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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    My point stands. No bad guy was the bad guy in two expansions.
    He is bad in one and secondary in another.

    So Nzoth lost the possibility of having his expansion with the naga that the community had been waiting for about 10 years and in return he will be the secondary baddie in an expansion of the void.

    That expansion of Nzoth, Nialotha and Nagas was destroyed to make a patch.
    this is sadly facts.
    i remember the days when n'zoth was BY FAR the most powerful old god, and the only one who escaped the titans. the writers themselves said so at a blizzcon back then. bc of that, we had like 5 million fanmade xpacs about him, azshara, nazjatar, etc in all their glory.

    and now look at what we actually got instead. all of those things, stuffed into a filler addon, and even playing second fiddle to a pointless faction war. n'zoth himself retconned into being the weakest old god, instead of the strongest.
    what a waste of potential.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    yes lore in retail has been broken and boring since cata......and they keep "re" doing characters in ways that dont fit them braking the game even more.
    tbc and wrath lore was pure nonsense dogshit....the recent expansions are far better writen in every single aspect

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    Nah, I was expecting something a little more...ethereal? Ardenwald is probably the closest because they actually have an abundance of spirits running around. Everyone else just...doesn't? And like, a person dies in the "life" realm and their soul leaves the body to get filtered by a sorting hat....and I guess immediately given a brand new body in Bastion and Maldraxxus? 50% chance of a body in Revendreth?

    It's all just so physical, all of it, and there's a very inconsistent separation between the souls of the dead and the stewards of those souls, and the stewards in training vs just more anima to eat. I think if the souls of the dead where always, very clearly, just souls and only very powerful souls got bodies and training it would make more sense to me. But that's not what we are told, we are told everyone gets filtered into a new purpose.
    I mean, they’re all in a way “ethereal”. Hell, even the Death Pantheon are all “flesh” on terms of only skin alone. They lack everything else most mortals share

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    this is sadly facts.
    i remember the days when n'zoth was BY FAR the most powerful old god, and the only one who escaped the titans. the writers themselves said so at a blizzcon back then. bc of that, we had like 5 million fanmade xpacs about him, azshara, nazjatar, etc in all their glory.

    and now look at what we actually got instead. all of those things, stuffed into a filler addon, and even playing second fiddle to a pointless faction war. n'zoth himself retconned into being the weakest old god, instead of the strongest.
    what a waste of potential.
    …was that ever stated???

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    No, it's because people always beg for reboots and rewrites and never seem to consider that such a thing will lead to nothing but the same tripe unless the writing team is yanked upside down.
    or maybe you're projecting? danuser has ruined wow. only an idiot would reboot the lore to get rid of the bad stuff just to let the person who ruined it in the first place to write it again.

  5. #85
    Herald of the Titans Rendark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    tbc and wrath lore was pure nonsense dogshit....the recent expansions are far better writen in every single aspect
    It's funny that people think this.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    It's funny that people think this.
    Except it's true.
    Don't think I need to explain why TBC's lore was horrific.

    But WotLK lore literally got carried by WC3 lore. The only new relevant thing added to it was that we killed Arthas... that is literally it.

    Prior to the LK fight what did the expansion add to the lore?

    Fight this guy and his crew again - literal filler.
    Fight some random dragons here. - Filler
    Fight Old God nipple here. - Filler
    Have an anime tournament arc in front of the LK's house - ????

    then ICC, the only relevant thing to the lore that whole expansion.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    tbc and wrath lore was pure nonsense dogshit....the recent expansions are far better writen in every single aspect
    The wrath lore was pure nonsense dogshit...

    Sorry I'm just trying to come to terms with that statement. Generally held by most as the best expansion to date, and the lore in all the zones is great

    Wrath wasn't a writing masterpiece, but the simplicity in the stories worked. Wrath didn't feel like it was trying to play some 7D sUbVeRtInG eXpEcTaTiOnS with the player where Danuser is trying to convince you of his superior intellect

    But wrath doesn't matter anymore, the SL lore destroys any investment in the main storyline of the expansion, it was the Jailer all along!.......

