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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    except, he didn't do that? he send assassins to kill the high rankers, nowhere said he send people to kill civilians, who, would not help in anything with the plan
    Nor does it anywhere say something like that was wrong or dishonorable.

    He commanded the assassins and the assassins killed as many soldiers as civilians alike.

  2. #202
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Nor does it anywhere say something like that was wrong or dishonorable.

    He commanded the assassins and the assassins killed as many soldiers as civilians alike.
    That is a straight up lie.

    The orders were to kill the high ranker soldiers, no civilians were killed by his orders.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    That is a straight up lie.

    The orders were to kill the high ranker soldiers, no civilians were killed by his orders.
    No. Look at the side of the alliance and they confirm that the Horde also killed civilians.

  4. #204
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    No. Look at the side of the alliance and they confirm that the Horde also killed civilians.
    Do you know the word, insubordination, right?

    In horde side there is no civilians dead, they confirm that.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Do you know the word, insubordination, right?

    In horde side there is no civilians dead, they confirm that.
    So why does he care about Teldrassil?
    He ordered that they not burn it and the troops were "insubordination".

    Varock is responsible for both. But one had no weight in the plot so they ignored it. The Honor of Varock and the entire horde is just a plot tool not a real thing.

    Varock happily kills civilians who take up arms to defend the people from him and calls him Honorable. He sends hitmen to attack from behind and calls him Honorable. He breaks a country treaty and calls her Honorable. But when he attacks from behind to save an ally then he is disgraceful.

  6. #206
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    So why does he care about Teldrassil?
    He ordered that they not burn it and the troops were "insubordination".

    Varock is responsible for both. But one had no weight in the plot so they ignored it. The Honor of Varock and the entire horde is just a plot tool not a real thing.
    You are acting like he ordered or knew about the civilians killed before teldrasill

    your point is based on a false premise.


    Varock happily kills civilians who take up arms to defend the people from him and calls him Honorable. He sends hitmen to attack from behind and calls him Honorable. He breaks a country treaty and calls her Honorable. But when he attacks from behind to save an ally then he is disgraceful.
    lots of headcanon and appeal to emotion mixed in bfa bad lore.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You are acting like he ordered or knew about the civilians killed before teldrasill

    your point is based on a false premise.



    lots of headcanon and appeal to emotion mixed in bfa bad lore.
    Well read the novels again and look for videos of the event.

  8. #208
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Well read the novels again and look for videos of the event.
    nowhere in the novel, or the quests, is said that Saurfang ordered civilians death

    Later in the quests, he specifically says the civilians would be taken to answer questions and be liberated, with no harm on then. You know, play the other side of the game for a change too.

  9. #209
    Destroyed? No.

    Broken? Sure. But fixable.

    A good start might be getting rid of Danuser and his yes-people. Replace them with more competent writers.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    nowhere in the novel, or the quests, is said that Saurfang ordered civilians death

    Later in the quests, he specifically says the civilians would be taken to answer questions and be liberated, with no harm on then. You know, play the other side of the game for a change too.
    Read the entire allegations I gave. Not just the one that combines you to keep your lie.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    With all these First Ones, some kind of hidden super-realities inside other realities and so on, this is no longer felt by Warcraft. And that's not to mention plot holes like the Jailer's 5-D chess game or Sylvanas' actions and so on. It seems to me that even if you say that it was all a dream or a retcon in some other way, it will only hurt the lore even more, because everyone is tired of retcons.
    "not to mention plot holes like X Y Z " and X Y or Z aren't plot holes.... mate do you even know what a plot hole is? Or are you just using words you don't understand because you read them somewhere else?

  12. #212
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Read the entire allegations I gave. Not just the one that combines you to keep your lie.
    the allegations you made are fallacies, you are assuming Saurfang ordered civilians death because civilians died.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by m4xc4v413r4 View Post
    "not to mention plot holes like X Y Z " and X Y or Z aren't plot holes.... mate do you even know what a plot hole is? Or are you just using words you don't understand because you read them somewhere else?
    Dude, don't say stupid things, please

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    nowhere in the novel, or the quests, is said that Saurfang ordered civilians death

    Later in the quests, he specifically says the civilians would be taken to answer questions and be liberated, with no harm on then. You know, play the other side of the game for a change too.
    I think everyone should just remember how everyone was calling out the "war of thorns" as being a jumble of contradictions. And it should be remembered that way. "The burning of Teldrassil was a spur of the moment decision" & "yeah that tree should have taken weeks to burn but Sylvanas had special mages ready to go" is a total contradiction of logic, let alone the various out of character decisions throughout.

    It reeks of "Yeah daenerys was the only character who cared about the welfare of her people but lets have her commit genocide out of nowhere for the sake of drama" game of thrones finale logic. Big surprise Danuser actually liked it.
    Last edited by Ersula; 2021-12-28 at 08:46 PM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    I like how your example is just "garrosh", is like me saying all humans are Gaithos. See what Saurfang says in "good war" about that, fighting honorably and doing what is best fo your people don't include murdering for fun, genocide for no reasons tor attacking without provocation. Grosh in cataclysm still was someone who they didn't turn into an villain, he didn't wanted to kill people innocents.

    Garrosh only cared about rocs alter because only the orcs wanted to keep going with his conquest, Garrosh would welcome any race that had commitment.

