Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness

[PhaelixWW]

All the Netflix series were produced by Disney.

...under the auspices of Marvel Television and ABC Studios, sure.

But I misspoke earlier. They weren't canceled when Disney bought Marvel (which was a long time ago, at this point), but when Disney announced Disney+. At that point, Netflix wanted to develop their own content more than continue a partnership with their soon-to-be competitor.

It's entirely possible that Disney paid Netflix to cancel the shows so that they would have less Marvel content on other streamers than Disney+. The contract meant that those characters couldn't appear anywhere else for 2 years after cancellation, but that time has passed now.

And Netflix has officially stopped streaming those canceled show as of March of this year.

But the point is that Feige was not involved with Marvel Television, except for Agent Carter, until 2019.

[PhaelixWW]

Feige was involved, he just wasn’t an EP.

Consulted, maybe, but he had no professional role in Marvel Television at all. That branch was separate from Marvel Studios. It wasn't until 2019 that he became the Chief Creative Officer of all the various Marvel branches.

[PhaelixWW]

Sure, but that wasn’t what was really being discussed. And it was ALL part of Marvel Entertainment.

Well... sorta. Marvel Television and Marvel Studios were both under Marvel Entertainment only until 2015, when Disney moved MS to Walt Disney Studios, which focuses on films. At that point, the only shows that were around were 3 seasons of AoS, 1 season of AC, and 1 season of DD. All the other shows came after the split, where MS head Feige and MT head Jeph Loeb no longer both reported to the same boss: ME head Ike Perlmutter. That's a large part of the reason the rest of the MT shows were kept pretty much separate from the MCU.

DD never concerned itself with being canon all that much. AC was Feige's, but it only lasted one more season. And AoS started drifting off-canon a few years later. The later shows didn't even bother.

It wasn't until 2019 that Disney rolled Marvel Television into Marvel Studios and put Feige in charge of it all, which coincides with the preparation for Disney+. The more recent MCU shows have all had movie-style budgets and productions.

[PhaelixWW]

Right. And I was saying the early seasons of AoS were connected to the MCU pretty heavily.

Right, and I said the same... I don't know what you're arguing about, exactly.

Review:

Agents of SHIELD didn't really go off-canon until things got all wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey. It definitely absorbed the impact of CA:TWS on SHIELD, and incorporated the Sokovian Accords from A:AoU. By the time it ignored the Snap from A:IW, the cast had already jumped around in time quite a bit, so I guess the best way to deal with it is to imagine that it became a branching timeline at that point.

The ABC shows (Agents of SHIELD, Agent Carter, Inhumans) were canon (at least AoS was until it wonked its timeline), but the Netflix shows were never canon.

My point was that when Feige and Loeb reported to the same boss, there was some communication between them and a desire to keep everything canon, despite Feige not having an official role or position in Marvel Television (aside from the EP status on Agent Carter). But when the bad blood between Feige and Perlmutter caused a rift that necessitated Disney head Bob Iger to move Marvel Studios out of Marvel Entertainment and put it into the film side (Walt Disney Studios) to keep Perlmutter from endangering the "goose that laid the golden egg", that tentative connection was lost and the subsequent shows abandoned the pretense of shared canon.

Agents of SHIELD, having already started down the path of shared canon, made a valiant effort to continue it for a while, but its time-bending antics put paid to that idea after a while.

Since then, only Charlie Cox as Daredevil in Spider-Man: No Way Home, Vincent D'Onofrio as Kingpin in Hawkeye, and Anson Mount as Black Bolt in Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness have officially jumped from off-canon to canon, though there's hope for more. I definitely wish a bunch of the AoS cast could be used in the MCU in some way.

[PhaelixWW]

I was arguing the same point you were and then you came in using their argument to try to disprove your own point.

Nope, sorry, that never happened. You're just confused yet again. Don't know why I'm surprised.

But I'm glad we can end the pointless run-around.

