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  1. #1

    Is lore completely destroyed?

    With all these First Ones, some kind of hidden super-realities inside other realities and so on, this is no longer felt by Warcraft. And that's not to mention plot holes like the Jailer's 5-D chess game or Sylvanas' actions and so on. It seems to me that even if you say that it was all a dream or a retcon in some other way, it will only hurt the lore even more, because everyone is tired of retcons.

  2. #2
    Yes. The moment we stepped into Alternate universe(s). And even started bringing armies from there into our world (mag'har orcs).

    not to mention the s*it fest that came with S*itlands.

    I wouldn't be surprised if 10.0 turns out it was all N'zoth's plan! Because we never actually killed him (fight ends on 2.5% ) and he knew he wouldn't be able to win battle against us, so he needed to pull back and to get us into realm of death it self! HUR DUR!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    Yes. The moment we stepped into Alternate universe(s). And even started bringing armies from there into our world (mag'har orcs).

    not to mention the s*it fest that came with S*itlands.

    I wouldn't be surprised if 10.0 turns out it was all N'zoth's plan! Because we never actually killed him (fight ends on 2.5% ) and he knew he wouldn't be able to win battle against us, so he needed to pull back and to get us into realm of death it self! HUR DUR!
    There won't be any N'Zoth, thanks to 9.2 dealing with the Jailer's plans to change reality, I'm betting you the player will do it instead and Thanos all the bad stuff out of existence, full reset, begin the next book of WoW from scratch. No need to worry about consistency or the old lore, or even about any of the loose ends left at the end of the expansion.

  4. #4
    Just look at DC and Marvel, there's your answer. They have done more retcons in a single reset then all of WOW's changes combined.

  5. #5
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Sadly, yes, if we rly want something good the only alternative is a reboot/reset. back to vanilla or i dunno, cataclysm at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sensei View Post
    There won't be any N'Zoth, thanks to 9.2 dealing with the Jailer's plans to change reality, I'm betting you the player will do it instead and Thanos all the bad stuff out of existence, full reset, begin the next book of WoW from scratch. No need to worry about consistency or the old lore, or even about any of the loose ends left at the end of the expansion.
    it was a fan favorite theory that the Janitor partially succeed or something else happened and we came back to azeroth changed.

    Or, that in the real world much time have passed and there is a timeskip.

    But, i don't believe they have the balls to do it.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Sadly, yes, if we rly want something good the only alternative is a reboot/reset. back to vanilla or i dunno, cataclysm at least.

    - - - Updated - - -



    it was a fan favorite theory that the Janitor partially succeed or something else happened and we came back to azeroth changed.

    Or, that in the real world much time have passed and there is a timeskip.

    But, i don't believe they have the balls to do it.
    I don't think its the lack of balls and rather the lack of developers, money and time.
    Timeskip would mean updating EVERYTHING unless they close off complete continents into chromie time. Imagine the shitshow then. People will FLIP out.
    I honestly would welcome it. CLose of everything except Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdom. Update those after a timeskip of about 100 years and release them back via patches.

    OT: Lore is not dead. It still makes sense. Many don't like it. But the whole premise we base that on is that we know EVERYTHING and that everything every villian and NPC ever told us is the absolute truth. Which honestly is a bit naive. The Jailors existence doesn't actually change anything. It expands what we allready know and gives it more context. But it does definetly not destroy it.
    If you like it or not is another thing entirely. I am rather ambivalent tbh. I don't think it is bad per se. But i also don't think it was necceserry to slap another laer of gods on top. But they took the wonder out of titans in Legion. After that... where do you go? So they needed something mroe abstract on top again. What they do woth that... i will wait.

    The problem with the game are way deeper than lore. If the game was content wise good no one would bat an eye about the lore. But just compare the amount of content from wow to other MMOs... its staggering... even gear is way more abundant in other MMOs. They sell it in shops but still

  7. #7
    Yes, Warcraft must only ever have anything to do with either Arthas or the Burning Legion. Ever. Even the slightest hint of an original idea spells doom.

