Poll: Steve Danuser's writing in & for WoW?

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  1. #421
    as many people say, Danuser has been a terrible lead for the narrative of Warcraft. Not just from his awful work on BFA and SL, but also with how wasted the story of legion was.

    Now yes, this is part before Danuser took over, but boy legion should have ended with us cleaning Azeroth of all Legion invasions and the next expansion being us going on the offensive against the legion for the first time. Have the stories of Alleria/Turalyon, Argus/Draenei, Titan revivals, army of the light, Sargeras, legion homebase/raid and so on in a full expansion, not a freaking single patch. There was so much that could have been done with the Army of the Light, instead of them being just a bunch of random draenei... Xe'ra could have had much more involvement and her fight against Sargeras. Sargeras should have been more direct with us, like Arthas was in Wrath, with taunts and all that instead of just showing up randomly at the end.

    Then after the legion's end, have the expansion focus on Azshara and doing a full proper Naga arc, sprinkle in Nzoth manipulating Alliance vs Horde fights and end with a full on Nzoth revival and invasion. Nzoth then gets his proper expansion

    Instead we get all this stuff rushed into single patches so Danuser can redeem his stupid waifu -_-

  2. #422
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    And she also was shown to be regretful in calling the retreat, and she didn't want to be warchief.
    Yeah, she didn't want to, because all focus was on her, doesn't mean she can't change ehr mind later seeing the pwoer in her grasp.
    Come on, the whole point of Sylvanas is that she could have gone either way, and BfA bulldozed any nuance and went straight for cartoon villainy.
    If she could go both ways, then whats the problem going one of those?

    yeah it was faster than usual, but so did Garry, wow isn't rly good at pacing.

    cause again @Syegfryed the problem isn't that she was made a villain, but how badly she was written as a character,
    But that is another problem to be talking about, bad characterization, that had a lot in BfA

    and the bigger problem is taking a character who was 120% villain and spinning a redemption as good guy because your are fanboy at it.

    Any decent writer would see sylvanas in BfA and continue the path of a villain, and, maybe make the villain more compeling, not trying to make a shyamalan plottwist

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven View Post
    Alliance bias controls the game ?

    Even tho they have died or gone bad, its the horde that has had any type of story.

    "you get you lore raped, your characters destroyed and killed, turn bad and wasted, you get all the focus /s"


    Its better to have no story than getting your faction ruined, Alliance people don't know how luck they are, i wish iw as a dwarf fan, no story but my race isn't fucked over the years.

    And even in Shadowlands with so many chances to do something cool with Tyrande and her hunt for Sylvanas nothing happened, Tyrande pretty much gained awesome powers and then lost them.
    This is whats happens when you get story in wow, this is the horde life

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    BFA and BTS were not made in common continuity with previous appearances by Sylvanas. They turned the character into a caricature to service Sadfang's story, among others, and wrecked the entire Forsaken race to do so in the case of BTS and the whole of the Horde faction in the case of BFA. SL's error isn't in making Sylvanas a character again after she was a plot device to service other wastes of space, it's that that character turn was poorly executed and doomed to failure by default.
    Seems like it is a decent continuity, the only difference is how they went the maddening spiral too quickly, but that is a problem for almost everything in wow, like Grom from villain to draenor is free because they cut all of his development.

    But don't get me wrong, BfA sucked hairy balls, and its prob the worst wow expansion to date, but Sylvanas becoming villain made sense.

    But she becoming fangirl of a bald man, since wtlk, then suddenly "i will never serve" then, haiving two sylvani, then she is pain regret, and now is good with a lame redemption arc? this don't make any sense.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2022-01-08 at 02:30 AM.

  3. #423
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    I don't know the guy. I am not going to insult the guy personally, but I am also not going to say I enjoy the lead direction this lore is going in. I quit WoW because of this expansion and for the first time in 16 years unsubbed and tis mainly due to the theme of the expansion and it having no connection with me. Also the gameplay and anxiety inducing systems didn't help either.

