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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Torghast could have been great if they didn't neuter it so much and make it mandatory.
    I wonder if it honestly could of... it was a neat novelty on beta but it was just that a novelty. I don't think it ever had the depth or systems to be more then that. I could see it working as an alternative to leveling if the xp gains were better but that isnt exactly high praise.

    It feels like a concept design for a different game then warcraft. One with classes built around it.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Candlewick View Post
    I wonder if it honestly could of... it was a neat novelty on beta but it was just that a novelty. I don't think it ever had the depth or systems to be more then that. I could see it working as an alternative to leveling if the xp gains were better but that isnt exactly high praise.

    It feels like a concept design for a different game then warcraft. One with classes built around it.
    Torghast and the FF14 Deep Dungeons are the same idea. They are fun in FF14 but bad in WoW, despite Torghast being far bigger and more developed. As always, the problem here is the systems around it, not the content.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Torghast and the FF14 Deep Dungeons are the same idea. They are fun in FF14 but bad in WoW, despite Torghast being far bigger and more developed. As always, the problem here is the systems around it, not the content.
    I would disagree. I had to think a lot more in the palace of the dead and judge risk rewards then I did in torghast. While landmines are moronic everything else made you plan out encounters.

    Torghast never really had that element at best it had tedious traps. The content was part of the issue here as well. They relied on mobs being tanky more then they relied on them having interesting and dangerous mechanics.

  4. #344
    Warchief roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chadow View Post
    -online communication is no longer a novelty
    -you only see another player as a mean to your ends
    -communication with another player is considered meaningless if not rewarded

    We live in the age of "profit" where everything is meaningless unless you can profit from it. Even people.

    Edit: Just to clarify

    Conquering and winning is always fun.
    We earn the girlfriend, we win at our job, we conquer arena rating, we win gear etc

    But what i mean is that nowadays we may have lost touch with other players and the simple joy of communicating with them and just having "stupid fun".
    The real problem is that modern MMO's rarely allow for "stupid fun." You need to level up to get to endgame. You need to follow a massive questline to know what's going on. You need to do your dailies to stay competitive. You need to do boring content in small doses every week because the content is timegated. The company must extend their retention numbers, after all.

    Long grinds are fine IMO, as long as the player can set the pace. My favorite recent grind was boosting people through Stratholme on my paladin to pay for some expensive BiS professions. It took a long time, but I was able to set my own pace and provide a service to the economy. This is way more fun than doing retail's on-the-rails content.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Candlewick View Post
    I would disagree. I had to think a lot more in the palace of the dead and judge risk rewards then I did in torghast. While landmines are moronic everything else made you plan out encounters.

    Torghast never really had that element at best it had tedious traps. The content was part of the issue here as well. They relied on mobs being tanky more then they relied on them having interesting and dangerous mechanics.
    That's a tuning issue.
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  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That's a tuning issue.
    It's it though? I am thinking over the mechanics of torghast mobs and am struggling to think of anything that is a tuning issue compared to dull and repetitive design... would a mobs single cast fear and auto attacks really be more engaging if they did more dmg? Would the flame traps suddenly be fun rather then tedious if they went off faster?

    I would argue its just far,far to under designed and oddly over designed at the same time. The bosses are almost all to simplistic to be more then gear or if you got the right power checks. The mobs are only threatening when they simply have to much hp to die and enrage.

    If torghast had another year of work invested into maybe but it just seemed hack kneed and to incomplete to of held peoples interest for more then a week or two without outrageous rewards.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Candlewick View Post
    It's it though? I am thinking over the mechanics of torghast mobs and am struggling to think of anything that is a tuning issue compared to dull and repetitive design... would a mobs single cast fear and auto attacks really be more engaging if they did more dmg? Would the flame traps suddenly be fun rather then tedious if they went off faster?

    I would argue its just far,far to under designed and oddly over designed at the same time. The bosses are almost all to simplistic to be more then gear or if you got the right power checks. The mobs are only threatening when they simply have to much hp to die and enrage.

