Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness

[Amnaught]

Darn, did not expect Wanda to turn into such a psychopath so quickly. Didn't feel very believable to suddenly go this much ham and brutally kill people left and right no probs. And OMEGALUL Tony Stark was right all along in Civil War. Overall, movie was not that great and did not seem to push general narrative much. It was competent enough, we got a new char that can jump multis, perfect for the current setting and Strange got some new powers, but I kinda expected more from the title alone. Horror and gore elements were nice addition, and Bruce Campbell cameo was great. Such a Sam Raimi move.

Yeah, her turning into a complete murderous maniac was unexpected. Like the Darkhold obviously corrupted her, but, it was narrated as if she was supposed to just genuinely believe in what she was doing -- getting her kids.

Would have been a lot more believable, for me at least, if she was trying to *save* her children from horrible deaths, instead of simply killing her alternwte self to abduct them. Like show her getting terrible visions of Gargantos swallowing the kids. But then have the reveal be that he created the visions.

Also. Where were Vision and Pietro??????

[bledgor]

Yeah, her turning into a complete murderous maniac was unexpected. Like the Darkhold obviously corrupted her, but, it was narrated as if she was supposed to just genuinely believe in what she was doing -- getting her kids.

Would have been a lot more believable, for me at least, if she was trying to *save* her children from horrible deaths, instead of simply killing her alternwte self to abduct them. Like show her getting terrible visions of Gargantos swallowing the kids. But then have the reveal be that he created the visions.

Also. Where were Vision and Pietro??????

Please forget that vision is alive in white visions body now, and just fucked off, but is certainly still alive. He is only the person that Wanda, you know loved so badly that she mind trap/torture thousands of people and created imaginary kids with, but naw fuck him just gotta get the kids back.

That is my issue with phase 4, everything has to be bigger, but when you get to magic that literally bends/changes reality, the author/writers just make it do whatever they want, and it fucks with logic because so many issues could be solved easily, but aren't because it isn't dramatic/showy. Magic is fun when you are expressly told(and it is respected) what magic can't do, the limitations, the things to overcome, the price to pay.

It is one of the massive fucking blunders from the Wheel of Time show where a character either completely resurrects or at minimum easily/freely heals a person grievously injured (eyes/body burned out bad). If you can heal death why would I care what happens because it can be reversed, and I lose interest when there are no stakes (aka multiverse where no one can truly die).

Wish they had gone with a different story, going into multiverse/time travel requires a writer to be VERY smart and careful or it becomes nonsensical bullshit.

[PhaelixWW]

Please forget that vision is alive in white visions body now, and just fucked off, but is certainly still alive. He is only the person that Wanda, you know loved so badly that she mind trap/torture thousands of people and created imaginary kids with, but naw fuck him just gotta get the kids back.

Alternately, she's already tried to get Vision back and failed. She's had more time to accept that she's lost him.

And more importantly, this is the DarkHold's influence on her. Her dreams keep telling her that "her" kids are out there, somewhere. The dreams are not whispering to her about Vision, so maybe he's not out there for her to latch onto and obsess over.

From a storytelling standpoint, it's one thing for her to convince herself that she can step into an alternate Wanda's shoes and be a mother to her children. But it's another thing to imagine doing the same thing to another Vision in addition to the two kids.

[bledgor]

Alternately, she's already tried to get Vision back and failed. She's had more time to accept that she's lost him.

Except we aren't shown any of that, and from what we know she has been studying the darkhold the whole time, and completely forgot about the man she apparently loved so much to destroy thousands of peoples lives. The movie had some good things, plot was not one of them.

And more importantly, this is the DarkHold's influence on her. Her dreams keep telling her that "her" kids are out there, somewhere. The dreams are not whispering to her about Vision, so maybe he's not out there for her to latch onto and obsess over.

From a storytelling standpoint, it's one thing for her to convince herself that she can step into an alternate Wanda's shoes and be a mother to her children. But it's another thing to imagine doing the same thing to another Vision in addition to the two kids.

Press x to doubt, but whatever, we know for a fact vision is out there, we don't know what the darkhold supposedly said to drive her comically evil, and considering the way the writing has dropped from an already mediocre level I suspect the writers forgot about vision themselves.

From a storytelling standpoint there are infinite easier ways to get children, including making some in many ways, or since the kids were never biologically hers and she is a war orphan herself I am sure there are many children in needed of an adopted mom she could have saved. The story in phase 4 has been very lackluster.

[Glorious Leader]

This is the exact opposite of what I explained to you. An audience doesn't dictate. They listen.

It's a product to be consumed so that logic cannot apply here. The kids in art school said they would drink my blood. Edgy hispter meme.

Now having said that I absolutely love dog shit and that was fantastic. Alot of neat set pieces just things that worked scenes that were cool. Not maybe entirely strong throughout but 7/10 would watch again. Coulda used more humor. I like the waititi movies because they have that.

[exochaft]

Except we aren't shown any of that, and from what we know she has been studying the darkhold the whole time, and completely forgot about the man she apparently loved so much to destroy thousands of peoples lives. The movie had some good things, plot was not one of them.



Press x to doubt, but whatever, we know for a fact vision is out there, we don't know what the darkhold supposedly said to drive her comically evil, and considering the way the writing has dropped from an already mediocre level I suspect the writers forgot about vision themselves.

From a storytelling standpoint there are infinite easier ways to get children, including making some in many ways, or since the kids were never biologically hers and she is a war orphan herself I am sure there are many children in needed of an adopted mom she could have saved. The story in phase 4 has been very lackluster.

