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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by JDL49 View Post
    The sense of what I'm getting from the critics is that that wasn't enough.
    I don’t read critic reviews anymore, and everyone is different on how they want to be spoon fed details, so there’s never a Goldilocks zone on that. Was it not enough background of why she was sad, why she was the villain, or why an avenger was murdering people right and left? I know the answer to the first two, I don’t feel the third was justified, so that’s my problem with her portrayal. Maybe we’ll get Wandavision 2 and redeem her, or maybe Olsen wanted out of the MCU and this was a way to burn a bridge. Either way it’s a shame if we’re done with the character, especially like this.

  2. #282
    Dreadlord sunxsera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    Honestly, I went in with low expectations because I kept seeing people review it low.

    But, I guess it just depends on the person? In my eyes, it was a very good movie. Doctor Strange isn't my favorite character, but the performances were excellent. There was a smart twist. There was a good lesson. I guess the cosmic concepts may be a little harder to understand for a few folks, but I had fun with it.

    The tone did definitely go in a horror direction in a few moments. This definitely isn't a movie to show your kids. There were three moments where I went "holy shit". But it didn't color the whole movie for me.

    8/10 from me.
    Your "holy shit" moment was totally unexpected for me too. I thought "wow .. they really did this!" Was nice, i liked it.

    Overall i feel people start to get a bit annoyed from Multiverse / P4 and the introduction of more and more heroes so fast. Kinda feels rushed like GoT season 8.
    No way home also felt like on a completely different level compared to the other P4 movies. There was just so much more character development involved.
    In 15 years they won't be hyped to see america chavez like they were when they saw doc ock again. They'll probably be like 'america who?'

    Hope Guardians 3 & Thor will change this a bit.

    6.5/10 from me.

  3. #283
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDL49 View Post
    The sense of what I'm getting from the critics is that that wasn't enough.
    Critics are never happy and what they want is weird.

    Modern critics are often out of touch with the general public right now.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  4. #284
    Everyone's going to have their own opinions of it.

    For myself, I enjoyed it...I wouldn't put it in the top 10 MCU flicks...but I wouldn't put it in the bottom 10 either.

    I like Sam Raimi. If you don't like Sam Raimi....that will probably impact your enjoyment of this film.

    I liked Wandavision. If you don't like Wandavision...that may impact your enjoyment of this film. If you haven't seen Wandavision and don't intend to...the movie sums up the relevant details for you very quickly. If you haven't seen Wandavision but would like to...I would reccommend watching it before this film...just to avoid spoilers.

    I like the MCU. If you don't like the MCU...why are you even in this thread? Go find something you do like. You'll be happier for it.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    I like the MCU. If you don't like the MCU...why are you even in this thread? Go find something you do like. You'll be happier for it.
    A lot of people loved Game of Thrones. Very, very few people loved Season 8. I think many of the people here arguing see the MCU in much the same way. They loved movies, characters, or stories that the MCU has provided, but do not like the direction it is going and see the movies/shows they are creating as inferior products compared to what got them there.

    Its Rocky 3 (many stories do this theme, but that is the one I go to).... you won, you are at the top, but instead of continuing to perform at the top of your game, you let other things intrude in on your life/work. Where once the MCU was "how do we tell great stories of characters you root for and identify with even though they are bigger than life heroes?"..... they have become "how do we inject our messaging into products we don't care about using characters we don't care about because we weren't there to make them what they were?"

    The MCU now is riding off the coattails of movies that made you care about characters. All they care about is posturing and milking as much money as they can out of the customer. (and I say this as someone that went to see Dr Strange this weekend so they got my money for this one)


    I want movies that make me (and more so my young boys that watch these) care about characters and learn good lessons. Captain America did that. Ironman did that. Thor did that.

    The movies now...... don't.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Critics are never happy and what they want is weird.

    Modern critics are often out of touch with the general public right now.
    This really doesn't make sense and either is heavily biased toward amateurism or misunderstands media critique.