    If torghast had another year of work invested into maybe but it just seemed hack kneed and to incomplete to of held peoples interest for more then a week or two without outrageous rewards.
    I don't think the mechanics in deep dungeons are much different, at least from my experience.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  8. #348
    The big question for WoW, what's next? I don't mean the crappy patch 9.2 which is just doubling down on Shittylands systems and time gating BS.

    But what's next ? 10.0, the ninth expansion? There's no Blizzcon in 2022. If they stay on track the next expansion should be out late Fall 2022, like Nov / Dec 22', is that still happening? In WoW expansion history, they've always been released pretty much 2 years apart like clockwork, maybe a little less than 24 months, sometimes 22 months, but never over 2 years.

    Will the game see a major revamp, and new game director with a new way of doing things and big time redo of WoW?

  9. #349
    Stood in the Fire Krimzin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chadow View Post
    -online communication is no longer a novelty
    -you only see another player as a mean to your ends
    -communication with another player is considered meaningless if not rewarded

    We live in the age of "profit" where everything is meaningless unless you can profit from it. Even people.

    Edit: Just to clarify

    Conquering and winning is always fun.
    We earn the girlfriend, we win at our job, we conquer arena rating, we win gear etc

    But what i mean is that nowadays we may have lost touch with other players and the simple joy of communicating with them and just having "stupid fun".
    I think you are trying to impose your personal beliefs as a way to explain your point.
    MMOs in general are on the downslide because of one thing.. Time Commitment.
    FPS/RTS and other genres let you play for short time and leave with no real issues.
    They are meant to be short quick and fun.
    MMOs on the other hand take a time commitment. Time to gear and time to Raid.
    The only facet of MMOs that dont take the same time commitment is PvP/Arena play.

    Todays player is typically has a very short attention span and wants instant gratification.

    That last sentence is why MMOs aren't as popular as they used to be in a nutshell.

    MMOs will never die. There are to many people who enjoy building up characters long term.
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  10. #350
    If anything, MMO's are seeing a BIT of a resurgence. WoW is struggling because... well, a LOT of reasons. And to be fair, not all of them are within Blizzard's control.

    Something I DO think a lot of MMO's seem to be missing as of late, though, is that very few are truly "Multiplayer-centric, start-to-finish". Instead, most MMO's are "mostly single-player, occasionally multiplayer".

    Now in FFXIV's case, I think it kind of works. As in, the story is expressly written in that way, the experience in presented that way. Even "other players" are canon in your adventure. I don't necessarily think other MMO's need to emulate that, but it's certainly one way to approach things.

    I think one issue is that Blizzard seems hesitant to really commit to any one approach; sometimes they want to act like "YOU'RE the hero, the Champion of Azeroth!", but then never give you even the ILLUSION of agency, literally ignoring the fact that "players" exist in the world whatsoever.

    I've been saying for a long time now, players should just be "Adventurers", not committed to any faction. And in doing so, allow us to play cross-faction, even if you aren't necessarily WELCOME everywhere.

    But in terms of GAMEPLAY, I honestly think they need to prioritize playing WITH other players. Additionally, pay to have REAL moderation for the game, ban players for harassment or cussing people out, actually MANAGE players' behavior more. FFXIV has a great community, in part because they allow their GM's to AGGRESSIVELY police player-behavior. Sometimes it can feel a little overkill, but that's how it NEEDS to be. I'd probably remove matchmaking tools entirely, and in doing so, maybe have Dungeons a little more rewarding. LFR just allows players to "beat the story" without actually investing any real effort; so it's really no surprise that so many people got bored and quit.

    I'd also try to make crafting feel more organic and part of the gameplay experience, and bring back "Specializations" (ie. "Weaponsmithing" vs. "Armorsmithing"). Maybe crafted gear starts out worse, but can be upgraded, whilst regular drops are just "what they are", cannot be improved, gemmed, or enchanted, but are good enough to get you through the game. Maybe crafting stuff "for yourself" (BoP) is dramatically cheaper, whereas BoE versions requires more investment? Just off the top of my head; my thinking is that it lets casual players get their OWN stuff without huge investment, but for those looking to make gold, it requires more investment or raid-progress.