Yeah, there's a TON wrong with this movie, and the motivations are all over the place. A lack of Vision literally and motivation-wise in MoM is completely missing the point of what got us to Wandavision to begin with. Granted Wandavision went into the toilet at the end in so many ways, we can still take the results of what happen and what lead up to the events prior to MoM as canon. The Wanda we get in MoM is not even remotely the same in as the Wanda at the end of Wandavision, and the Darkhold can't even explain away the inconsistencies.

When it comes to MoM and Wanda's quest for children she just imagined, the first question that popped into my head was... well, I guess it wasn't the first (there was a looong line of questions that we generated), it was "Why do you need to kill another Wanda and steal her children?" We're in the multiverse, and considering the likely infinite possibilities out there... you could find a universe where Wanda died and left her kids behind, and you could basically adopted them. Heck, I think even Strange would have a remote chance of helping in that endeavor. Another option is to settle down and have new kids, especially since the original kids weren't even real. Even if you just blame the Darkhold for everything, it doesn't stop other people from thinking of these possibilities and/or suggesting them.

Still, the ultimate issue is that all this stems from Wanda losing vision... so her main quest should be to find Vision, maybe even make babies (somehow). Actually, that was another question that popped into my head: who's the daddy of all these multiverse Wanda kids? I highly doubt the writers thought about this (or anything really), but let's assume there's a Vision in every multiverse popping out babies... yes, there's infinite multiverses probably so it could be anyone, but the movie's not smart enough to consider this so assume it's Vision. Why is Vision not popping up in any multiverse? How does Vision make babies? Why is Wanda even bothering when there's basically another Vision in her own universe who could potentially make babies through some hand-waving magic? There's even more questions that stem off of just Vision when it comes to Wanda's motivations and actions, let alone the impact it has on the rest of the movie.

If this was the sole issue with the movie, you could move past it... but it's not. Almost every facet of this movie has the exact same issues of ignoring/contradicting MCU shows and movies that came before it, ignoring/contradicting itself, and everyone being insanely dumb so things can happen as they do. What's frustrating is that I can safely say almost everything that's an issue could be fixed with potentially just minor tweaks (some need major tweaks or removals most likely). The movie's worst enemy is the writers, or whatever Disney Marvel overlords dictated must be in the movie, or both. The current phase 4 of the MCU just loves shooting itself in the foot when it could be so much better than it is if they actually gave a damn.

[PhaelixWW]

Except we aren't shown any of that, and from what we know she has been studying the darkhold the whole time, and completely forgot about the man she apparently loved so much to destroy thousands of peoples lives. The movie had some good things, plot was not one of them.

I thought the plot was okay, it just could (should?) have been fleshed out more. Like, there was nothing inherently wrong with it that a bit more exposition couldn't ameliorate.

Press x to doubt, but whatever, we know for a fact vision is out there, we don't know what the darkhold supposedly said to drive her comically evil...

Except... we do know, at least in part, because she told us. She dreamt every night about "her" kids, and every morning she woke up to the nightmare of not having them. It's absolutely clear in context that the DarkHold was whispering to her: "you can have them back..."

From a storytelling standpoint there are infinite easier ways to get children, including making some in many ways, or since the kids were never biologically hers and she is a war orphan herself I am sure there are many children in needed of an adopted mom she could have saved.

Except... they are biologically hers, just not dimensionally, I guess you could say. It's unclear who the father is supposed to be in the alternate universe; it could be that she was already dreaming about them before the events of WandaVision, and so created the Westview kids in their likeness, so it doesn't mean that Vision is somehow the father.

Besides, the DarkHold isn't going to corrupt her into... becoming a foster mother. Again, the events of this movie are largely the consequence of the DarkHold's influence on Wanda, not her just coming to a rational decision to threaten multiple universes.

The story in phase 4 has been very lackluster.

Somewhat disagree. We're used to the fully fleshed-out Phase 3 stories, but that's over. We're in the rebuilding phase now, so things have to have time to build up.

On the TV side, Loki, WandaVision, Hawkeye, and What If...? were all fantastic. Moon Knight was good, but fairly unconnected... so far. Only F&tWS was a bit less than stellar, and it was still good. On the movie side, Eternals was clearly the low point, sure, but Shang-Chi was good and SM:NWH was also mostly great. DS&tMoM was pretty solid, too.

I mean, those RT scores for the above shows/movies (even Black Widow, which I view as more of a holdover Phase 3 movie) are:

• 91% - WandaVision
• 86% - Falcon & the Winter Soldier
• 92% - Loki
• 79% - Black Widow
• 47% - Eternals
• 92% - Hawkeye
• 94% - What If...?
• 91% - Shang-Chi & the Legend of the Ten Rings
• 93% - Spider-Man: No Way Home
• 87% - Moon Knight
• 74% - Doctor Strange & the Multiverse of Madness

That's 6/11 above 90%, 8/11 above 85%, and only Eternals with a significantly bad score.


Just for reference, the RT scores for the start of the MCU?

Phase 1:

• 94% - Iron Man 1
• 67% - The Incredible Hulk
• 72% - Iron Man 2
• 77% - Thor
• 79% - Captain America: The First Avenger
• 91% - Avengers 1

Phase 2:

• 79% - Iron Man 3
• 66% - Thor: The Dark World
• 90% - Captain America: The Winter Soldier
• 92% - Guardians of the Galaxy 1
• 76% - Avengers: Age of Ultron
• 83% - Ant-Man

Even if you only count movies (which you really shouldn't, considering the production value of the current slate of Marvel shows), the first five movies (even including the ho-hum Black Widow) of Phase 4 average out to 76.8%, while the first five movies of Phase 1 only averaged 77.8%. Adding in the TV shows brings Phase 4 up to 84.2%, as the shows by themselves combine for 90.3%.