[Makabreska]

New portion of theories:

[PhaelixWW]

You’re right. You jumped in and made a mistake BEFORE moving the goalposts to say it wasn’t connected because Feige wasn’t credited for work on it.

Except that I never said that the early shows weren't connected. That's your confusion.

Feige wasn't involved with Marvel Television, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a decision made by his boss to start those shows off as canon, because both the movies and shows were under Perlmutter at the time.

It just wasn't Feige's decision, because he wasn't in charge of or in any official position with Marvel Television.

And when the schism happened and Marvel Studios was separated from Marvel Entertainment, that was it for the rest of the shows being canon, because Feige had no say and Perlmutter decided he wanted to ignore MCU canon.

Sorry, but if that wasn’t your point your replies to me were… pointless.

My first response to you was literally an agreement that those shows were produced by Disney. That segued into my correction about the earlier misstatement and further information about the issue.

Nothing in that post disagreed with what you said.

But then you had to argue that Feige was involved with Marvel Television, which he wasn't. So I clarified that in a short post. Then you were confused about both still being a part of Marvel Entertainment, so I clarified that for you as well.

Then your confusion came full-circle to accusing me of trying to state that early AoS wasn't canon... which I never said or implied. In fact, I specifically stated the opposite.

So, yeah, you can just let it go now, because I never said whatever it is you think I said.

[Al Gorefiend]

I liked this one a lot. Very dark themes and parallels the Captain America Civil War conflict, it was very ironic to hear Wanda use the same logic regarding Chavez Tony used when discussing her. As for the story, I get why people are disappointed in the sudden shift for Wanda but her arc may not be over, and her shift in tone is explained pretty well in both WandaVision and MoM, with Agatha warning her of the DarkHold's power and her transition into the Scarlet Witch and later by Dr. Strange in the apple orchard.

Weakest part of the movie was the alternate universe New York and those stupid memory devices that activate like a minecraft pressure plate, in the middle of a public park displayed onto a screen, with the characters non-urgently stopping to smell the flowers. Such a lame plot device for introducing Chavez' backstory, probably the lamest ever conceived in a Marvel film so far.

[Mehrunes]

Early seasons of AoS are absolutely canon; they mention events from the movies pretty consistently.

Tell that to the authors of the recent book on the creation of the MCU, because from their book and later tweets only the canon status of Agent Carter from the ABC shows has been confirmed, while the status of AoS was left ambiguous at best. Hawkeye also made Clint's wife to be the same agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. as one appearing in AoS (including its earlier seasons).

[PhaelixWW]

Tell that to the authors of the recent book on the creation of the MCU, because from their book and later tweets only the canon status of Agent Carter from the ABC shows has been confirmed, while the status of AoS was left ambiguous at best. Hawkeye also made Clint's wife to be the same agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. as one appearing in AoS (including its earlier seasons).

Laura Burton != Bobbi Morse.

Just because they both had the title of Mockingbird/Agent 19 at some point doesn't mean they can't both exist simultaneously in the MCU. The Burton kids' ages rather imply that Laura retired as Mockingbird prior to the events of AoS.

[Mehrunes]

Laura Burton != Bobbi Morse.

Just because they both had the title of Mockingbird/Agent 19 at some point doesn't mean they can't both exist simultaneously in the MCU. The Burton kids' ages rather imply that Laura retired as Mockingbird prior to the events of AoS.

If Laura Burton wasn't meant to be the Mockingbird that would mean Marvel decided to make their big Easter egg reveal at the end of the season to be watered down and lose its impact. Which is... a decision, to be sure, but a rather bizarre one. And one that still doesn't explain the MCU books' and its authors' unwillingness to comment on the canon status of AoS when they did so for Agent Carter.

[PhaelixWW]

If Laura Burton wasn't meant to be the Mockingbird that would mean Marvel decided to make their big Easter egg reveal at the end of the season to be watered down and lose its impact. Which is... a decision, to be sure, but a rather bizarre one.