    I'll maybe come back next expansion but if its also not good I will remain unsubbed. The storytelling is so bad, like really bad, it has potential, all the pieces are there but its so disjoined and messy and badly incorporated into the game.
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  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    The problem is that there isn't really a journey to begin with. Sylvanas has always been a villain, the only people that are surprised that she is willing to eradicate the universe for her personal agenda, are her large following of fanbois that somehow in their heads turned her into an anti-hero, while she never ever did anything heroic or even something that wasn't 100% self-centered.
    This take completely ignores that there are different reasons and motivations for actions and lumps everything into "well they were always a villain"

    Sylvanas for the time frame up through MoP was largely a being that might be understood as something viewing death as a curse "What are we if not slaves to this curse" being her quote line. But then with post wod retcons the material in cata to have her more Lich Queen "All will serve in death"

    You're right in that there was no journey. At least none where the audience could see... the change just hit when they advanced the plot, but people like you just gloss it over as "she was always a villain"

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    If she could go both ways, then whats the problem going one of those?

    yeah it was faster than usual, but so did Garry, wow isn't rly good at pacing.
    Because BfA went about it the most mediocre if not outright way possible; making the hard left turn at the start of the expansion that went again her previous characterization and goals and withholding any introspection into her motives for a whole expansion, just using her as a plot device.

    In the prelude to BfA Sylvanas goals still were to eventually capture Stormwind and achieve Horde supremacy, but by destroying Teldrassil, she forced a war she was not prepared for and alienated her allies, and only then that was revealed at the END that wanton destruction was the goal.

    For the nth time, the point isn't that she was made the bad guy, but that her descent into complete villainy was rushed, her actions made no sense -which goes against everything Sylvanas had done until that point- and it took almost a whole expansion to even HINT at the motivations behind.

    and the bigger problem is taking a character who was 120% villain and spinning a redemption as good guy because your are fanboy at it.
    Maybe, I can see it as foolish or arrogant; but to dismiss the evident fact that descent into villainy was completely butchered on the first place, is very disingenuous.

    And as much as BfA Sylvanas just hurts SL's characterization, I'm gonna give more props to the sheer idea of trying to do something with the character, instead of BfA making Sylvanas a cartoon villain without any solid motivation, removing all the nuance of the previous 15 years of characterization, god damn.

    It's SO much easier to blame SL's story for what was BfA's fuck up. And what gets to me is that we already accepted retconing bad characterizations is at least on the table with Illidan being fucked up by BC, so it's kinda hypocritical to dismiss Danuser's (if less successful, at least dedicated) approach.

    The story would have been different if BfA told a GOOD villain story, but there's no way around it, Sylvanas BfA characterization sucked.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Seems like it is a decent continuity, the only difference is how they went the maddening spiral too quickly, but that is a problem for almost everything in wow, like Grom from villain to draenor is free because they cut all of his development.

    But don't get me wrong, BfA sucked hairy balls, and its prob the worst wow expansion to date, but Sylvanas becoming villain made sense.

    But she becoming fangirl of a bald man, since wtlk, then suddenly "i will never serve" then, haiving two sylvani, then she is pain regret, and now is good with a lame redemption arc? this don't make any sense.
    Sylvanas becoming a villain in general is a workable plot route and could be done well by following through on previous parts of her character. BFA didn't do this, but instead replaced her with a plank, working against and backwards from her previous villainy. To give just two examples:

    Sylvanas' worst actions re: the Alliance in Cataclysm were based on Lordaeronian revanchism and her belief that undeath was preferable to life because life leads you to hell. She didn't control the Forsaken with some shambolic police state but it was a pretty clear case where their own positive self-image was bad for others. This leaves room for her to want to raise others en masse to keep them from hell. BTS toys with this idea as her overall goal re: Stormwind and obviously mass worldwide necromancy is something most groups would oppose if revealed to the more spiritual races of the Horde. Instead, Sylvanas raises undead in Undercity and then a handful named undead and her goal is revealed to be to NOT raise undead. The Lordaeronian revanchism is cut out, and with it the legs of the entire post-Cata Forsaken faction, removing both the means of making her a villain in that way, vastly undermining a main race, and then cutting out the goal as well.

