmourne and/or the Maw.
    You forgot the third half we interact with in ICC. And the fourth half in WPL. So the mathematically correct conclusion here is that Frostmourne first duplicates a soul, then shatters the two souls and then through some soul-magic scattershit they end up all over the place.
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  3. #63
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    You forgot the third half we interact with in ICC. And the fourth half in WPL. So the mathematically correct conclusion here is that Frostmourne first duplicates a soul, then shatters the two souls and then through some soul-magic scattershit they end up all over the place.
    Well, I think the "halves" thing was a misnomer to begin with, so the potential for multiple fragments is still in play. But insofar as that goes, I think part of Uther's soul was saved by the Light and ultimately sent to Bastion, and part of the soul was taken in by Frostmourne. The part in Frostmourne would've been the source of the echoes that we encounter in ICC and the HoR, and either the Bastion portion or the Frostmourne portion could've (somehow) appeared at his tomb when summoned. Whether or not the portion in Frostmourne was itself fragmented is subject to debate depending on whether or not Frostmourne is itself an extrusion of the Maw beyond the Shadowlands, or if Zovaal was somehow able to tear away soul fragments from Frostmourne's prisoners unbeknownst to its current wielder (like a third party skimming power off the top, we'll say). I think the latter construction is more probable and would explain how we encounter the souls of Halakh and Gavinrad in the Citadel during Legion and why Zovaal has fragments of their souls in his Ossuary.

    TL;DR:
    - Uther was splintered by the twin forces of the Light and Frostmourne and a portion of the remaining soul in Frostmourne was taken by Zovaal.
    - Sylvanas was taken by Frostmourne, had a portion of her soul removed, and the Frostmourne portion removed to become a Banshee.
    - The rest of the souls were absorbed into Frostmourne, and fragments of their souls were taken by Zovaal.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Maybe youve noticed a Banshee Queen walking around WoW for the last 15 years lol :P

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    I thought she saw nothing but blackness when she ''died'' after Arthas?
    She saw peaceful afterlife when she dies to arthas.

    The blackness was after she killed herself after ICC.
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by The Council View Post
    She saw peaceful afterlife when she dies to arthas.

    The blackness was after she killed herself after ICC.
    Well it don't really matter what she saw in WC3 death, since she was pulled back to the living by Arthas, so that previous judgement was before any actions taken as a Banshee Queen and premature I would think.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
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    Yes but this also suggests Forsaken aren't really undead. The tainted grain just mutated them as when they die they just go to the Shadowlands like normal, IE we see Forsaken souls in Bastion as forsaken, not human.

    But then that makes Valkyr Forsaken even more confusing. This lore is a real mess.
    Forsaken makes sense, they should be in the Shadowlands after their first death as Humans, but instead are forced to come back as Forsaken. The grain kills them before they become Forsaken afaik. They get sent to the Shadowlands if they die as Forsaken however, unless resurrected by outside influences. An example of this would be someone like Lich King Arthas using his powers to bring a Forsaken back again as a Death Knight by forcing their soul back into their body to serve him.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Frostmourne claimed her soul, just like Uthers and a bunch of others.
    Uther's soul that stayed in Frostmourne and Sylvanas's soul that was put in her body can be comparable.

    So Uther's soul that went to Kyrian land(already forgot the name of the place) and Sylvanas's that went to the Jailer would also be comparable.

    Correct me if im wrong(i haven't played since launch) Uther also has a soul fragment that the Jailer had, but we know that Uther's soul in frostmourne can't be it, because he appeared after Frostmourne broke and we talk with him, pretty sure that soul is still on Azeroth(long forgotten by this team).

    so it's all really just some bullshit that doesn't match up with uther and a bunch of others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Well, there are no "halves" in play here, really. When Arthas slew Sylvanas with Frostmourne, a portion of her soul wound up in the Maw as the Jailer's trophy and the remainder was extracted and twisted into a Banshee that eventually became the Sylvanas we've known all the time.
    so how did a portion of Uther's ended up in the maw, portion end up in Kyrian place and a portion stay in Frostmourne?

    I assume what this is implying is the souls that were taken by frostmourne is what the Jailer got, because Bluther clearly isn't the one that was claimed by Frostmourne. However the Uther soul claimed by frostmourne was freed and stayed awhile to talk to us on Azeroth and presumably is still there and supposedly there's still souls trapped in Frostmourne aswell, so him having those soul fragments doesn't make sense, but he does have a fragment of Uther making there be 3 uther's now.

    Frostmourne took Sylvanas' soul and it was put right back into her body, so that should be the fragment the Jailer got and the good version of her should be running around with Bluther, but it's on the Maw...

    it dont make no sense

  8. #68
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    so how did a portion of Uther's ended up in the maw, portion end up in Kyrian place and a portion stay in Frostmourne?

    I assume what this is implying is the souls that were taken by frostmourne is what the Jailer got, because Bluther clearly isn't the one that was claimed by Frostmourne. However the Uther soul claimed by frostmourne was freed and stayed awhile to talk to us on Azeroth and presumably is still there and supposedly there's still souls trapped in Frostmourne aswell, so him having those soul fragments doesn't make sense, but he does have a fragment of Uther making there be 3 uther's now.

    Frostmourne took Sylvanas' soul and it was put right back into her body, so that should be the fragment the Jailer got and the good version of her should be running around with Bluther, but it's on the Maw...

    it dont make no sense
    - Uther was splintered by the twin forces of the Light and Frostmourne and a portion of the remaining soul in Frostmourne was taken by Zovaal.
    - Sylvanas was taken by Frostmourne, had a portion of her soul removed, and the Frostmourne portion removed to become a Banshee.
    - The rest of the souls were absorbed into Frostmourne, and fragments of their souls were taken by Zovaal.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

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