Not really? It neatly sidesteps the marriage of Bobbi Morse's Mockingbird in the comics to Clint Barton by making Laura Burton an earlier Mockingbird instead. Laura Burton in the comics wasn't a SHIELD agent (and was, more importantly, dead) so it's a combination of different aspects from the comics to make a new scenario for the MCU, but with a nod to the comics.

I don't see how that means it's "watered down", and it specifically leaves room for AoS to be canon.

And one that still doesn't explain the MCU books' and its authors' unwillingness to comment on the canon status of AoS when they did so for Agent Carter.

Because Feige was the EP for Agent Carter and he can state unequivocally that it's canon. AoS started off as canon, but unlike Agent Carter, it wavered off-course years in, though that's easily explained away by the time-travel shenanigans. They just haven't made a decision one-way-or-another on whether they want to make more of a push to bring it back into the current MCU.

One would imagine that anything aside from "it's definitely not canon" is a good sign for it to perhaps be considered as such again in the future, especially in the multiversal MCU.

[MrLachyG]

If Laura Burton wasn't meant to be the Mockingbird that would mean Marvel decided to make their big Easter egg reveal at the end of the season to be watered down and lose its impact. Which is... a decision, to be sure, but a rather bizarre one. And one that still doesn't explain the MCU books' and its authors' unwillingness to comment on the canon status of AoS when they did so for Agent Carter.

the problem with AoS is that it goes from canon to non canon pretty quickly. Like you have the early scenes of Coulson's team cleaning up in London after Thor 2, then you have them smack bang in the middle of the Hydra Uprising which was kicked off by Captain America. then you have the Air Force dude (can't remember his name) who wanted to go fight Thanos before being killed by Quake. and obviously Coulson was the one resurrected after being killed by Loki. so yeah all that stuff matches up perfectly with the MCU; the reason why they didn't comment on the canon status is because they aren't sure how the final 2 seasons fit in to the MCU. so it all has to be canon or none of it is. and a lot of the final 2 seasons of AoS happens during the 5 year gap post Thanos which the MCU hasn't really touched at all, so yeah it's a bit up in the air at the moment

[Shadowferal]

Later seasons, sure. But that’s AFTER the rift between Feige and the TV division developed. The early seasons were 100% canon.

If I recall they at first boasted that the continuity would cross over into the three mediums; comicbook, television, and movies. A pity the "Dethlok Initiative" kinda dribbled off.

[PhaelixWW]

Yeah, that’s what they wanted to do but Feige and the others didn’t play well together. So now it’s just Feige and they’re pushing for the same kinda shit but with one ego in charge instead of multiple.

Feige is a massively better choice for the role than cheapskate, misogynist Perlmutter, that's for sure

[Svifnymr]

the problem with AoS is that it goes from canon to non canon pretty quickly. Like you have the early scenes of Coulson's team cleaning up in London after Thor 2, then you have them smack bang in the middle of the Hydra Uprising which was kicked off by Captain America. then you have the Air Force dude (can't remember his name) who wanted to go fight Thanos before being killed by Quake. and obviously Coulson was the one resurrected after being killed by Loki. so yeah all that stuff matches up perfectly with the MCU; the reason why they didn't comment on the canon status is because they aren't sure how the final 2 seasons fit in to the MCU. so it all has to be canon or none of it is. and a lot of the final 2 seasons of AoS happens during the 5 year gap post Thanos which the MCU hasn't really touched at all, so yeah it's a bit up in the air at the moment

The thing to keep in mind is that canon or non-canon doesn't really mean much here. It was only ever one way with the series (netflix or AoS or any of them). They would reflect events that occured in the movies, but the movies would never reference them. They would base an entire season building up to a movie plot point, but that movie would come out when it wanted and the pacing of the show would have to work around it. At some point I think they just stopped dripping plot elements to the tv writers and so the tv guys just took their own path. Netflix never seemed to have that inside track at all, so just referenced stuff that had already happened (and even then vaguely).
So, now at least, it's become clear that Marvel will use whatever they feel like using from any of the series, ignore other stuff, reference some as alternate universe maybe, but for the most part you'll probably never hear about Coulson again. (Well, in the present at least.)