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I'll give my rebuttal when you actually read the post and provide any sort of argument instead of rage-typing poorly written words and screaming "fantasy book" over and over.
    We already delivered any sort of argument in this very thread so... i am not tutoring

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    It's funny that people think this.
    TBC is a complete carfire and anyone arguing otherwise is unserious. It has all the TFT cast that are its villains go lolinsane off-screen, one of its races is the result of a retcon and the other has all its primary conflicts resolved by the end and has been on the wrong faction ever since. Understanding the conclusion of the final raid is contingent on reading a tie-in manga that, to remind everyone, centers around the Sunwell reincarnating as a big-titted farmgirl that gets into a relationship with an androgynous dragon.

    As for Wrath, while I will always maintain the Wrath-era Lich King is a sad parody of his two component characters in WC3, with Bolvar in Legion being much closer to WC3 Ner'zhul and Arthas never havin been captured since the RTS, the actual voice acting and presence to him and the effect the Scourge is shown to have from ICC to Zuldrak sell him all the same. Without that backing and purely on his own merit, he's basically the beta test for the Bald Man, up to and including killing Ner'zhul, the actual Lich King, off-screen to enable him, showing up like a Scooby-Doo villain to wave his sword at you and having allegedly planned everything even as you kick his ass across the continent while speaking chiefly in cliches. But since they're there, he's still solid as a baddie. What isn't solid is making his main opponent be a random generic paladin he had fuck all to do with up until the last five minutes. Its main story sins however are entirely in keeping with most WoW expansions and the issues it does have, even bits of staggering retardation like the Argent Tournament or the witch's brew of the expansion's LK effectively being a new character, "There must always be a Lich King" and the aforementioned Tirion business are par for the course for every WoW expansion.

    The main thing with Wrath is that it's the best all-rounder expansion the lore has had. Strong world building for Northrend but also for the factions going forward, as regards the Horde especially in setting up Cataclysm, a functional main villain, who skating on WC3's laurels or not still aced his role and an ending that didn't leave the setting poorer, but better. People took the piss out of "There must always be a Lich King" then and still do to a point now, but that was among the best decisions the writing team made in terms of keeping a core part of the setting and a baddie in the Scourge active for later stories, which is why Wrath's handling of this towers over basically every other expansion who are content to winnow the setting of antagonists. Legion is the most guilty of this, with BFA a close second. Wrath stumbled here and there, but it both capped off its story and set up future stories. Cataclysm did better work with the factions and the world, but it was springing off Wrath and its main plot was abysmal to an extent not repeated since and Mists was a massively more coherent work in all respects, but its long-term consequences were the handicapping off one of the two main races of the game to an extent it hasn't recovered from since. So nevermind being one of the better ones lore-wise, Wrath is in the highest tier.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-12-22 at 08:58 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    His plan hinged on absolutely none of this.. [...] It was just good managerial skills and an eye for finding/creating, and then using, opportunities.
    Yours is a good take. But the story is not presented like this at all.
    It all hinged on a number of retcons and strokes of luck that ultimatedly culminated in the opening of the Zereth Mortis, a McGuffin apparently only Death possesses and that's able to undo all reality.
    One can't help but wonder why the other cosmic forces are not deploying on the spot to prevent everyhing to go legs up.

    Also, if the Jailer is such a mighty schemer, allowing the Arbiter to break and his whole plan to be revealed is dumb. For him to be this godlike being with such a grasp on even the littlest chance of success, exposing Denathrius and allowing Sylvanas to keep existing are a couple of terrible blunders.
    And this is just surface level. It just doesn't add up.

