Poll: Sylvanas was SHOCKED when Zovaal stated that his goal was domination. Were you?

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  1. #1

    The Real Reason behind the lore inconsistencies

    We all understand that the story is totally incoherent.

    To go with the latest cinematics, take for example Sylvanas working for Kel' Thuzad's and Arthas' boss. Total absurdity.

    Now many in the community come up with this reason: "well she did the genocide it because she thought Zovaal would set us all free".

    The thing is, that is total headcanon.

    For all we know, in game, from Zovaal's quotes and his history from the get go, is that he is totally evil ("mustache curling villain", as described).. he is evil in a cartoon-villain way, totally one-sided.

    I.e. let me ask you a question, from your perspective, from what you've seen and know IN-GAME about Zovaal, did it shock you that at the the end of the he said "All shall serve me"? You can answer that on the poll.

    Personally, I found it totally normal, because that is exactly what this guy has always been about. Hell, to advance his goals he (indirectly) mind-controlled Sylvanas herself via Arthas, as well as countless/millions others (in Maw and outside).

    Therefore, how is Sylvanas "shocked", where she supposedly knew at least had our knowledge in respect of Zovaal, plus more.

    The only reasonable (out of universe, breaking the 4th wall) explanation for Sylvanas' actions (and for all other characters' actions) is the following and it's clear as day:

    The current lore team at Blizzard (Danuser and co.) is trying to quickly close the established Warcraft lore "chapter" (from WC3), so they can introduce their own new Characters/Lore etc.

    To pursue that goal, they swiftly (in basically 1,2 patches) introduced totally new characters with no build-up, made them responsible for manipulating the whole story since before WC3 (so as to prop THEIR NEW CHARACTERS and DIMINISH the ALREADY ESTABLISHED characters from PREVIOUS LORE WRITERS)...

    so they "could make the story their own".

    In that process, and because it was done so quickly, A TON, literally HUNDREDS of MAJOR INCONSISTENCIES have emerged.

    Do you think that the current lore writers had the right to do that, i.e. to rewrite in 1 patch the whole lore just to advance their own new characters in favour of the ones established by previous writers, so they could make the story "their own"?

    Personally, I think that is way too egotistical. And it actually shows on how many people dislike/quit because of it.
    Last edited by Giannis-GR; 2021-12-21 at 08:05 AM.

  2. #2
    His whole schtick is Domination magic. Sylvanas genuinely falling for anything he promises just makes her a dumbass in retrospect, and it goes everything about her untrusting characterization as established since WC3.


    As for new characters ...

    They can add them anytime they want. They just have a terrible track record for making players like em, or remembering they even exist.

    Yrel was a new character. Thrown by the wayside, made into a potential villain. Zappyboi was popular. What is he doing lately? Hell even Garrosh was a new character at one point in time, and they done him dirty.

    The writers end up having to go back to old characters because nostalgia sells. That's the gist of it. That's practically Blizzard's entire business model in the past few years.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-12-21 at 08:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #3
    ...or more than likely this is a consistently ran narrative that has changed hands multiple times over hell almost 20 years now

    You are seeing seasonal rot in Warcraft and blaming it on ego

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis-GR View Post
    We all understand that the story is totally incoherent.
    No, I don't.

    Not to sound too rude, but you really should first understand the lore before making a useless thread and poll. I know the lore can be confusing and contradictory at first, but for that there are plenty of videos on YouTube that explain the lore well.

    People on MMOC and this thread are just really cringe when it comes to recent lore...
    Last edited by RobertMugabe; 2021-12-21 at 08:14 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    No, I don't.

    Not to sound too rude, but you really should first understand the lore before making a useless thread and poll. I know the lore can be confusing and contradictory at first, but for that there are plenty of videos on YouTube that explain the lore well.
    Ok then I need to define by what I mean "incoherent".

    Of course, through retroactive recontextualization (i.e. retcon), the lore writers can make anything seem coherent, e.g. they gave a reason why the Jailer's forces in WC3 were fighting with each other.

    In that sense, they can give "retroactively" a reason for anything, e.g. they can say "Illidan was working for Sargeras all along" and they can make a couple of quest giving the "manipulative plot".

    The thing is, if they gave a couple of quests on why "Illidan was working for Sargeras for 20.000 years all along and it was all an act so they could be together at the prison and plan their grand scheme"...

    Would you consider that incoherent?
    I would.