[PhaelixWW]

Definitely. He’s done a pretty good job giving us a whole new Marvel universe that people seem to enjoy. You got the counterpart wrong though. That was Jeph Loeb over at Marvel TV doing the Feige thing.

No, I didn't. Feige didn't really have much to do with his Marvel Television counterpart, Loeb. Perlmutter was the one calling the shots as the boss of both of them. Notably, the people who "didn't play well together" were Feige and Perlmutter, not Feige and Loeb.

Feige reportedly threatened to quit due to Perlmutter's resistance to his creative vision. Iger wasn't about to lose his meal ticket, so he moved Marvel Studios out of Marvel Entertainment and into Walt Disney Studios under Alan Horn, taking Perlmutter out of the equation, at least for the film side of the MCU.

[PhaelixWW]

What? Loeb and Feige were the two who they could have chosen between to be the new head. Perlmutter was never in the equation. And Loeb and Feige did collaborate in the early days, but a rift developed. Loeb actually chose to leave the company when Feige was put in charge.

That's because there is no Marvel Television division anymore. Marvel Television is now just a label under Marvel Studios.

Loeb was never going to be the head of the new MCU shows for Disney+. There was no "choice" to be made there.

Again, the bad blood was always between Feige and Perlmutter. In 2015, Marvel Studios was taken out of Perlmutter's control. In 2019, Marvel Television was folded into Marvel Studios in anticipation of Disney+, taking it out of Perlmutter's control, as well. This was always a battle between the egos of Perlmutter and Feige.

I've never really seen any report that Loeb had much of an ego to speak of. I liked the bulk of his work with MT, so I'm kinda sad to see him go, though the new MCU shows are amazing, as well. In a perfect world, we might have been able to keep both, though there's already an awful lot of Marvel content out there, so...

But this was always Feige vs. Perlmutter, and there really wasn't much of a "rift" between Feige and Loeb, except perhaps as an extension of the actual rift between Feige and Perlmutter.

This is all pretty well-documented.

[JDL49]

That's because there is no Marvel Television division anymore. Marvel Television is now just a label under Marvel Studios.

Loeb was never going to be the head of the new MCU shows for Disney+. There was no "choice" to be made there.

Again, the bad blood was always between Feige and Perlmutter. In 2015, Marvel Studios was taken out of Perlmutter's control. In 2019, Marvel Television was folded into Marvel Studios in anticipation of Disney+, taking it out of Perlmutter's control, as well. This was always a battle between the egos of Perlmutter and Feige.

I've never really seen any report that Loeb had much of an ego to speak of. I liked the bulk of his work with MT, so I'm kinda sad to see him go, though the new MCU shows are amazing, as well. In a perfect world, we might have been able to keep both, though there's already an awful lot of Marvel content out there, so...

But this was always Feige vs. Perlmutter, and there really wasn't much of a "rift" between Feige and Loeb, except perhaps as an extension of the actual rift between Feige and Perlmutter.

This is all pretty well-documented.

IIRC the beef Feige had was with the so-called Marvel Creative Committee. "The committee supposedly consisted of Marvel Comics writer Brian Michael Bendis, former Marvel Comics editor-in-chief Joe Quesada, Marvel Comics publisher Dan Buckley, and president of Marvel Entertainment Alan Fine." ScreenRant article 10/26/21. This was the content problem. In addition Feige had serious problems with Ike being cheap. That was the final straw.

As far as AoS being "canon" they had to ask the movie side for anything in the Marvel database not given to them at the start. That never stopped. Anyway they bent over backwards to be in sync with the movies until the end of S5 which they thought was going to be the end. Seasons 6 & 7 were a surprise and were not made with the assumption of being capable of being canonical and imo aren't. YMMV.

[Ihavewaffles]

This was cut from the movie...

https://www.instagram.com/p/CfmPqfClPFR/