    Now if actual retcons could have been presented to build up your version it could have been sketchy but at least somewhat cohesive. It's just that everything had to be done by a character made for Shadowlands and that will be forgotten by 10.1.
    Denathrius could have filled the same spot with stronger ties to the overarching narrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Nothing quite as hilarious as people making comments about reading and writing when they can't handle basic grammar.
    Lad's italian. I'd like to see you having even a speck of good pronounciation for anything other than english.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post

    …was that ever stated???
    eyyyup
    for example, Dave Kosak, in the developer chat 2012: "N’zoth is still lurking. The Titans couldn’t defeat it… maybe someday we’ll get our chance? Don’t expect to hear anything about him in Pandaria, though!"
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Yours is a good take. But the story is not presented like this at all.
    It all hinged on a number of retcons and strokes of luck that ultimatedly culminated in the opening of the Zereth Mortis, a McGuffin apparently only Death possesses and that's able to undo all reality.
    One can't help but wonder why the other cosmic forces are not deploying on the spot to prevent everyhing to go legs up.
    For all the plot holes in this narrative, the plausibility of using Azeroth as a power source to rewrite reality isn't one of it. The Bald Man's plan and Azeroth being the centerpiece that can end/destroy reality for whoever's got their hands on it has been the recurring bit since Chronicle. Using Azeroth to achieve their goal is also what the Void Lords are after, except their end game is to turn everyone into a tentacle monster, whereas Sargeras' was to turn her into his waifu and part of his Dark Pantheon. The only difference is in the specific plot means available. For Sargeras she'd keep her identity but turn morally gray, for the Void Lords she'd be a vessel and for the Bald Man she's fuel. But its the same power being used to achieve things of the same scale.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    eyyyup
    for example, Dave Kosak, in the developer chat 2012: "N’zoth is still lurking. The Titans couldn’t defeat it… maybe someday we’ll get our chance? Don’t expect to hear anything about him in Pandaria, though!"
    It was always dumb. If N'zoth was free all the time, he could easily take over Azeroth at any moment. Not to mention, the Titans couldn't have brought order to Azeroth if they hadn't defeated him and just let him be free.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    It was always dumb. If N'zoth was free all the time, he could easily take over Azeroth at any moment. Not to mention, the Titans couldn't have brought order to Azeroth if they hadn't defeated him and just let him be free.
    It helps to remember that the Titan to Old God power relation back then was something else. In the Knaak books about the War of the Ancients it's mentioned that the Old Gods together could defeat Sargeras. Titans back then weren't planet-sized and their power was a lot more vague while Old Gods were more directly outside the powers at the time, with the Twilight using both Light and Shadow magic. Mists, with its references to the Pantheon being dead and the final Titan was likely the first expansion written with the post-Chronicle idea of the Titans as world souls living in planets and the Old Gods as just being fragments of a bigger thing. So N'zoth being sealed because they couldn't beat it but had to lock it up was written under that premise.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    For all the plot holes in this narrative, the plausibility of using Azeroth as a power source to rewrite reality isn't one of it. The Bald Man's plan and Azeroth being the centerpiece that can end/destroy reality for whoever's got their hands on it has been the recurring bit since Chronicle. Using Azeroth to achieve their goal is also what the Void Lords are after, except their end game is to turn everyone into a tentacle monster, whereas Sargeras' was to turn her into his waifu and part of his Dark Pantheon. The only difference is in the specific plot means available. For Sargeras she'd keep her identity but turn morally gray, for the Void Lords she'd be a vessel and for the Bald Man she's fuel. But its the same power being used to achieve things of the same scale.
    I missed the part where Zereth Mortis uses Azeroth to undo everything. Can't check right now, but is it needed to use Azeroth or it all hinges on Azeroth and Zereth Mortis is akin to one of the Forges?