    Critics don't have to be "in touch with the general public". That is not even the goal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I like Sam Raimi. If you don't like Sam Raimi....that will probably impact your enjoyment of this film.
    I greatly enjoyed Rami's past films outside of the superhero genre. I did not enjoy the direction of the film or his Spider-Man films previous. I wouldn't say one enjoying one or the other is indicative of enjoyment of this film.

    One could very well enjoy a previous Marvel MCU film(s) and not enjoy another. Likewise, the creative responsible for any given work.

    Sure, I love a number of Carpenter's films. But not all of them and not among such equally either.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    This really doesn't make sense and either is heavily biased toward amateurism or misunderstands media critique.

    Critics don't have to be "in touch with the general public". That is not even the goal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I greatly enjoyed Rami's past films outside of the superhero genre. I did not enjoy the direction of the film or his Spider-Man films previous. I wouldn't say one enjoying one or the other is indicative of enjoyment of this film.

    One could very well enjoy a previous Marvel MCU film(s) and not enjoy another. Likewise, the creative responsible for any given work.

    Sure, I love a number of Carpenter's films. But not all of them and not among such equally either.
    Doesnt it sort of make their job obsolete if they arent in touch with the general public?

    Otherwise you are catering to an incredibly small and niche scene?

    A bit the same with high fashion for me - like the really edgy freeky stuff. Makes no sense for the average consumer - at least they dont really try and present it as such either though.


    I just saw the movie - i was actually pleasantly suprised by some of the rists it took. As i explained to my gf i'm not sure what to make of the whole multiverse can of worms though. It really did not do good for wow - and i have a feeling its not going to do great for MCU either.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Doesnt it sort of make their job obsolete if they arent in touch with the general public?

    Otherwise you are catering to an incredibly small and niche scene?
    In the past before there were sites to aggregate how moviegoers on average felt about a movie, I could see their value for giving a general idea of how good a movie is. Nowadays though we have that in spades. So honestly how they give value should shift.

    Instead of us hearing how all critics feel, people should find critics they tend to agree with and use theirs reviews as a barometer of whether to see a show or movie. Cause for the life of me I cannot see a scenario where you want to know how critics feel on average more then how the general public does.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Doesnt it sort of make their job obsolete if they arent in touch with the general public?
    The purpose of media critique is to present a contextual view of the work.

    Kael, Fellini, Agee, Dargis, Siskle, and Sarris sought to provide their perspective in light of their understanding of film. Film, book, fashion, food, theater, art, and music reviews at a professional level are editorials.

    "What does Chole Zhao have to say about labor in the United States?" is what Lemire or Walsh are trying to talk to you about regarding Nomadland, for example. And so based on their personal point of view, whether they think there is a certain value in seeing the film.

    Or in other words, when I personally review films (or music, ballet, theater) professionally, I am not a recommendation engine nor a 'confirm what readers may like' synopsis writer. I am writing about my interpretation of the work and how/why I think the work is interesting (or not). Readers then may decide if that film is worthwhile based on my take.

    A bit the same with high fashion for me - like the really edgy freeky stuff. Makes no sense for the average consumer - at least they dont really try and present it as such either though.
    This is somewhat different. Designers are presenting their art in fashion with the intention to illustrate a theme, mode, or concept they want to explore in practical designs. Fashion critics are not offering commentary on the viability of wearing these fashions to pickup groceries. Though it might inspire collection designers and retailers to integrate these concepts.

    Fashion critics are offering, not to be redundant, an editorial on the concepts, themes, and so forth presented by the designers. Such that readers might be thinking after a review- "Hm, that sounds like an interesting look. Maybe I will see if they have more textured fabrics the next time I am shopping." This so happens to be a strong current fashion trend of texture on fabrics that started popping up about 2-3 years ago, by the way.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Snip.
    The problem for me is that the average film critique's view of what is good in movies is sqewed from what the average moviegoer wants.

    We can simply see this by looking at pro reviews vs user reviews of stuff like MCU.