[bledgor]

I thought the plot was okay, it just could (should?) have been fleshed out more. Like, there was nothing inherently wrong with it that a bit more exposition couldn't ameliorate.

A fuck ton of plot holes, I mean there were literally hundreds of ways they could have handled every, I mean the monster just portal to a volcano, or open a portal below it and then close it cutting it in half like he did to whatever the guy in Infinity War. Not to mention a monster comes and Stranges first thought it to go to Wanda, and forgive her for mind controlling and torturing a ton of thousands just because? They strong armed to story to fit the end goal rather than developing a story to carry them to the end.

Except... we do know, at least in part, because she told us. She dreamt every night about "her" kids, and every morning she woke up to the nightmare of not having them. It's absolutely clear in context that the DarkHold was whispering to her: "you can have them back..."

Yet says fuck all about the man she wanted to have kids with, the whole reason for her break down? I mean come on, suddenly imaginary kids > the man she when insane for, whom wasn't mentioned once in the film? Again bad writing that is ham fisted to get to the end they imagined instead of the one they developed.

Except... they are biologically hers, just not dimensionally, I guess you could say. It's unclear who the father is supposed to be in the alternate universe; it could be that she was already dreaming about them before the events of WandaVision, and so created the Westview kids in their likeness, so it doesn't mean that Vision is somehow the father.

Besides, the DarkHold isn't going to corrupt her into... becoming a foster mother. Again, the events of this movie are largely the consequence of the DarkHold's influence on Wanda, not her just coming to a rational decision to threaten multiple universes.

Well if they are biologically hers, then they aren't visions, which means she could make them again, or get orphans, or get Chavez to take her to a dimension where Wanda died but the kids are alive and rescue them, wouldn't even need to steal powers then. The dark hold made her comically evil apparently, where she lost all logic. Also the kids in Wandavision were created with magic (the fucking line was so fucking bad), just magically make them again you comically evil twat.

Also the darkhold has such a hold on her, then she breaks it even though it is so strong and destroys it in every reality? Oh please, again not naturally developed, fucking shoe horned in to fit the story they wanted instead of the one they made.

As for your numbers, Mcdonalds is one of the best selling foods of all time, doesn't make it quality or good food. Phase 4 has had some terrible movies and shows, with fucking horrible plots, that are filled with more holes than the book of the same name. Just because some people are fine with eating mcdonalds every day doesnt mean I am going to pinch my nose and say it is good. They now only focus on the "bigger story" which leads to the current story really struggling, not to mention they are trying to get people involved by selling the new generation of avengers literally on the corpses in some cases of the old and I don't feel the connection with them to justify that, like the only people in phase 4 I actually cared to watch was Strange and Wanda, and both of them got destroyed in my eyes with the story, there were infinitely better ways to tell their story than what we got, and I am not going to smile just because they gave me a bad story featuring them.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Except we aren't shown any of that, and from what we know she has been studying the darkhold the whole time, and completely forgot about the man she apparently loved so much to destroy thousands of peoples lives.

If "White Vision" is anything like he was in the comics...he's not really the same man anymore.

[bledgor]

If "White Vision" is anything like he was in the comics...he's not really the same man anymore.

Considering the writing he could also be god now, who knows, Wanda surely doesn't as she didn't bother to check, which is funny considering Wandavision happened because of him.

[PhaelixWW]

A fuck ton of plot holes, I mean there were literally hundreds of ways they could have handled every, I mean the monster just portal to a volcano, or open a portal below it and then close it cutting it in half like he did to whatever the guy in Infinity War.

So... basically the innate problem of almost any story having to do with magic that has very broad rules, including in the comic books themselves. If you're going to get stuck on this, then you likely should never watch another comic book movie ever again.

Yet says fuck all about the man she wanted to have kids with, the whole reason for her break down? I mean come on, suddenly imaginary kids > the man she when insane for, whom wasn't mentioned once in the film?

You seem to be very unclear on things. The kids were very real, just in another universe. The man, on the other hand, has been dead for a while and was only imaginary the last time she saw him. She also had a chance to say goodbye to his imaginary self.

And then, you know, the very important fact that the DarkHold was specifically whispering to her about her kids and she was seeing them in her dreams every night.

Like, this isn't hard to understand.

Were it not for the DarkHold and those dreams, she probably would have actually retired to a cabin instead of just pretending to.

Well if they are biologically hers, then they aren't visions, which means she could make them again, or get orphans, or get Chavez to take her to a dimension where Wanda died but the kids are alive and rescue them, wouldn't even need to steal powers then.

What part of "the DarkHold corrupted her thoughts" is unclear to you, exactly? And who says they're definitely not Vision's? And seriously? "...she could make them again, or get orphans..."? Those aren't even the same thing at all, even if the DarkHold wasn't corrupting her thoughts. (But it did.)

And they addressed why she wanted those powers in the movie.

Did you even watch it? It certainly doesn't seem like you actually watched it. Or WandaVision, for that matter.

The dark hold made her comically evil apparently, where she lost all logic. Also the kids in Wandavision were created with magic (the fucking line was so fucking bad), just magically make them again you comically evil twat.