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    I missed the part where Zereth Mortis uses Azeroth to undo everything. Can't check right now, but is it needed to use Azeroth or it all hinges on Azeroth and Zereth Mortis is akin to one of the Forges?
    Yes, the place is even called the Machine of Originations. By itself it can create and delete templates and afterlives, which are essentially mini-realms, but to do it on a universe-scale it needs a power source, which is why the Bald Man has rigged it up to Azeroth in the final encounter, which has the juice to pull it off.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Yes, the place is even called the Machine of Originations. By itself it can create and delete templates and afterlives, which are essentially mini-realms, but to do it on a universe-scale it needs a power source, which is why the Bald Man has rigged it up to Azeroth in the final encounter, which has the juice to pull it off.
    Oh alright. Thanks for the heads up.

    The chance of the sword being used and the Azshara cannon being fired are rising up!

  18. #98
    I'll put it to you like this, caught up with a friend tonight and we got to talking about Warcraft, he hasn't played since WoTLK, and his girlfriend has never played, over the space of about an hour of just talking shit and explaining what's happened in the storyline his girlfriend said "That sounds like a C grade movie and dumb as hell" and my friend who played WoW said "Im glad I left after WoTLK cause it doesn't even sound like warcraft anymore"

    People can go in circles and argue individual points and stories, motivations, etc. but the objective fact is that the Lore of Warcraft now is a dumpster fire of terrible stories, plot convenience, contrivance, and just straight-up shitty writing from people who shouldn't be allowed near a fantasy setting, you can argue subjectivity all you want but everything pre cata(some of cata was ok) was point A to point B all the way to Z and an ending, now, however, the story pacing and writing is almost schizophrenic in that it jumps from wildly different thing to different thing and ignores its own story in favor of pushing the current narrative further.

    We started out as adventures fighting a grounded war against magical enemies who were distinct and had motives and means (except maybe original BC Illidan storyline).

    We're now currently fighting a living god for the control of literal existence after a person started a war (that we largely ignored) by burning a tree for a plot device that is never fully explained and will be forgotten about come 10.0.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Oh alright. Thanks for the heads up.

    The chance of the sword being used and the Azshara cannon being fired are rising up!
    Blizzard stayed consistent with a plot point for their climax instead of inventing a new one, which are baby steps, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

    Honestly, the story lost a lot by not going full camp and having the Bald Man be doing this soul-sucking business from the interior of the sword that's been turned into a giant runeblade. If you're going to go ham with universe-ending, god-templates and the like, go full ham. Hand to my heart, and contrary to most everyone on the forum, I've actually found Shadowlands better in handling its main antagonist than Legion. I find the giant bland baddie's villainous plot better constructed on a mechanistic, plotting level, but its lack of style and over-focus on details and obtuse nonsense let it down where a giant burning man stabbing a planet had more panache.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Blizzard stayed consistent with a plot point for their climax instead of inventing a new one, which are baby steps, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

    Honestly, the story lost a lot by not going full camp and having the Bald Man be doing this soul-sucking business from the interior of the sword that's been turned into a giant runeblade. If you're going to go ham with universe-ending, god-templates and the like, go full ham. Hand to my heart, and contrary to most everyone on the forum, I've actually found Shadowlands better in handling its main antagonist than Legion. I find the giant bland baddie's villainous plot better constructed on a mechanistic, plotting level, but its lack of style and over-focus on details and obtuse nonsense let it down where a giant burning man stabbing a planet had more panache.
    Sargeras had years of characterization behind him. Zovaal has been built, redesigned and will be looted in a matter of two years, and has literally nothing interesting about him that's not been lent by someone else. His actual armor is basically the end mob of Torghast, he's wearing the Tarragrue.

    I wholeheartedly agree on the campiness. This whole story is taking itself way too seriously when the scale is completely ass backwards by now. Hell, I'll raise your runeblade point and use the Azshara cannon to fire all the Azerite collected by Magni to stall the inevitable and try and save the day.
    Warcraft started with a Warhammer bootleg, why not taking some more FF7 along the way.

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