    It would be good for consumers to have more average joe critiques on sites like rotten tomatoes. Perhaps divide critiques into categories like intertainment vs art or something like that.

    The worst part of all this is when critiques start looking down on the average movie goer like "LoL mcu is shit, its just a generic action movie with bling and terrible acting and blablabla" - when in reality thats literally the reason the media exists in the form it does today. People are simply looking for light inertainment to enjoy with friends and family. It has nothing to do with intelligence or even social status.

    This is also reflected in the Oscars which just becomes more and more irrelevant. They are literally all standing there like "WHY U DONT WANNA SEE ME ANYMORE HUH?" while giving awards to movies noone watches.

  11. #291
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    This really doesn't make sense and either is heavily biased toward amateurism or misunderstands media critique.

    Critics don't have to be "in touch with the general public". That is not even the goal.
    Critics are to provide critique and it is provided to whom? If critics are judging movies based on things that the people they are providing the critique to don't care about or critiquing when they don't understand the subject, they are failing.

    Your view of critics is basically explaining why people think critics are an unneeded profession in the world.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post

    I greatly enjoyed Rami's past films outside of the superhero genre. I did not enjoy the direction of the film or his Spider-Man films previous. I wouldn't say one enjoying one or the other is indicative of enjoyment of this film.

    One could very well enjoy a previous Marvel MCU film(s) and not enjoy another. Likewise, the creative responsible for any given work.

    Sure, I love a number of Carpenter's films. But not all of them and not among such equally either.
    I would say this movie really utilizes particular aesthetics that Raimi likes to draw on for many of his films. That may impact the viewers overall impression of the film. I'm not saying that will be the only factor. Just that it might have some impact.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    The problem for me is that the average film critique's view of what is good in movies is sqewed from what the average moviegoer wants.
    This doesn't make sense. I am not sure why you would even want that out of a professional review. I can not think of any scholarly or professional critic with such an agenda.

    We can simply see this by looking at pro reviews vs user reviews of stuff like MCU.
    I am not sure what is the intent, purpose, or value here.

    It would be good for consumers to have more average joe critiques on sites like rotten tomatoes. Perhaps divide critiques into categories like intertainment vs art or something like that.
    This doesn't make sense either. Entertainment is an art. Art is entertaining. It is why humans make and enjoy art.

    There is no difference between reviewing Citizen Kane or Fargo and Gunpowder Milkshake.

    In the year 2021, I saw 163 newly released motion pictures. 140 in 2020, 171 in 2019, 193 films in 2018. None of this inclusive of films I watched later (ex. perhaps not released in my country in that year) or watching an older film. That is strictly newly released in the US films of that respective calendar year. And that isn't even close to the number of films people I know who work in the industry see in a year.

    I greatly enjoy cinema. Critics greatly enjoy cinema.

    As I said, a professional review is essentially an editorial. Not a recommendation engine or confirmation click. What you might be looking for, wrongly as well, is a conversation in film critque. Which is not the purpose. That is what things such as this thread are for.


    The worst part of all this is when critiques start looking down on the average movie goer like "LoL mcu is shit, its just a generic action movie with bling and terrible acting and blablabla"
    I have never seen a professional reviewer do such a thing ever in their film critique. I have been an avid filmgoer and cinephile for over 35 years, went to film school, wrote reviews professionally, and follow the industry closely.

    This is also reflected in the Oscars which just becomes more and more irrelevant. They are literally all standing there like "WHY U DONT WANNA SEE ME ANYMORE HUH?" while giving awards to movies noone watches.
    The Academy Award voters nominate and vote for stuff they think are good films. Work they think is particularly remarkable. They are not there to reinforce things that are popular, per se. Only a relatively small number of box office blockbusters have ever even been nominated historically. So it's never been a thing the AA were nominating all the most popular films of the day.

    Their highest & best ratings in recent years had several fairly marginal box office performers nominated and winning.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Critics are to provide critique and it is provided to whom?
    The audience. The audience is the to listen. Literally, the Anglo-French borrowing of the Latin phrasing; 'To listen'.