I mean, that's the very nature of the DarkHold, corrupting you into thinking that you need to use its powers to get what you want and that there's no other way.

Also the darkhold has such a hold on her, then she breaks it even though it is so strong and destroys it in every reality? Oh please, again not naturally developed, fucking shoe horned in to fit the story they wanted instead of the one they made.

It doesn't directly control you, it corrupts your thoughts. Wanda had a moment of clarity when she was forced to face the fact that she couldn't really have what it was promising her she could. This happened to Illuminati Strange, too. A moment of clarity, but no promise that they wouldn't be tempted again. Strange had himself killed. Wanda destroyed the book and dropped a mountain on herself.

As for your numbers, Mcdonalds is one of the best selling foods of all time, doesn't make it quality or good food.

I didn't use box office numbers, now did I? I used critic review numbers, which are very much supposed to be a measure of quality.

You're bad at this.

Phase 4 has had some terrible movies and shows, with fucking horrible plots, that are filled with more holes than the book of the same name.

So now you just reveal your true nature, that-which-I-will-not-name. You really just hate the MCU entirely. You should just save yourself the trouble of coming up with all these awful responses, then.

- - - Updated - - -

Considering the writing he could also be god now, who knows, Wanda surely doesn't as she didn't bother to check, which is funny considering Wandavision happened because of him.

The only person who witnessed Cataract being given Vision's memories was... Vision. And then he ceased to be, ostensibly without telling Wanda about it. As far as Wanda knows, Cataract is still a SWORD-controlled body without the "soul" of Vision, and who tried to kill her.

Like... go actually watch WandaVision if you're unclear about this.

Also, rewatch the very last mid-credits scene of WandaVision, too, for that matter, to see the moment the DarkHold starts whispering to her about her kids being alive and needing her help.

Or, you know what, I'll make this easy for you:

Spoiler: 

[bledgor]

So... basically the innate problem of almost any story having to do with magic that has very broad rules, including in the comic books themselves. If you're going to get stuck on this, then you likely should never watch another comic book movie ever again.

In part yes, you have to constrain it or it just becomes dues ex machina, which is boring/shit writing. You can have limitations and still make it good, Iron man was enjoyable even though arc technology is nonsense, it bent but didn't break reality for me, unlike Wanda just doing whatever she wants because she wants it.

You seem to be very unclear on things. The kids were very real, just in another universe. The man, on the other hand, has been dead for a while and was only imaginary the last time she saw him. She also had a chance to say goodbye to his imaginary self.

They weren't real for Wanda in Wanda vision, they were fake kids/magically made kids that she had for what, a few weeks? If that? They are real in other universes, but NOT FOR OUR WANDA. The man was real, was the source of all her aches, is possible back, but she doesn't know because she suddenly just was over it, but not the fake kids she had a for a little while? Makes Wanda look weak.

And then, you know, the very important fact that the DarkHold was specifically whispering to her about her kids and she was seeing them in her dreams every night.

Okay, why the kids and not Vision the man she is supposed to love/wanted to have kids with? Also pretty thin/lame corruption with dreams, I dream shit all the time don't suddenly go mad and try to get it. Again makes Wanda look weak, you mean be okay with this tier of writing I'm not.

Like, this isn't hard to understand.

Were it not for the DarkHold and those dreams, she probably would have actually retired to a cabin instead of just pretending to.

Perhaps, but with how easy Wanda seems to break now probably would have had someone honk at her and gone on a killing spree.

What part of "the DarkHold corrupted her thoughts" is unclear to you, exactly? And who says they're definitely not Vision's? And seriously? "...she could make them again, or get orphans..."? Those aren't even the same thing at all, even if the DarkHold wasn't corrupting her thoughts. (But it did.)

Perhaps because having an after credits scene of someone reading a book and going straight to them being comically evil in the intro of the movie because of magically evil item that was just introduced is lazy/bad writing for me? I don't like when writers just suddenly add something to make characters do something, I like building up, creating things slowly, and letting people that are smart/looking realize what is/possibly is coming next because they are thinking. Just saying "because it corrupted her" is a how, but not a good or developed one, you might be okay with it, doesn't mean all of us have our standards at that level.

Also are you seriously? Vision isn't biological, he is made of metal, THEY FUCKING CANT BE HIS CHILDREN UNLESS YOU ARE IMPLYING METAL CAN PROCREATE. Yes, she wanted children, the children she had were magically made bullshit, so she could very well have sex to make them, or magic them again, or look for a universe where idk the Wanda is dead who had children and go save them. If you can't get that I guess you just wanted her to be evil instead of developed.

And they addressed why she wanted those powers in the movie.

Did you even watch it? It certainly doesn't seem like you actually watched it. Or WandaVision, for that matter.

I lost attention halfway through the movie, it was just pretty visual images to disguise a shitty hole filled story, but I know she wanted to power to jump universes "because what if they get sick and I need something from another verse?" which is just crap, she can literally morph the body of Black Bolt, can alter reality, and dream walk to other worlds, again comically evil strikes again. As for Wandavision seems like you and the writers didn't watch it, because at every instance you forget the second half of the title, VISION.

It doesn't directly control you, it corrupts your thoughts. Wanda had a moment of clarity when she was forced to face the fact that she couldn't really have what it was promising her she could. This happened to Illuminati Strange, too. A moment of clarity, but no promise that they wouldn't be tempted again. Strange had himself killed. Wanda destroyed the book and dropped a mountain on herself.