    The orcs of the horde never attacked first in wow lifetime until BfA, it was all alliance, maybe people forgot since much time has passed



    yeah, and the fail logic here is how time didn't pass, it was not even 3 years since MOP, completely obnoxious

    - - - Updated - - -



    except this isn't true?, cause he didn't teldrasil?
    Saurfang was fine with the war after Sylvanas convinced him of it until the burning of the tree, which I presume is the genocide you were talking about.

    Off the top of my head there was the Broken Front in Icecrown in Wrath as a major event. Garrosh chewed the commander out for that, but only because the circumstances led to a Scourge army wiping out their forces too, not because he ordered his troops to attack Alliance from behind who were engaged with Scourge.

    Also saying they "never" attacked first is pretty extreme hyperbole. Unless you can remember the circumstances of all of the 70 odd thousand quests.

    The fail logic is we're not talking about the time between MoP and now, which is a bit longer than 3 years in universe. Sylvanas was painted a picture of a hypothetical a hundred years or more in the future. Where the Horde and Alliance descendents are living peacefully together, the Horde ones oblivious to the fact the Alliance ones are gearing up to annihilate based on the old horror stories they were told without knowing the context.

    I pretty much ignored Geco. Trying to read his post gave me a headache. Do the characters all have different spelled names in Spanish?

  16. #216
    Bloodsail Admiral m4xc4v413r4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Dude, don't say stupid things, please
    Says the guy that made an entire thread saying stupid things lol

  17. #217
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Saurfang was fine with the war after Sylvanas convinced him of it until the burning of the tree, which I presume is the genocide you were talking about.
    But he was not supposed to be fine with that, not him neither the rest of the horde, that is not his character and goes against of what the horde face during the end of mop, thats why the BfA premise make no sense.

    And no, he was not fine with teldrassil.
    Off the top of my head there was the Broken Front in Icecrown in Wrath as a major event. Garrosh chewed the commander out for that, but only because the circumstances led to a Scourge army wiping out their forces too, not because he ordered his troops to attack Alliance from behind who were engaged with Scourge.
    Horde and alliance were at odds and fighting each other since he came to azeroth, to him they were enemies, so isn't rly without provocation, he got chewed first by thrall, scolding him, and then, he took that by heart, but they forget about that later
    Also saying they "never" attacked first is pretty extreme hyperbole. Unless you can remember the circumstances of all of the 70 odd thousand quests.
    in vanilkla till wtlk the horde was always the street dog that the alliance poked with a stick, alliance attacked horde attacked back, it how things worked before Garrosh assuming.

    The fail logic is we're not talking about the time between MoP and now, which is a bit longer than 3 years in universe. Sylvanas was painted a picture of a hypothetical a hundred years or more in the future. Where the Horde and Alliance descendents are living peacefully together, the Horde ones oblivious to the fact the Alliance ones are gearing up to annihilate based on the old horror stories they were told without knowing the context.
    And im telling you, her picture didn't make any sense, and goes against what the entire faction learned 3 years ago from MOP.


    if they rly wanted to "win the war" they should have not rebeled against Garrosh, all other races and leaders in Garrosh reign didn't want him to escalate the war Varian started, they didn't want him to win, just stop,

    then suddenly, everyone is on board with what sylvanas doing, despite her reasons being weak and nonsensical, when Garrosh reasons were much more solid.

    Take vol'jin by example, dude made the entire horde fight against Garrosh because he didn't want a leader that focused on war like that, he then fucking died, come back, and say no shit about sylvanas, despite her causing countless of death and fucking up the horde, fully knowing he was played/controlled to put her there

    BfA only makes sense if cataclysm and mop didn't existed.

  18. #218
    Brewmaster Pheraz's Avatar
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    I wonder all the time if 3d printed winterqueens mean that there are 3d printed Elune in Zereth Lifelol by the first born of the life plane. If yes... I will never read a single quest text again. xD
    Zorn | Vynd | Pheraz | Silwyna | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle - My personal Kaldorei army <3 Plus lots of voidy high elves <3

  19. #219
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    I think everyone should just remember how everyone was calling out the "war of thorns" as being a jumble of contradictions. And it should be remembered that way. "The burning of Teldrassil was a spur of the moment decision" & "yeah that tree should have taken weeks to burn but Sylvanas had special mages ready to go" is a total contradiction of logic, let alone the various out of character decisions throughout.

    It reeks of "Yeah daenerys was the only character who cared about the welfare of her people but lets have her commit genocide out of nowhere for the sake of drama" game of thrones finale logic. Big surprise Danuser actually liked it.
    whole BfA premise was build on the game of thrones show school to "shock" people and in ignoring old expansions and lore, it was the first sign that gave two shits about logic and lore if it means a "big moment".

    If we sit down to talk about all the inconsistences in the war of thorns alone, like catapults shooting from a distance they should never be able to, to the tree burning in 10 minutes, we could stay here for an entire night.

  20. #220
    Thinking about fiction in general, lore is destroyed 1 of 2 ways:

    1. massive injection of time travel.
    2. a keeper of the lore decides to insert their new character at the expense of all established lore, and go around inserting it everywhere all over the place as the TRUE main character.

    WoW has had both problems. Its quite fascinating because its arguably the worst writing I have ever seen. They made ALL the mistakes in writing that competent writers know to avoid.

    They were setting up to make this error with Med'an. They had Med'an written as the greatest draenei, greatest orc and greatest human, and the greatest guardian of Tirisfal. They were going to weave Med'an's story all through the lore. The backlash was intense, so they pulled back. And then they went and did it with Zovaal instead, and got the same backlash.
    Last edited by Kokolums; 2021-12-28 at 10:33 PM.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

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