    Either way, I do think it's an interesting conversation to have.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    Yes, Blizzard always gives everyone what they want even when they said it’s a bad idea after the first content patch of an expansion.
    IT's been over a year and it will be a 2 patch expansion. They are right on schedule. The facts speak for themselves and spinning them to fit a narrative doesn't make you correct.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Krimzin View Post
    I think you are trying to impose your personal beliefs as a way to explain your point.
    MMOs in general are on the downslide because of one thing.. Time Commitment.
    FPS/RTS and other genres let you play for short time and leave with no real issues.
    They are meant to be short quick and fun.
    MMOs on the other hand take a time commitment. Time to gear and time to Raid.
    The only facet of MMOs that dont take the same time commitment is PvP/Arena play.

    Todays player is typically has a very short attention span and wants instant gratification.

    That last sentence is why MMOs aren't as popular as they used to be in a nutshell.

    MMOs will never die. There are to many people who enjoy building up characters long term.
    This is so ridiculous. The biggest games most of the time are games that have its players completely invested, like Fortnite and LoL
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  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    The big question for WoW, what's next? I don't mean the crappy patch 9.2 which is just doubling down on Shittylands systems and time gating BS.

    But what's next ? 10.0, the ninth expansion? There's no Blizzcon in 2022. If they stay on track the next expansion should be out late Fall 2022, like Nov / Dec 22', is that still happening? In WoW expansion history, they've always been released pretty much 2 years apart like clockwork, maybe a little less than 24 months, sometimes 22 months, but never over 2 years.

    Will the game see a major revamp, and new game director with a new way of doing things and big time redo of WoW?
    What does Blizzcon have to do with anything? Expansions have been announced at events that are not Blizzcon before.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I don't think the mechanics in deep dungeons are much different, at least from my experience.
    It's a combination of how enemies spawn in,upgrades, and treasures that make palace different. In wow there isnt really the same level of nuance.. I can't recall a version of torghast where you would want to skip mobs for any reasons. A lot of the powers felt hit and miss for me as well with far to many useless ones mixed in.

    I felt like I constantly had more to weigh playing final fantasy then wow version of it. That said barring the bullshit time gating I felt visions came a lot closer to single progression in wow.

  15. #355
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candlewick View Post
    I don't really see any new players in wow. I don't think blizzard can compete with the likes of facebook when it comes to mindless games.
    Well, one idea would be to open up the trial to most of the game and drop the subscription for everything except the current expansion. That seems to work pretty well. Popular too. People think it's great. I think it really is time for Blizzard to wonder whether or not a subscription model is still viable. It might be. Other F2P games or mostly F2P with large stores may look enormously popular but it's an open question if their revenues have increased with a more open model.

    I don't know if the game is really so bad but I can well believe that other games have moved on leaving Blizzard as something of a T-Rex wandering around the savanna. That can make any older game appear to be something of a dinosaur in terms of both design and acceptance. WoW is an old game and has maintained a consistent look and approach to MMORPG design for all of those years. It might be too long.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2021-12-28 at 10:41 PM.
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  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Well, one idea would be to open up the trial to most of the game and drop the subscription for everything except the current expansion. That seems to work pretty well. Popular too. People think it's great. I think it really is time for Blizzard to wonder whether or not a subscription model is still viable. It might be. Other F2P games or mostly F2P with large stores may look enormously popular but it's an open question if their revenues have increased with a more open model.

    I don't know if the game is really so bad but I can well believe that other games have moved on leaving Blizzard as something of a T-Rex wandering around the savanna. That can make any older game appear to be something of a dinosaur in terms of both design and acceptance. WoW is an old game and has maintained a consistent look and approach to MMORPG design for all of those years. It might be too long.
    I think opening up the game is via free trial would go very badly for blizzard. They have to lazy of an enforcement policy when it comes to botters and spammers. Combine that with them selling codes to games and you have a way to directly cash the bots out on key reseller sites. While it would be insanely popular opening wow up for free with its current standards of quality control and customer service woukd be a nightmare I would think.

    As for design WoW needs to stop treating players like it is the first time they powered on a computer,. I don't believe people new to gaming start in mmos but the leveling experience reflects that kind of frame work. Worse if you take the new starting zone they made they actively teach players the incorrect way to use spells right off the bat..