I get that, but corruption doesn't mean you have to be comically evil/lose all intelligence, real evil is intelligent, and knows how to hide to get what you want. Yet she just went with all this absurd things to get her ends and only did so because "Darkhold corrupts you", didn't realize corruption takes your intelligence. She had a moment of clarity after killing hundreds after facing her kids sure, but again its after she manages to walk over all this incredibly powerful and supposedly intelligent foes (like seriously with Reed Richards? everything he did was what I expect from a highschool student, not the smartest man in the universe). I get the whole absolute power absolutely corrupts, but it wasn't done well here, and Strange was another bad set of plot decisions where they just keep making him act stupid (starting from No way Home, the whole situation could have been avoided by talking to Peter about the spell for 2 minutes).

I didn't use box office numbers, now did I? I used critic review numbers, which are very much supposed to be a measure of quality.

You're bad at this.

I never said box office numbers? I was making a comparison that just because a lot of people enjoy a mundane product doesn't make it good. RT isn't the end all measure of quality, fucking LOL. Thinking that comic book movies are a cherry of cinematic expression is laughable at best mate, you are terrible at this.

So now you just reveal your true nature, that-which-I-will-not-name. You really just hate the MCU entirely. You should just save yourself the trouble of coming up with all these awful responses, then.

No, I enjoyed phase 1, 2 was good, and Infinity War was great, since then it has been down hill, FAST. Now you reveal your true nature, you are a simple follower, unable to think critically about anything and only be told what to enjoy. I should have realize when you had such nonsensical arguements where you were devoid of logic and could only spout "but my DARKHOLD CORRUPTIONS".

The only person who witnessed Cataract being given Vision's memories was... Vision. And then he ceased to be, ostensibly without telling Wanda about it. As far as Wanda knows, Cataract is still a SWORD-controlled body without the "soul" of Vision, and who tried to kill her.

Like... go actually watch WandaVision if you're unclear about this.

I know you aren't trying, I never said she knew, I said she didn't even fucking bother to check or care, she saw her vision go off and fight the white vision, and now after all the bullshit she doesn't care what happened? That this fake vision might be going around tarnishing the legacy of the man she loved? It is completely fucking illogical, she love him enough to mind control/torture a town but not stop the fake vision? Like if you don't understand this you might need to think about what the word love means, or try to find it so you can understand how it works.

Also, rewatch the very last mid-credits scene of WandaVision, too, for that matter, to see the moment the DarkHold starts whispering to her about her kids being alive and needing her help.

Or, you know what, I'll make this easy for you:

Spoiler: 

I've answered this before, in fact typing answers to you is illogical because you won't recognize bad writing. Have fun talking to yourself.

[JDL49]

Agents of SHIELD didn't really go off-canon until things got all wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey. It definitely absorbed the impact of CA:TWS on SHIELD, and incorporated the Sokovian Accords from A:AoU. By the time it ignored the Snap from A:IW, the cast had already jumped around in time quite a bit, so I guess the best way to deal with it is to imagine that it became a branching timeline at that point.

Exactly. Seasons 1-5 are no problem, it's 6 that's the main culprit.

[Devilyaki]

Why didn’t Wanda hook up and have her kids the old fashioned way?

[PrimiOne]

I'm baffled by the obsession viewers have developed in the last 2 decades about plot holes. Baffled.

Cinema it's mainly an emotional art , sure it can contain an intellectual discourse but for the great majority of films the goal is create emotions in the spectator.That emotion needs an internal logic because narrative relies on causality but don't lose sight that logic is just the vehicle of emotions in cinema... just that.

There's SO many masterpieces of cinema filled with so many plot holes as a gruyere cheese that just work and what about the poetic cinema that by its very nature does not have a logical structure? Should be throw Bergman and Kiarostami and Aronofsky in the trash bin?

Plot holes is everything people talk about when discussing a film like cinema is some kind of puzzle where all the pieces must fit ( meanwhile we can hear Buñuel squirming in his tomb) and nothing more....just a system of equations that solves every unknown quantity.

This is just NOT cinema.I can understand the argument that an specific lack of logic broke your inmersion and from that point you couldn't forget that and put you out of the story, it broke the spell , but I have the impresion that this is more about looking smart in the interwebs ( bonus point if you didn't even notice and just read it somewhere after watching the film) and I know that emotion can't be properly discussed so you resort to analyze if every equation got solved.

Why this character did that and not this? Why didn't he thought in this? Why Wanda obsessed on this and not on that? ....Because that's the story they wanted to tell. Because logic is not the human basic impulse but emotion ( have you ever heard of Freud?) and we constantly do irrational things...because cinema is about making you feel thrilled or scared or heartbroken or filled with joy or hope....

So here we are : I don't like this movie because I could think another sequence of events that in my mind sound more consistent. That's perfectly ok...create another movie in your mind but...did you laugh? Did you find the characters adorable? Did you feel threatened when the villain turned and looked at you? Did you felt anything?

Because this is the real barometer of a movie: give me movies that are FULL of plot holes but transmit an emotion and , meanwhile , you can keep being smart by obsessing about the big space Rose had in the table so Jack could have survived the sinking of the boat.

[PhaelixWW]

In part yes, you have to constrain it or it just becomes dues ex machina, which is boring/shit writing. You can have limitations and still make it good, Iron man was enjoyable even though arc technology is nonsense, it bent but didn't break reality for me, unlike Wanda just doing whatever she wants because she wants it.