  8. #8
    No? People seem to forget the lore in itself is fine…until the storytelling comes in. And that aspect alone ruins the experience and dampens the “lore” a bit. FF does perfect for both (fuck 10 and 13 tho lol) but WoW has been telling half a story while providing easily and not so easily overlooked minor and VERY major retcons since WC fucking 1. Wanna know why early WoW worked tho? Cause unlike BFA+, the Old Gods and Titans were legit established beings that existed since WC2…I think? Maybe 3 Idfk I do know Sargeras used to be pathetic tho lmaooo and the Old Gods were Titan lvl lol

    As for everything else??? Uhm

    Outside of Sylvanas and N’Zoth being wasted cause “hurr Old Gods suck hurr Death be kinda threatening hurr”

    …I think the lore is ok. Storytelling is prolly worse than before tho. Zovaal has no characterization, despite his motives being established, Elunes plot is over as soon as it begins, Sargeras’ BS is based off some dumb cosmic lie now, KJ is not some big brained deceiver anymore, I wanna see Broxigar or some shit in SL (Ik Sargeras fucked his ass up, but I doubt his soul was obliterated lol), Uthalesh Is gone, where is Helya, what about the Dreadlord life plot, who tf leads the Drust now? Etc

    It’s so dumb. Now I’m to believe Sylvanas still has her banshee Maw powers and has green health whenever we go near her??? She doesn’t even say anything nice to us, she says nice empowering things to Anduin, says “there is no way time to waste” and confidentially has a damn free will amp on top of it all alongside us…plus a final chapter most likely dedicated to her…

    Plus the fact she is the “first Maw Walker” and that whole “souls deserve redemption” thing, and the soul split BS which only ever existed as an actual normal domination factor for SL alone kinda pisses me off…

    If SL ends the way everyone thought…I’ll quit WoW and just move on. I don’t think the lore is fucked, but the storytelling is ass, and that alone is resulting in a game with “degrading” lore quality

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    I don't think its the lack of balls and rather the lack of developers, money and time.
    Timeskip would mean updating EVERYTHING unless they close off complete continents into chromie time. Imagine the shitshow then. People will FLIP out.
    I honestly would welcome it. CLose of everything except Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdom. Update those after a timeskip of about 100 years and release them back via patches.

    OT: Lore is not dead. It still makes sense. Many don't like it. But the whole premise we base that on is that we know EVERYTHING and that everything every villian and NPC ever told us is the absolute truth. Which honestly is a bit naive. The Jailors existence doesn't actually change anything. It expands what we allready know and gives it more context. But it does definetly not destroy it.
    If you like it or not is another thing entirely. I am rather ambivalent tbh. I don't think it is bad per se. But i also don't think it was necceserry to slap another laer of gods on top. But they took the wonder out of titans in Legion. After that... where do you go? So they needed something mroe abstract on top again. What they do woth that... i will wait.

    The problem with the game are way deeper than lore. If the game was content wise good no one would bat an eye about the lore. But just compare the amount of content from wow to other MMOs... its staggering... even gear is way more abundant in other MMOs. They sell it in shops but still
    Zovaal’s existence doesn’t have to change shit. It does have to be properly told tho…

  9. #9
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    I don't think its the lack of balls and rather the lack of developers, money and time.
    Timeskip would mean updating EVERYTHING unless they close off complete continents into chromie time. Imagine the shitshow then. People will FLIP out.
    I honestly would welcome it. CLose of everything except Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdom. Update those after a timeskip of about 100 years and release them back via patches.
    They don't need to change everything at once, rebot kalindor and easter kingdoms, they have plenty of resources to do it.

    But that go against their law of more profit for less effort.

  10. #10
    Legendary! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Not sure about "completely", but it was irreparably damaged in WoD. Shadowlands is a kinda bad expansion with an unclear lore, but the environment itself is just a continuation of the story - we go there because it's there. Not unlike Kul Tiras or Pandaria.

    Draenor however is the alternate, past reality of an existing thing. Totally unnecessary and confusing.

    Zovaal and Sylvanas are horrible characters, but that is due to the writers' fault, not due to the fact that we are in the Shadowlands.

  11. #11
    I thought Cataclysm's plot was already pretty silly..

  12. #12
    yes lore in retail has been broken and boring since cata......and they keep "re" doing characters in ways that dont fit them braking the game even more.

  13. #13
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    The whole Sylvanas matter is simply fine, people are making a huge drama and echo out of nothing. Just like media does with many irl matters...
    Her story makes pefect sense from start til now. The problem is that a handful of loud people do not like it, so they turn it into being bad. Then you have all the sheep following their echo.