    Speaking of the more spiritual races of the Horde, one of the main bits of the Orc-Forsaken dynamic was that they didn't like each other very much. They acknowledged each other as powerful players and could get along to some extent like with Cromush coming over to the Forsaken way of doing things, but there was no overall love for Sylvanas within the Horde. A Sylvanas as Warchief who had to lead from Orgrimmar would be leaving her place of power in Undercity to be surrounded by people who didn't trust her much and who she'd have to appease. Her villainy could come from isolation and from the feeling that her previous walls were no longer there. Hell, the whole reason she objects to Theramore is that it'd then bring the Alliance down on Orgrimmar. Instead, Sylvanas has 100% approval rating in the Horde when Garrosh got opposed over much, much less, and it's the Forsaken who actually didn't like her. Where Sylvanas previously opposed an attack on Kalimdor because it'd weaken her base of power now she starts a war from there and suffers zero consequences, be it from costing the Forsaken capital city, raising undead from their bodies in violating an orcish taboo even the Legion couldn't get them to break, to then sending hte Forsaken to fight in Darkshore, which interests none of them, were previously the Forsaken had been willing to attempt a coup on her for the crime of not being harsh enough.

    This is without getting into making her goal world genocide since Cataclysm and sending people to hell despite us knowing the exact opposite was her animus up until then, up to raising hundreds daily in Cataclysm, how much giving Sylvanas 100% approval by the Horde turns both her and their characters to mush so the writers can make some weird meta political point etc. The problem isn't Sylvanas in BFA was a villain or that she couldn't be a villain based on the previous story. You could easily have her take the plunge on the basis of desperation or alienation, that comes as a result of a promotion to Warchief we later learn was deliberately picked for her by the Bald Man to get her into his camp at her weakest. Or to have the azerite convince her that she really can secure herself for all time by world domination like in BTS. But these aren't the stories told, her villainy bore no resemblance to her villainy in the past and for that reason she was a shit villain when she could've been a very good one. When it's arguable if she was even a character in BFA the idea of being an antagonist, let alone a good one, flies out the window.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-01-08 at 07:08 AM.
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  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The issue with that reading is that the Thrall setup wasn't that. The Thrall-era orcs didn't have distinct clans in any sense that the story acknowledged. The only ones at the time of Vanilla were the Frostwolves - which were added in WC3 and essentially the generic Thrall orc anyway, the Shattered Hand, which were some weird multiracial rogue organisation that badly wanted to be SI:7 but didn't go anywhere and the Warsong, which were solid. Reuniting the clans would require the clans to be pertinent to the Horde, but the narrative never pretended this to be the case. Most of the Clans are absent in WC3, the Blackrock are always hostile and there's no actual weight to the Horde quests going after the Dark Horde - you're just killing some random dude in Rend, making no effort to go after his clan and the like. In trying to escape the stereotype of a fantasy orc it was neutered and weak, functional in the RTS because of its limited screentime and clear arc but incapable of serving a long-term two faction narrative. Slowly readding the earlier orcish elements and recontextualizing everything from Thrall's relation to the orcish people to Durotar as an actual livable area breathed life into the main Horde race where before it was the third wheel to WC3's SC1 reenactment.

    The other issue with the WC3 Horde as a long-term storytelling basis is in your last sentence. Yes, trolls are great, I love trolls, but the Darkspear's founding gimmick, their only distinguishing gimmick in fact is that they're not like those other girls trolls. They don't practice cannibalism or blood sacrifice, their appeasement of spirits is long term. Sen'jin wasn't a character and neither was Vol'jin until Cataclysm, because then he was opposite Garrosh and the Darkspear and orcish goals were finally apart. The trolls and tauren in WC3 were never more than an addendum to the Thrall-era orcs as what was essentially underdeveloped versions of them with a different aesthetic and so unsuited to carrying on any kind of narrative on their own. They became their own players in Cataclysm when the orcs regained enough of their cumulative WC2 era characterization that they could exist apart from the orcs.
    I absolutely agree that they were the closest ever to that kind of Horde during Cataclysm. The mess started roughly with Cairne's offscreen death. Thrall could've and should've been pushed out in a way that doesn't belittle his role in the creation of the "new" Horde, while at the same time making sure that a warchief, more suitable for the changing circumstances, takes the helm. Thrall could've been "demoted" into the warchief of the Frostwolf clan.