But... that's basically what chaos magic is in Marvel lore:

Chaos Magic is the name of a magic so powerful that it was thought to be non-existent by even the modern Sorcerer Supreme himself. This magic can manipulate, warp, and reconstruct the fabric of existence and reality to the user's very whims, and bring about total destruction to the cosmos.

They weren't real for Wanda in Wanda vision, they were fake kids/magically made kids that she had for what, a few weeks? If that? They are real in other universes, but NOT FOR OUR WANDA. The man was real, was the source of all her aches, is possible back, but she doesn't know because she suddenly just was over it, but not the fake kids she had a for a little while? Makes Wanda look weak.

Except... they were quite obviously real. She didn't just imagine up kids that happened to be exactly like the kids of hers in that other universe. Clearly she'd already started having dreams about the kids and incorporated them into her Westview simulation.

And Cataract tried to kill her and was fought off by her Vision, the actual manifestation of the soul that she loved. Cataract was like a zombie version of Vision, without anything aside from the physical form in similarity to her Vision. It was hardly the "real" Vision, and she already knew that.

Besides... DarkHold.

Wanda already had tried and failed to bring Vision back and accepted the fact that he was gone, so the DarkHold's corruption sent her after the kids instead. It basically whispered to her that even though Vision was gone, her kids were still alive out there, and needed her.

Also pretty thin/lame corruption with dreams, I dream shit all the time don't suddenly go mad and try to get it. Again makes Wanda look weak, you mean be okay with this tier of writing I'm not.

Gee, tell us that you don't get it without telling us you don't get it.

The dreams are separate from the DarkHold's corruption. Strange was having dreams, too, right? The DarkHold just used Wanda's dreams of her kids to twist her into thinking that she needed to get to them by using its power. After all, Wanda was clearly having dreams about the kids before she ever came into contact with the DarkHold, hence their presence in Westview exactly as they were in the other universe.

Perhaps, but with how easy Wanda seems to break now probably would have had someone honk at her and gone on a killing spree.

I mean... Wanda wasn't broken. Driven, yes. Broken, no. She even tried to be (or at least tried to convince herself that she was being) merciful and reasonable.

Perhaps because having an after credits scene of someone reading a book and going straight to them being comically evil in the intro of the movie because of magically evil item that was just introduced is lazy/bad writing for me?

Sure, there could have been some more exposition on some of this transition (which I believe I said in my first post after watching the movie), although that was kind of what WandaVision was supposed to be about, wasn't it? But it's clear why it happened. That doesn't make it a plot hole, just something that could have used more screentime.

And again, she's not "comically evil", as she's not trying to hurt anyone unless they get between her and her goal. She's just convinced herself (or allowed the DarkHold's corruption to convince her, more accurately) that the ends justify the means and that she's owed this. She explains this to Strange when he first talks to her and realizes that she's the one after America Chavez.

I don't like when writers just suddenly add something to make characters do something, I like building up, creating things slowly, and letting people that are smart/looking realize what is/possibly is coming next because they are thinking. Just saying "because it corrupted her" is a how, but not a good or developed one, you might be okay with it, doesn't mean all of us have our standards at that level.

It's like you're forgetting that WandaVision even happened. They could have bridged the gap a bit more, but it was all there. She spent the entire series grieving and lying to herself to try and force reality to bend to her will. At the end, it appears that she's come to her senses and realized that she can't get what she wants...

...at least for a very few minutes, before we see her fully embracing her Scarlet Witch persona and delving fully into the DarkHold. The implication is crystal clear: she didn't really give up like she told Monica Rambeau. Instead, the DarkHold got its hooks into her and she started trying to find a way to get to her kids.

Again, this probably should have been spelled out a bit more for the people, like yourself, who clearly are incapable of reading nuance in context, or who didn't bother watching WandaVision. I literally said as much a few posts back:

I thought the plot was okay, it just could (should?) have been fleshed out more. Like, there was nothing inherently wrong with it that a bit more exposition couldn't ameliorate.

Also are you seriously? Vision isn't biological, he is made of metal, THEY FUCKING CANT BE HIS CHILDREN UNLESS YOU ARE IMPLYING METAL CAN PROCREATE.

See: chaos magic and its ability to warp reality. Who says Vision can't in some universe have been given a human body made by chaos magic?

Yes, she wanted children, the children she had were magically made bullshit, so she could very well have sex to make them, or magic them again, or look for a universe where idk the Wanda is dead who had children and go save them. If you can't get that I guess you just wanted her to be evil instead of developed.

Except... dreams and the DarkHold. She was seeing very specific kids that she felt were her own in her dreams, and the DarkHold was whispering that she could use its power to get those very kids.

Are you even human? Can you not understand how someone could not want "replacement" kids if they could get their own back? Especially if they were convinced that those kids needed her help?

I lost attention halfway through the movie

Yes, clearly you fail at paying attention to detail. This is not surprising, given the rest of your discourse.

I know she wanted to power to jump universes "because what if they get sick and I need something from another verse?" which is just crap, she can literally morph the body of Black Bolt, can alter reality, and dream walk to other worlds

And yet, the DarkHold was playing off her fears that she wouldn't be able to. That fear is very human, regardless of her powers.

I get that, but corruption doesn't mean you have to be comically evil/lose all intelligence, real evil is intelligent, and knows how to hide to get what you want.

Except... she didn't go "comically evil" or "lose all intelligence". That's just your woefully melodramatic interpretation that just misses the mark entirely.

She had a moment of clarity after killing hundreds after facing her kids sure, but again its after she manages to walk over all this incredibly powerful and supposedly intelligent foes (like seriously with Reed Richards? everything he did was what I expect from a highschool student, not the smartest man in the universe).