    The rest of the lore, however, is a completely different story. Ever since Cata things started to go south. With 10.0 they have a good chance as we seem to be starting somehow fresh.

    YOu need to consider that it is not easy to keep a story lne consistent through 2 decades. Lots of different people, factors and resources are involved... So changes are normally happening. For good and for bad.

  14. #14
    Lore is hot garbage right now, Sylvanas Lore is just a fetish from that fat virgin of Danauser, I really hope something gross will emerge about him so they can replace him.


    They cannot write a proper story, try to copy cat FF14 lore bits making thus a mess, we go all the dumbest cliché in the worst way possible.



    - Time Travelling with multiple reality but a single afterlife
    - Evil Mastermind behind the last 20 years of lore that will 101% die in 9.2 so amazing job
    - Due to Zovaal death by our hands we are basically the strongest living entities in the Warcraft Universe, the power creep scaling is so out of hand that we are basically the Doom Guy(s) of wow, we beaten dragons, elemental lords, titans, gods and gods++


    Plus the retcons are lazy tricks for lazy writers.

  15. #15
    Not sure WoW's lore has ever really been that great, but lately it's just completely ridiculous.

  16. #16
    No not even close only thing that changed is that people now get upset when lore is added or adjusted in Wow, but wierd enough they dont seem to care when same happens in other games.

    And Shadowlands isnt something new that they just made up becouse it could be a expansion, it has been know about for many many years and something players actually wanted to go to.

  17. #17
    The only really important thing about Lore is the ability to "immerse". I don't think it's ALL broken, but all the one I liked is completely Broken.
    Horde, Kaldorei, Forsaken, Enemies.

    And fixing that is going to take several expansions, even the Forsaken must basically be written from scratch.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-12-21 at 12:04 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    The only really important thing about Lore is the ability to "dive". I don't think it's ALL broken, but all the one I liked is completely Broken.
    Horde, Kaldorei, Forsaken, Enemies.

    And fixing that is going to take several expansions, even the Forsaken must basically be written from scratch.
    This is the right take. The worst damage is to the playable factions and races. The damage the Forsaken have taken for example will require substantial retcons to correct, the Horde as an institution a soft reboot. The Alliance just requires writing some characters better.

    Everything else is transitory and will go straight to the bin the second the expansion it's in runs its course. Who still gives an iota of a shit about the infinite Burning Legion considering it's had 0 impact on all expansions since it was mentioned, even the one literally called Legion? The primary vehicles through which the world is interacted with, that being the playable races and factions on the other hand are there forever and damage to them colours all that follows. See also Teldrassil vs. Thrall breaking the space time continuum to steal a necklace. One causes far more cosmic illogic than the other, but it also doesn't affect anything going forward and so people rightly don't give a shit. The same will follow from SL, as with WoD, where only the elements well recieved and recyclable will follow us on. Damage to the playable races, like TBC, Mists and BFA lasts much, much longer.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-12-21 at 12:11 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  19. #19
    We've had the Legion since when now? Nothing has been within our grasp since.

    I've read ever single novel, comic, short story, ingame book. Even the Traveller trilogy. Nothing really feels out of place. It was always a collection of more or less disjointed info that they eventually tried to organize better. I'm not sure why people have decided that "lore is destroyed" and whatnot. Sure, retcons, and that is annoying in itself, but nothing that says "no, this is so out of place it feels like a completely different world".
    The only thing that bothers me about the lore is when the game doesn't seem to care about things that happened in the books. Like Jaina realizing she is as bad as Garrosh if she keeps hating on the horde during Garrosh's trial and then proceeding to be hell bent on hating and destroying the horde the exact next expansion. Which for some reason was acclaimed by a lot of people.
    Because of this I feel most people give their opinion on lore without having the full picture and only judge the feeling a certain turn of events gives them. Like feeling bad Sylvanas burned the tree, therefore bad lore and such. Feeling good Jaina is hateful / righteous and liking the lore for it etc.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    Not sure about "completely", but it was irreparably damaged in WoD. Shadowlands is a kinda bad expansion with an unclear lore, but the environment itself is just a continuation of the story - we go there because it's there. Not unlike Kul Tiras or Pandaria.

    Draenor however is the alternate, past reality of an existing thing. Totally unnecessary and confusing.

    Zovaal and Sylvanas are horrible characters, but that is due to the writers' fault, not due to the fact that we are in the Shadowlands.

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