    Now, if you answer "No it would not be incoherent because they explained in 15 quests why Illidan was working for Sargeras all along", then we have a different definition of "incoherent". Which is fine

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis-GR View Post
    The thing is, if they gave a couple of quests on why "Illidan was working for Sargeras for 20.000 years all along and it was all an act so they could be together at the prison and plan their grand scheme"...

    Would you consider that incoherent?
    I would.

    Now, if you answer "No it would not be incoherent because they explained in 15 quests why Illidan was working for Sargeras all along", then we have a different definition of "incoherent". Which is fine
    It's true, they didn't, they wrote a book about how he'd secretly spent TBC fighting the Legion all along and that was always his objective, including when he was talking about how he'd actually beaten Arthas at ICC or when he spent all of TFT running an errand for Legion's second in command for fear that KJ would break his kneecaps. This after TBC itself had both him and all his friends go insane off-screen while turning the draenei from savages to space-faring eredar relatives who didn't actually corrupt Sargeras, it was the nathrezim who did it.

    On-topic: Sylvanas is a blithering moron, due to the triple factor of how the Bald Man is about as convincing as Cata-era Deathwing in the role of manipulator with none of the great visual design to make up for it, how her entire relationship with him is a retcon invented in the past two years and that in its role as a retcon, what that relationship actually entailed to bring her to the belief that he's an ends-justify-the-means dude is also not shown.

    As for the writers wanting to brush away old characters to focus on new ones, it's the opposite. Their new material, which already isn't good, is diminished by the shoehorning of old elements to it at the expense of both. The Kel'thuzad retcon is the most singularly inept and concentrated character assassination of the expansion, but to a lesser extent for every competent revisit of old elements like Uther's arc you have the faction leaders we carry on like leprous mules into a story where they neither belong nor have anything to contribute, weighing down an already weak story with empty ballast. SL's greatest sin isn't the poor quality of its retcons, though God are they poor, it's that they're useless for the telling of the story and raise more questions than answers while the ground it tries to tread with its pseudo-Avengers cast consists of nothing but dull retreads. From Jaina being stuck in a nightmare world, Thrall meeting his mother and thinking over where he might have gone wrong with Garrosh to Baine being an oxygen thief, it's all been done before and better. You could cut all of them as well as every mention of the Bald Man allegedly being behind everything from the opening of the Dark Portal to the Hindenburg disaster and even if you don't replace it with anything the story would exponentially improve for lack of bloat and for not opening up gaping chasms in current and prior stories.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-12-21 at 11:36 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  7. #7
    It would have been fine if:

    -Blizzard themselves didn't tried to hint us about something "behind the scenes" or "5d chess" you name it
    and
    -not only 8 dungeons, but 12+ and at least 1 in 9.1 (talking about end-content, so M+)
    (+1: hysteria about genius covenant locking)

  8. #8
    There are gaps in the story simply because just as it happened in WoD, they are skipping one planned patch because the expansion did not perform as better as expected.
    This Jailer was meant to be as good of a villian as Arthas was, but they failed to tell his story.
    Something I agree on is that right now they just want to get rid of him as quick as possible to try something different.

  9. #9
    They enslaves people from BFA to SW and then She is surprised that his plan is still to enslave people.
    WTF?

  10. #10
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    His whole schtick is Domination magic. Sylvanas genuinely falling for anything he promises just makes her a dumbass in retrospect, and it goes everything about her untrusting characterization as established since WC3.
    .
    again this is a horrible fucking complaint, because i guess by that logic we should kill bolvar cause dude raises undead, uses shadow and frost magic, and is literally called "the jailer of the danmed" dude must be the most evil shit ever.

    we should go ask those amazingly nice scarlett crusade people to help, they must be the goodest of good guys, cause they use the most loving of magics out there, the holy light!

    oh no wait, its almost like good people can have dark sinister magics, and bad people can have the best

  11. #11
    On Sylvanas in particular, it was already made clear that she was not herself and her alter ego was just doing evil things, there is no more to it than this. That's how they describe her nonsensical actions. In the end she wasn't shocked, instead the "serve" thing awakened something within that evil alter ego that broke her obedience.
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Blizzard do what the players want all the time.