    There ain't nothing else to it. An audience doesn't have to do anything but listen. In fact, that's all they ought to do.

    If critics are judging movies based on things that the people they are providing the critique to don't care about or critiquing when they don't understand the subject, they are failing.
    This sentence doesn't quite make sense.

    A critic can not offer a view or opinion other than their own. How would they anticipate what an audience may or may not care about? And what would be the purpose of their person in writing based on what an audience want- I mean, how would they exactly? This doesn't make sense because it is impossible. It doesn't exist.

    I don't understand what you are trying to say really. The value of the critic is their perspective. They are offering an editorial. If it is not in line with your own POV, that is partly the point. If you read an OP-ED, it is in opposition to the editorial board. The Washinton Times has an editorial board apart from the New Yorker, for example.

    You are meant as the reader to consider the presenter's view. That's why you read it, supposedly.

    As a reader, I know Katie Walsh has a certain POV and likes/dislikes certain things and elements of film. Her review of Hatching was quite positive and I was excepting such after I saw the film and looked up her review aftward- because Katie is a huge fan of horror films. And her review of Hatching spoke to that perspective.

    When I watched Miranda Neal's review of Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness this morning I expect her to be positive about the film. From Neal's past work and the content of reviews, she has an appreciation of Rami and tends to enjoy creative spectacle in the context of the theater-going experience.

    Though someone might be of a disposition similar to the New Yorker's Tony Lane, who dislikes the type of genre film making the MCU films typically engage in and thus gave Doc Strange 2 a poor review.

    A critic might not share your POV but you are reading, watching or listening to their perspective.

    Your view of critics is basically explaining why people think critics are an unneeded profession in the world.
    Haha, few professions are needed in the world. Many professions exist because there is a market or audience for such.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    I would say this movie really utilizes particular aesthetics that Raimi likes to draw on for many of his films. That may impact the viewers overall impression of the film. I'm not saying that will be the only factor. Just that it might have some impact.
    Ah, I see. Gotcha. I think in this context it would be fair to say if one dislikes Rami's brand, this might be off-putting to some viewers.

  14. #294
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The audience. The audience is the to listen. Literally, the Anglo-French borrowing of the Latin phrasing; 'To listen'.

    There ain't nothing else to it. An audience doesn't have to do anything but listen. In fact, that's all they ought to do.
    So, that means critics should be in touch with what the audience of the movie would want.

    This sentence doesn't quite make sense.
    Yes, it does. If the critic is critiquing the movie by measures the general audience doesn't care about, the critique is useless for the people in is providing to you. A critic who doesn't know what measures are important to the audience in question, is providing a useless tool for people to judge the movie. It is akin to asking for a hammer and you are given a screwdriver, it just doesn't work.

    A critic can not offer a view or opinion other than their own. How would they anticipate what an audience may or may not care about?
    By listening to their audience. You literally answer your own questions. The rest is literally just word salad accomplishing nothing.

    Yes, they can give their opinion, but if their view is a minority, the critic is useless. I don't have to listen to an opinion that doesn't reflect what most people are looking for, nor do I have to give value to it.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2022-05-08 at 10:40 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    So, that means critics should be in touch with what the audience of the movie would want.
    This is the exact opposite of what I explained to you. An audience doesn't dictate. They listen.

    Yes, it does. If the critic is critiquing the movie by measures the general audience doesn't care about, the critique is useless for the people in is providing to you. A critic who doesn't know what measures are important to the audience in question, is providing a useless tool for people to judge the movie. It is akin to asking for a hammer and you are given a screwdriver, it just doesn't work.
    That is not what a critique is doing. It's not a recommendation engine for you. It is the presenter's personal thoughts on the subject.

    By listening to their audience. You literally answer your own questions. The rest is literally just word salad accomplishing nothing.
    Again, the audience listens. It doesn't dictate.

    Yes, they can give their opinion, but if their view is a minority, the critic is useless.
    That historically has never been the case.