    It was the direction they steered Thrall in after Warcraft III that I find to be the problem. Thrall could've slowly readmitted the various clans back into the Horde, especially after TBC. If he was ready to accept the undead because they were the victims of the Scourge and the tauren sought a way to help them, then I find it absolutely illogical to not try to help whatever is left of your people on Azeroth, who are still lost and trying to find their purpose on both Azeroth and Outland. The various Alliance human kingdoms could've been used as a common element for the unification of the various clans, including those that rather go to war than talk things out. Blizzard refused to accentuate the race wars in Warcraft's MMO, leading to the watering down of the various elements that glued the races of the Horde together. To this day there's no real narrative reason why we don't see more conflict based on racial hatred alone. They're actively avoiding these aspects.

    The Horde is a faction that serves as a birthing machine for plot devices and this could've been avoided by making sure there's no elves and undead in the Horde, while sticking to relatable plots. This would allow the preservation of the faction as an aesthetically and historicaly more or less homogenous group and this is very important for faction identity. The Alliance itself should've served as all the reason they need to band as many orc, tauren, troll and ogre tribes together. The only division the Horde would then have would be along spiritual and tribal lines, which isn't a foreign concept for the Horde. From the use of fel by orcish warlocks, all the way to even creating new two-headed ogre magi by Shadowmoon warlocks. If torturing humans beneath the ruins of Lordaeron, devising a new plague and raising new human corpses into undeath is acceptable, I don't see why some of the practices of the old Horde are bad.

    The Horde's trolls fall under the same category of unnecessary casualties of Blizzard's writing(the entire troll race even more so). The trolls could've been recruited slowly, one tribe at a time. WoW started off in that direction, with the trolls from the Hinterlands and Northern Kalimdor being parts of the Horde. All of this derailed with TBC, where the Horde put itself up against Zul'jin in order to help the blood elves, in one of the most non-sensical moves I've ever seen in early WoW. This is just one casualty of the Horde's identity that is a direct result of throwing the elves into the Horde. A legend of Orgrim's Horde, a troll that could champion the Horde's cause against the Alliance in the Northern EK - Zul'jin - was cast aside by the Horde in order to assist the blood elves, a race that is historically, culturally, militarily and in every other possible way different than any race of the Horde. And the reason behind it? To enable the paladin class in the Horde, justifying it with a quick questline about night elves attempting to conquer Quel'thalas that is half the planet away from their lands, after the biggest catastrophe in night elven history after the sundering.

    Both the Horde and the Alliance suffered heavily from Blizzard trying to actively remove the themes these factions revolved around early on. This is why characters like Daelin Proudmoore, Zul'jin and a few others are among my favourites when it comes to factions; they're controversial, they're flawed, yet it is easy to understand them. The races that were forced into the Horde also suffered the errosion of their aesthetical theme. There was an incredible amount of potential when it comes down to the blood elven and the undead. I firmly believe that the undead freed from serving the Lich King's will should've been a faction of their own, with playable undead humans, undead dwarves and undead high elves right off the bat.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2022-01-08 at 12:21 PM.

  8. #428
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Because BfA went about it the most mediocre if not outright way possible; making the hard left turn at the start of the expansion that went again her previous characterization and goals and withholding any introspection into her motives for a whole expansion, just using her as a plot device.
    Like i said, i understand it went in the most mediocre way possible, did you played that expansion? everything there was mediocre or close to, but again, Sylvanas going villain 100% made sense, she get a redemption because she was always the good guy? nope.


    For the nth time, the point isn't that she was made the bad guy, but that her descent into complete villainy was rushed, her actions made no sense -which goes against everything Sylvanas had done until that point- and it took almost a whole expansion to even HINT at the motivations behind.
    But that isn't the point right? we all know how awful everything post MOP was being, but this isn't the crux of the problem of Sylvanas in shadowlands, cause even if you erase BfA completely you will still get a nonsensical expansion with Sylvanas redemption.