  12. #12
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    On Sylvanas in particular, it was already made clear that she was not herself and her alter ego was just doing evil things, there is no more to it than this. That's how they describe her nonsensical actions. In the end she wasn't shocked, instead the "serve" thing awakened something within that evil alter ego that broke her obedience.
    no it was not made clear... that is literally not what happened my dude...

    there is no "good" or "bad' sylvanas. there is only SYLVANAS. that fragment we see is just a part of her, a part that was locked away when she died catching up with what happened.
    the sylvanas we play with in 9.2 is literally the exact same sylvanas as before, just realizing she has been used this entire time. and making sure the jailer is dealt and she gets her revenge, with before she gets her judgement.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    again this is a horrible fucking complaint, because i guess by that logic we should kill bolvar cause dude raises undead, uses shadow and frost magic, and is literally called "the jailer of the danmed" dude must be the most evil shit ever.

    we should go ask those amazingly nice scarlett crusade people to help, they must be the goodest of good guys, cause they use the most loving of magics out there, the holy light!

    oh no wait, its almost like good people can have dark sinister magics, and bad people can have the best
    The issue isn't that Domination is inherently evil, it's that it inherently goes against Sylvanas' stated desire for freedom.
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  14. #14
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    No, I don't.

    Not to sound too rude, but you really should first understand the lore before making a useless thread and poll. I know the lore can be confusing and contradictory at first, but for that there are plenty of videos on YouTube that explain the lore well.

    People on MMOC and this thread are just really cringe when it comes to recent lore...
    yeah pretty much, it is so fucking funny people saying they ruined sylvanas and now shes just gunna be a goody two shoes and the lores ruined cause they are retconning everything sylvanas did.
    while its obvious they have literally spent 0 seconds on the PTR, cause none of that is true. They see the cinematic, then parrot what their favorite angry youtuber says about it word for word like a religion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    The issue isn't that Domination is inherently evil, it's that it inherently goes against Sylvanas' stated desire for freedom.
    Yes, and so is fel being inherently evil, and becoming and working with demons is against what demons hunters statement for slaying demons is, and yet...

    and also the fact again... bolvar is also in use of domination magic and undead and yet he is good.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    no it was not made clear... that is literally not what happened my dude...

    there is no "good" or "bad' sylvanas. there is only SYLVANAS. that fragment we see is just a part of her, a part that was locked away when she died catching up with what happened.
    the sylvanas we play with in 9.2 is literally the exact same sylvanas as before, just realizing she has been used this entire time. and making sure the jailer is dealt and she gets her revenge, with before she gets her judgement.
    Dude, watch the Sylvanas cinematic. She was forced to watch as her evil self was doing evil things, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Blizzard do what the players want all the time.

  16. #16
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    Maybe. When not chained by existing lore framework even bad writers may produce something worthwhile. Warcraft definitely needs new blood.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    No, I don't.

    Not to sound too rude, but you really should first understand the lore before making a useless thread and poll. I know the lore can be confusing and contradictory at first, but for that there are plenty of videos on YouTube that explain the lore well.

    People on MMOC and this thread are just really cringe when it comes to recent lore...
    +1

    /10char

  18. #18
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    Dude, watch the Sylvanas cinematic. She was forced to watch as her evil self was doing evil things, no?
    no, she was not forced to watch her do these evil things, she was literally talking to herself. she was RELIVING those moments, the cinematic even explains it that she is stuck her own soul tormenting itself.

    think of it like this, if you grabbed a photo of you as a kid, then yanked that kid out of the photo and starting telling them of all the horrible shit that happened to you after that photo, how your dog died, your parents died, your grandparents died, your best friend killed themselves, how you had to give up on your dreams, fell in love, got married, she cheated on you, got divorced, have been alone since etc etc. that is still you, they are not some different person, not some "good side", that you, that will grew up to BE you, but they are all at once, learning of all the things that happened to them, and shit thats traumatizing.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    again this is a horrible fucking complaint, because i guess by that logic we should kill bolvar cause dude raises undead, uses shadow and frost magic, and is literally called "the jailer of the danmed" dude must be the most evil shit ever.

    we should go ask those amazingly nice scarlett crusade people to help, they must be the goodest of good guys, cause they use the most loving of magics out there, the holy light!

    oh no wait, its almost like good people can have dark sinister magics, and bad people can have the best
    Now compare the amount of torture dimensions ran by the Scarlets to those of Zovaal.
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  20. #20
    While I voted no, I have to be honest and say that I didn't even know what to expect because I didn't expect anything. The Jailer is the endboss for the upcoming raid and his reasoning and motivations are as shallow as they were during the Shadowlands' announcement trailer.

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