    I don't have to listen to an opinion that doesn't reflect what most people are looking for, nor do I have to give value to it.
    You don't, of course. But you are not looking for another's opinion. You are seeking confirmation of your thoughts.

  16. #296
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDL49 View Post
    The sense of what I'm getting from the critics is that that wasn't enough.
    Which should prove to you that such critics are not nearly as intelligent as they think they are. I've read plenty of critical reviews claiming confusion on subjects that were very clearly explained in a variety of movies.

    Wanda's motivations are perfectly clear. Watching Wandavision just tells such an audience member why those motivations are so very strong. The fact that such critics can't imagine that on their own...well, like I said; they aren't nearly as intelligent as they think they are...

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Critics are to provide critique and it is provided to whom? If critics are judging movies based on things that the people they are providing the critique to don't care about or critiquing when they don't understand the subject, they are failing.

    Your view of critics is basically explaining why people think critics are an unneeded profession in the world.
    Yeah there's something funny about having critical reviews from magazines no one reads talking to audiences that don't exist lol

    Meanwhile some random person on YouTube has hundreds of thousands or millions of views because they are far more in tune with what the audience actually wants.

    But actually love to see a one season reboot of the Critic from the 90s just because I think it would be really funny to have him deal with his total irrelevance. We're so far past the days of Siskel and Ebert

  18. #298
    I know the Inhumans series was a disaster, but I felt like they did Black Bolt dirty again with how easily he got destroyed.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Yes, they can give their opinion, but if their view is a minority, the critic is useless. I don't have to listen to an opinion that doesn't reflect what most people are looking for, nor do I have to give value to it.
    What a utilitarian and pedestrian way to look at art. "If their interpretation isn't useful to the vox populi, it is invalid" is literally the opposite of what art is about, and thus the review/critique of art.

  20. #300
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    What a utilitarian and pedestrian way to look at art. "If their interpretation isn't useful to the vox populi, it is invalid" is literally the opposite of what art is about, and thus the review/critique of art.
    Useless, not invalid. There is a difference between those terms.

    If you are looking to find a book or movie with certain characteristics, a critic that does not value those characteristics or does not choose to include them in what is needed, is a useless critic. It will not help the audience find what they need. If the majority of an audience is looking for specific things, a critic that does not give them is 100% useless to that person.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    This is the exact opposite of what I explained to you. An audience doesn't dictate. They listen.
    Keep in mind this statement of yours, because you are hypocritical on it later.

    And yes, the audience does dictate. They always do. If you aren't saying something people are interested in, they don't listen.

    That is not what a critique is doing. It's not a recommendation engine for you. It is the presenter's personal thoughts on the subject.
    Except that is the exact purpose for movie and book critics. Otherwise, all it is someone stating an opinion, and no one needs to listen to an opinion. The audience of the critic listens for the purpose of hearing their thoughts and for a wide group is is for recommendations. Stop pretending otherwise.

    Again, the audience listens. It doesn't dictate.
    Wrong, again. The audience chooses who to listen to. That dictates what is provided.
    If a critic isn't providing the audience something they want, they don't listen.

    That historically has never been the case.
    Quite incorrect. And you know this to be the case. I don't know why you think otherwise. Even critics in the past have admitted they were out of touch with the general audience. Or that they had misjudged a movie for various reasons that they audience saw and they didn't.

    You don't, of course. But you are not looking for another's opinion. You are seeking confirmation of your thoughts.
    This is where you are a hypocrite, because that isn't what I mean and you know that. This isn't what I explained to you.
    It isn't about confirmation of thoughts, no where is that remotely implied in what I told you.
    I can value another's opinion regardless of whether or not I agree with it, but if THEY are judging the media by different criteria than I am, I cannot use their critic to determine if I will want to see it. This isn't seeking confirmation.

    Again, it is like getting a screwdriver when you need a hammer. There are many critics I listen to because they judge a movie similarly to how I do, and I don't always agree with them, but I know we are seeing the same things and judging on the same criteria.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

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