    And as much as BfA Sylvanas just hurts SL's characterization, I'm gonna give more props to the sheer idea of trying to do something with the character, instead of BfA making Sylvanas a cartoon villain without any solid motivation, removing all the nuance of the previous 15 years of characterization, god damn.
    You are giving props to someone who saw something shit and decide to put, perfume on it, a perfume that smell like piss.

    The sheer idea of having a mad villain in your lap and trying to spin a redemption arc, that literally nobody wanted, is completely idiotic, its putting your head so far up your own ass that you can't see previous events of the game you work for and ignoring the fanbase who play the game.

    You are taking like Sylvanas being Anduin lapdog is something that goes along with her nuances for the past 15 years of warcraft, when, burning teldrassil because you became mad goes hand to hand to someone who put a dreadlord as second in command.


    The story would have been different if BfA told a GOOD villain story, but there's no way around it, Sylvanas BfA characterization sucked.
    Sylvanas in shadowlands keep sucking, if not even more, even if you delete BfA and ignores it, it still awful, because the writer instead of attempting to make the villain a compelling villain he tried to spina hero with a redemption arc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Sylvanas becoming a villain in general is a workable plot route and could be done well by following through on previous parts of her character. BFA didn't do this, but instead replaced her with a plank, working against and backwards from her previous villainy.
    Like i said, i completely agree, its the same thing they did with Garry, BfA was awful all together.

    But just because the expansion was awful and they did 52% to 100% real fucking quick doesn't not mean in shadowlands you have to go from 100% to 0% (that is her eprcentage of villainess);

    the only portryd possible to shadowlands was trying to make her a compelling villain, not a hero, period.

  9. #429
    He thought Daenery's heelturn "made sense" to her character so of course we can look forward to any character randomly commit genocide regardless of it making sense.

  10. #430
    Not sure if this was posted but they even got Nobbel completely disinterested in the story, the very lore guy who is usually very reasonable with Warcrafts silly and over the top storylines. But he calls Shadowlands story rightfully shit:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/OptimisticGo...nS71DXXXPPaGo9

    Funny that the poll results are still the same since the first page with the ''no'' votes over 92%. I can only assume that at least 30 out of the 34 ''yes'' votes are just trolling. The story is unsalvageable and Danuser should have been laid off years ago. Its actually impressive how bad the story could have gotten.

  11. #431
    Honestly there's not much that can be argued with you. You're so mad that she's been given a crappy redemption arc that you completetely dismiss the inciting event of making her a crappy villain.

    But that isn't the point right? we all know how awful everything post MOP was being, but this isn't the crux of the problem of Sylvanas in shadowlands, cause even if you erase BfA completely you will still get a nonsensical expansion with Sylvanas redemption.
    What? How are you completely missing the fact that if BfA didn't utterly drag Sylvanas into nonsensical cartoon villainy, a redemption arc would have been completely fine? JFC, all BfA needed was to give Sylvanas motivations and be less cartoonishly evil and a redemption arc would have just been fine. How is your opinion anything but anti Sylvanas bias? I'm not asking you to like her, but it's like you're blind to the structural problems because you'd rather explain anything as "makes 100% sense she's evil!"

    Even if HOW she was written as evil is what sucks *facepalm*

    It's not freaking different to how Illidan was butchered in Burning Crusade. And even when Garrosh's arc had its issues -most notoriously Stonetalon Peaks- his progression into villainy was far better paced and explored through 2 expansions.

    Sylvanas was just a rushed, worst version of him. The point is that it's way easier for you to decry Shadowlands when it was BfA which majorly fucked her character first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You are taking like Sylvanas being Anduin lapdog is something that goes along with her nuances for the past 15 years of warcraft, when, burning teldrassil because you became mad goes hand to hand to someone who put a dreadlord as second in command.
    How is Sylvanas Anduin's lapdog JFC?!? The whole point of her relationship with him is that she is prejecting on him hard as fuck. Nah man, you don't get to criticize characters when you so utterly misunderstand characterization so wildly.