I will agree that the Illuminati should have lasted at least half a round before being wiped out. That was over way too quickly. The ending of the first episode of Invincible comes to mind as a better example of what it should have been.

I never said box office numbers?

You basically said: "you can't always judge quality based on sales". This was the most accurate comparison. The RT score, on the other hand, is an amalgamation of many different professional reviewers, who are judging it based on quality.

So, like, literally what you were originally talking about.

I was making a comparison that just because a lot of people enjoy a mundane product doesn't make it good.

I wasn't even using the "a lot of people enjoyed it" portion of the RT score: the audience rating.

Which is even higher (90.2%) than the critic rating (76.8%).

RT isn't the end all measure of quality, fucking LOL. Thinking that comic book movies are a cherry of cinematic expression is laughable at best mate, you are terrible at this.

Yeah, sorry, but I'll take their combined score from literally hundreds of professional movie critics over some internet rando with delusions of self-importance.

And no, you're still bad at this.

No, I enjoyed phase 1, 2 was good, and Infinity War was great, since then it has been down hill, FAST.

You're welcome to your opinion, of course. But don't try to pass it of as objective fact, when there's so much evidence that the majority of people disagree with you.

Now you reveal your true nature, you are a simple follower, unable to think critically about anything and only be told what to enjoy.

Omegalulz. There's literally evidence throughout this thread to disprove that, champ.

I know you aren't trying, I never said she knew, I said she didn't even fucking bother to check or care, she saw her vision go off and fight the white vision, and now after all the bullshit she doesn't care what happened? That this fake vision might be going around tarnishing the legacy of the man she loved? It is completely fucking illogical, she love him enough to mind control/torture a town but not stop the fake vision? Like if you don't understand this you might need to think about what the word love means, or try to find it so you can understand how it works.

Except... for all she knows, Vision was able to destroy Cataract, since he rejoined her and Cataract was nowhere around. Also, it was fairly obvious that Cataract was controlled by SWORD (she saw them working on his body), so she had very little reason to suspect that he was out there "tarnishing Vision's legacy" as some random evil force.

Besides, and more importantly, at the end of WandaVision she retreats into her grief and dives into the DarkHold. She doesn't appear to care about the rest of the world anymore, only working to be reunited with her kids.

I've answered this before, in fact typing answers to you is illogical because you won't recognize bad writing. Have fun talking to yourself.

You're just upset that all your bad-faith BS is being called out.

Makes sense. Toodles.

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I'm baffled by the obsession viewers have developed in the last 2 decades about plot holes. Baffled.

Star Wars is a prime example of this. It wasn't until sequels, books, etc. started filling in the universe that people started expecting and demanding everything to be fully explained.

Though I think "plot holes" is a bit of a misnomer here. Just because something isn't fully explained doesn't make it a plot hole, even if you think that the story or the emotional impact suffers from the lack of explanation.

A real plot hole is more where something isn't explained and you can't think of a plausible explanation to fill the gap, at least without twisting the story and/or characters into pretzels.

[Devilyaki]

Did anyone actually like America Whatever her name, seem rather bland, just another “believe in yourself” character..

[Sorshen]

Did anyone actually like America Whatever her name, seem rather bland, just another “believe in yourself” character..

She's pretty much the same in the comics, she's a tie-in to Secret Wars and Wanda's children.

[Darththeo]

I'm baffled by the obsession viewers have developed in the last 2 decades about plot holes. Baffled.

I am as well. Also with the habit of pointing this as "plot holes" that are. Plot holes are specifically errors in the consistency of a plot.

Not everything unexplained in a film is a plot hole. But so many "plot hole" lists on the internet include things like that.

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Yeah, there's a TON wrong with this movie, and the motivations are all over the place. A lack of Vision literally and motivation-wise in MoM is completely missing the point of what got us to Wandavision to begin with. Granted Wandavision went into the toilet at the end in so many ways, we can still take the results of what happen and what lead up to the events prior to MoM as canon. The Wanda we get in MoM is not even remotely the same in as the Wanda at the end of Wandavision, and the Darkhold can't even explain away the inconsistencies.

Why can't the Darkhold do so? The Darkhold was said numerous types that it extracts a toll on the reader in the movie. It is like saying that the Dark Side influence in Star Wars can't explain away inconsistency in Anakin's behavior in the prequels. Like, it explained to you what is happening and why and you go "That's not good enough!"

When it comes to MoM and Wanda's quest for children she just imagined, the first question that popped into my head was... well, I guess it wasn't the first (there was a looong line of questions that we generated), it was "Why do you need to kill another Wanda and steal her children?" We're in the multiverse, and considering the likely infinite possibilities out there... you could find a universe where Wanda died and left her kids behind, and you could basically adopted them. Heck, I think even Strange would have a remote chance of helping in that endeavor. Another option is to settle down and have new kids, especially since the original kids weren't even real. Even if you just blame the Darkhold for everything, it doesn't stop other people from thinking of these possibilities and/or suggesting them.

The multiverse is infinite. She could spend her life seeking that universe. And there is an advantage to taking another's children that you are ignoring. Those boys have Wanda as their mother, so our Wanda can just step in and take over and the children may not see a change in their lives. If she goes to a universe where that Wanda died, the boys could have been raised by someone else or may not understand how their "dead" mother returned.

I know you are ignoring the Darkhold's influence, but you really shouldn't.