    It feels like to me wow has to finally come to terms with the fact its a very niche product and stop trying to drone out player feedback because it doesn't align with whatever pet project the devs have. I didn't have a lot of faith in the community council program but they really need something like that but where they don't actively ban players from it being frank with them.

    Everytime wow tries to announce something of late it comes off as the devs trying to tell the players what they like rather then making something the players do like.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Keten View Post
    You are absolutely right, NineSpine. But that other person has a shred of an idea that has merit, as well. The best games do give you fun, immediately. This is important because if a game is boring out of the gate, who will stick with it? That's why, even according to Blizzard, most WoW players never even made it past level 10. Because the early WoW game is just not fun, they've made everything about "endgame". But in games like Fortnite, LoL, Apex, whatever ... endgame is the entire game. There's no boring parts to get through to get to the fun parts.

    As for "instant gratification"? Well, people want to be rewarded in some way for what they do. And so, all the good games that people love find ways to keep the player well-rewarded for playing the game rather than being miserly and demanding the proper amount of "effort" and "work" to be considered worthy of anything rewarding.

    What the person you quoted is attempting to describe is not "Today's player", but rather "human behavior". And they even get that absolutely wrong by trying to describe it with terms loaded with derision solely to make it seem like people today are somehow lesser than people ten years ago. It's ridiculous, on the face of it.
    I get your logic, but why is FF14, a game with a much slower leveling process that is mostly just story, surging? New World seems to have flopped pretty hard and that’s a game that starts out as endgame. I think these narratives about what players want is overly simplistic. There are a lot of gamers and their tastes range quite a bit. No game needs 51% of gamers to be into it.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I get your logic, but why is FF14, a game with a much slower leveling process that is mostly just story, surging? New World seems to have flopped pretty hard and that’s a game that starts out as endgame. I think these narratives about what players want is overly simplistic. There are a lot of gamers and their tastes range quite a bit. No game needs 51% of gamers to be into it.
    I mean it's free and they offer scaling difficulties to questing and offer content like deeper dungeons for players looking for harder fights.

    Know im rehashing but just pointing it out again.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    They removed the game a lot of us used to play and would like to still play.
    Really which part did they remove. Super easy as fuck leveling that you have to try to die on? Still there, dungeons? Still there. BGs? Still there. Arena? Still there. Raids? Still there.

    The core of the game that's been around since Vanilla is still there and no you don't have to do anything else no matter what you're pos raid leader screams at you for.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Really which part did they remove. Super easy as fuck leveling that you have to try to die on? Still there, dungeons? Still there. BGs? Still there. Arena? Still there. Raids? Still there.

    The core of the game that's been around since Vanilla is still there and no you don't have to do anything else no matter what you're pos raid leader screams at you for.
    You can't gear up via non-rated pvp.
    You can't gear up via non-M+ dungeons.

    Endgame power progression is over in about 2 days after you hit 60 if you don't do rated pvp, M+, or heroic-mythic raiding. That is not how the game used to be. The game also did not used to deprecate everything every patch so content stayed at least somewhat relevant during the expansion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Keten View Post
    Keep in mind, the near-universal complaint on FFXIV is that it starts out so incredibly slowly. Even people who love FFXIV decry the slow, boring state of the initial experience. It's picked up so many players lately because of word-of-mouth and the promise of the endgame, but even then I guarantee there are a great number of people who bounce off that initial experience. People play FFXIV (and WoW) despite the early game, not because of it. That's not saying that early storytelling doesn't pay off, it certainly does. But for a fresh player, it can be severely underwhelming.

    As for New World ... it's problems are hardly anything to do with pace, or even fun. Again, the most ardent defenders of New World, and even many who've quit it, will laud the gameplay itself and how fun it is to play. What they deride is the extreme bugginess and lack of QA evidenced by Amazon during its launch/honeymoon period. People quit New World because the economy is borked due to bugs, or because design choices led to faction-dominated servers or guildmasters stealing the guild kitty.
    It doesn't make sense for WoW to be failing because of barriers to entry and FF14 to be surging despite barriers to entry.

    I think the more realistic answer is: There are a lot of gamers and they like different things. Broad statements about what gamers want are misguided and reductive.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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