    For real, how are you conflating arrogance (thinking you can dominate a dreadlord) with simply being mad? "Oh overconfidence is a sign of being crazy"

    God your interpretation of characters is shallow as fuck. This is pointless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    He thought Daenery's heelturn "made sense" to her character so of course we can look forward to any character randomly commit genocide regardless of it making sense.
    What I find legit funny about this is that his whole arc with Sylvanas in SL reads like a post season 8 Daenerys fix-it fic where she gets redemption lmao
    Last edited by MyWholeLifeIsThunder; 2022-01-08 at 08:03 PM.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    What I find legit funny about this is that his whole arc with Sylvanas in SL reads like a post season 8 Daenerys fix-it fic where she gets redemption lmao
    The timeline checks out. Burning Telldrassil is the direct response to Danuser thinking The Bells was a good episode & everyone else thinking Sylvanas & Daenery's "oopsie genocide" is out of character.

  13. #433
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Honestly there's not much that can be argued with you. You're so mad that she's been given a crappy redemption arc that you completetely dismiss the inciting event of making her a crappy villain.
    And you are compltely ignoring how her becoming a villain makes sense and a redmeption arc don't.

    Tbf you are bringing up another subject here, no one is talking about if her descent to vilany was good or not, it was bad handled, period, the problem is getting a villain and shoving a redemption story on it, no writer with his right mind would get a villain, especially one that previously expansion went full bananas and try a lame ass redemption story, is awful and should not be given props.


    What? How are you completely missing the fact that if BfA didn't utterly drag Sylvanas into nonsensical cartoon villainy, a redemption arc would have been completely fine? JFC, all BfA needed was to give Sylvanas motivations and be less cartoonishly evil and a redemption arc would have just been fine. How is your opinion anything but anti Sylvanas bias? I'm not asking you to like her, but it's like you're blind to the structural problems because you'd rather explain anything as "makes 100% sense she's evil!"
    There is no Redemption Arc for sylvanas previously because she was not "in the wrong", sh was djust a pragmatic leaer doing what it needs for her people

    Shoving a redemption story destroy her character and forsaken lore more than her going full villain.

    It's not freaking different to how Illidan was butchered in Burning Crusade. And even when Garrosh's arc had its issues -most notoriously Stonetalon Peaks- his progression into villainy was far better paced and explored through 2 expansions.

    Sylvanas was just a rushed, worst version of him. The point is that it's way easier for you to decry Shadowlands when it was BfA which majorly fucked her character first.
    Please, show me exactly when i said her going villain was not rushed or it was very well wrriten, cause its what you think im saying here

    And please, tell me how BfA being bad written somehow excuse a lame ass redemption story full of cringe dialogues, moments and character assassination.

    How is Sylvanas Anduin's lapdog JFC?!? The whole point of her relationship with him is that she is prejecting on him hard as fuck. Nah man, you don't get to criticize characters when you so utterly misunderstand characterization so wildly.
    ah yes, Sylvanas projecting herself in the little Golden boy, truly, a nuance that rly bring forward the 15 years of her character as range general and as banshee queen, cause she rly need Anduin to see the bald man was bad all along.

    Im so gladly Danuser took a villain that everybody hated and turned into someone who project emotions into an alliance child, while ignoring 100% the previous expansion and even the books that goes before this expansion.


    Know i know why he keeps his job, trully saved her character from BfA characterization
    For real, how are you conflating arrogance (thinking you can dominate a dreadlord) with simply being mad? "Oh overconfidence is a sign of being crazy"

    God your interpretation of characters is shallow as fuck. This is pointless.
    Getting mad and triggered goes hand to hand with overconfidence, pride and doing harsh actions

  14. #434
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    He's trying to tell an already not great storyline with misused techniques in a video game whose update cycles only further hamstring any meaningful progression and lacks consistency and continuity.

    I think he was doomed from the start because of how he approached things. Legion wasn't even that good either, the many shitty plot points were overshadowed by rule of cool and good gameplay. The best lore was contained in zones, the expansion story was total garbage.
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  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    He's trying to tell an already not great storyline with misused techniques in a video game whose update cycles only further hamstring any meaningful progression and lacks consistency and continuity.