Still, the ultimate issue is that all this stems from Wanda losing vision... so her main quest should be to find Vision, maybe even make babies (somehow). Actually, that was another question that popped into my head: who's the daddy of all these multiverse Wanda kids? I highly doubt the writers thought about this (or anything really), but let's assume there's a Vision in every multiverse popping out babies... yes, there's infinite multiverses probably so it could be anyone, but the movie's not smart enough to consider this so assume it's Vision. Why is Vision not popping up in any multiverse? How does Vision make babies? Why is Wanda even bothering when there's basically another Vision in her own universe who could potentially make babies through some hand-waving magic? There's even more questions that stem off of just Vision when it comes to Wanda's motivations and actions, let alone the impact it has on the rest of the movie.

I love how you think you are pointing out inconsistencies, but have ignored that Wanda doesn't need vision to "make" her children. Wandavision literally explains this to you. The reason Wanda lost her children is that she did not understand her magic well enough. Wanda could literally just make her children again with more understanding of her magic. She turned to the Darkhold to find her answer, and again, the Darkhold impacts the reader of it. It alters how they think.

The father of the multiverse kids does not matter. It does not matter if it was Vision or someone else. You don't need answers to questions that do not matter to the plot.

If this was the sole issue with the movie, you could move past it... but it's not. Almost every facet of this movie has the exact same issues of ignoring/contradicting MCU shows and movies that came before it, ignoring/contradicting itself, and everyone being insanely dumb so things can happen as they do. What's frustrating is that I can safely say almost everything that's an issue could be fixed with potentially just minor tweaks (some need major tweaks or removals most likely). The movie's worst enemy is the writers, or whatever Disney Marvel overlords dictated must be in the movie, or both. The current phase 4 of the MCU just loves shooting itself in the foot when it could be so much better than it is if they actually gave a damn.

You have yet to actually point out a "contradiction" or where it ignored anything. Please provide that. What you have done is point out you misunderstand and ignore what the movie and MCU told you, but that isn't the same as contradicting the MCU or ignoring it.

You are like those buzzfeed or similar sites that go "10 plot holes with X" and point out one actual plot hole that is so minor it didn't matter and the other 9 are not holes and are explained. Seriously, you're argument is the type of argument of the CinemaSins youtube channel.

It is not a plot hole when you are told why something happened and you do not like your answer. You can say the answer is "insufficient", but a movie does not need to explain everything in detail. Multiverse of Madness does not need to explain how the Darkhold impacts the reader, because the only way to do that is with unneeded exposition.

[Koriani]

Wish they had gone with a different story, going into multiverse/time travel requires a writer to be VERY smart and careful or it becomes nonsensical bullshit.

I felt this way from the day they announced they were going into 'multi-verse' type of stories for further MCU development.

Because yeah, those 'type' of stories tend to negate any sort of tension over the loss/death/tragedy of whatever character's story. "Its an alternate timeline" so nothing ever really "matters", especially as you get into more and more timelines of the same characters (or alts of same characters) so no, no one's ever really 'lost' - Don't worry, you can 'see them again' in a different universe (and/or we just move them from that universe to this one!).

They just end up more like 'dream sequence episodes' of tv shows. Where the entirely story doesn't matter because none of it effects the 'main story' developing. They might be interesting 'one offs' for fans to see characters in a different way, with a different story-choice, what-have-you - an interesting 'character study' episode, or fun-romp seeing them do things they normally woulnd't, at best. But to have entire series and runs of movies taking a 'one off' idea and turning it into this ongoing plot - ugg, it makes more and more of the ongoing 'plot development' pointless and 'static' because the development doesn't always matter to the rest of the plot/characters in the other 'universe stories'.

And yeah - big 2nd reason - most writer's (of any media) can't pull ANY of this type of stuff off /well/. The deeper the multi-dimensional 'timey-wimey' stuff gets, usually the worse/off the wall/nonsensical the writing ends up getting. Which is fine if you don't mind the popcorn movie (or tv show, or book), turn your brain off and just enjoy the fun ride. But when movies are 2-3 hours long, movie after movie, doing this insane crazy shit to justify a multi-verse storyline but losing tension the whole time because of all the plot armor and/or because its all ONLY alternate-timelines (So nothing matters to the main-verse story) - ugg - it stops being fun. At least for me. There's only so much hack writing (or B-C grade scifi) I want to spend 3 hours watching.

And as much as I do like the Dr. Strange character and greatly enjoyed the first movie - and am going to watch this one (for sure - big Raimi fan, enjoyed his Spider Man Trilogy too, love his vibe) - I too wish they'd gone with different stories and NOT a multi-verse approach with the MCU. Because the 'parts of these plots don't matter at all' is quickly burning out to the 'I don't give two shits about any of these characters anymore because who knows if any of this even matters or will stick.'

Hell, I'm getting so burned out on the entire MCU I don't even find myself caring if any of the characters die, permanently, in all timelines. And I use to care about these movie characters. Just sucks. The "darkside" to the brilliant multi-year plan to ingrain Marvel into our collective psyches. I've always thought, since the first Ironman, that if they 'pulled this off' it was a BRILLIANT move on their part and good job for it! (as a business/profit/ensuring success idea). But there is also a cost - and for me - that cost is rapidly killing my original enjoyment of this genre, and these movies and characters. :/ I don't consider the addendum "get everyone convinced the expanding universe across media is also required watching" as brilliant - as I think that will ultimately kill the gravy-train for everyone. But only time will tell.

(Sorry can't discuss movie - haven't seen it yet!)