    I think he was doomed from the start because of how he approached things. Legion wasn't even that good either, the many shitty plot points were overshadowed by rule of cool and good gameplay. The best lore was contained in zones, the expansion story was total garbage.
    For a moderator, you surprisingly don't use moderation in your speech :/

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    This take completely ignores that there are different reasons and motivations for actions and lumps everything into "well they were always a villain"

    Sylvanas for the time frame up through MoP was largely a being that might be understood as something viewing death as a curse "What are we if not slaves to this curse" being her quote line. But then with post wod retcons the material in cata to have her more Lich Queen "All will serve in death"
    Sure she felt that way, but that did not even slightly hinder her in inflicting this "curse" on hundreds of people long before Teldrassil. Literally one of her first actions when she had her free will back was experimenting on helpless farmers and murdering them in her pursuit of a new plague. How are we supposed to see this as anything other then villanious?

    She didn't even do it because she wanted to stop Arthas for any noble reason, she just wanted her personal revenge and did not care one lick whose corpse she had to step over for that, which included her very own Forsaken who she also killed in those experiments without a care in the world.

    Then when Arthas died, she had her little round-trip to the Maw and after that did the same evil shit to keep herself alive at any cost.

    So neither her reasons nor motivations were or are in any way not self-serving, so I really do not see this sudden change you are talking about. Everything she did in BFA was perfectly in line with her character up till then.

    But please change my mind. What good deed has she done that was not entirely self-serving?

  17. #437
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    For a moderator, you surprisingly don't use moderation in your speech :/
    He is right though, Legion was a shitshow but luck for the expansion, it came right after WoD, you masquerade with tons of stuff to do, people engaged will be overjoyed after the drought that wod was.

    But the lore was a shitshow save some places like Suramar, and i say that as an elf hater, overall plot was silly and bad, start wrong by killing vol'jin, you have the "bigest legion invasion since the first invasion" but you only fight in broken isles, that, out of nowhere, sprouted a huge continent, with a lot of races and ghost elves with you getting macguffings to open the tomb.

    Then, in one patch, you streamroll the legion homeworld, that is a shitplace they could not dominate over thousand of years, and your enemy is a titan they pull out of their asses, and of course spicing things sup with Illidan the chosen one and our Savior after we killed the tyrant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    But please change my mind. What good deed has she done that was not entirely self-serving?
    you didn't get, she was kind with her sisters, totally redemption worthy /s

  18. #438
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    For a moderator, you surprisingly don't use moderation in your speech :/
    Are you upset I swore?

    On the internet? I got bad news for you. They used to swear in game too.
    Moderator of the General Off-Topic, Politics, Lore, and RP Forums
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  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    BfA intro cinematic was truly bait & switch business. It is supposed to be taking place at Lordaeron, but the sun is shining brightly, without a trace of the green hue in the sky. There are no Azerite tanks, no blight, no Sylv raising the dead - on the contrary, she's personally leading the defense, and ostensibly talking about a cycle of vengeance, which looks all but forgotten now.

    Compared to it, the SL intro may be #@%&, but it at least matches the expansion's actual story.
    Honestly? This. This is what I never understood about the direction of BfA and why people said that the story was clearly not flipped on its head mid way through the expansion. I mean, there's just no way they sell THAT cinematic and we get what we ended up getting. You're totally right about how it doesn't match ANYTHING. Every other cinematic has matched the story of the game well.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    BfA intro cinematic was truly bait & switch business. It is supposed to be taking place at Lordaeron, but the sun is shining brightly, without a trace of the green hue in the sky. There are no Azerite tanks, no blight, no Sylv raising the dead - on the contrary, she's personally leading the defense, and ostensibly talking about a cycle of vengeance, which looks all but forgotten now.

    Compared to it, the SL intro may be #@%&, but it at least matches the expansion's actual story.
    I agree. It literally had even set up the Alliance as the aggressor, something the players have LOOONGGG been asking for. Also showing Sylvanas caring not just for the Forsaken but growing as a Warchief and respecting the Horde
    "You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation."

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