Remarks from former WoW designer gives insight on WoW's classes

[cocomen2]

i know the jailers defeat was datamined but do we know anything about sylvanas state after?

My headcannon, that Anduin gathers all light force in his body and gives her a kiss, which transforms her to lightforged state just like with Calia.

[Ielenia]

The difference is that an ability given by a quest is over when you complete the quest. Whereas you can keep and use Wailing Arrow indefinitely as long as you have the weapon equipped.

And, just like the ability is removed when the world quest is over, the ability from the Sylvanas gear is also removed when the items are removed.

Just like the Heart of Azeroth and artifact weapons. But I don't see you advocating that warriors are now shamans for being able to summon elementals.

Yeah, but every class got Azeroth and Artifact weapons and abilities. Only the Hunter class got a Dark Ranger ability from Sylvanas.

Which, just like artifact weapons and THE HEART OF AZEROTH (I'll keep mentioning this since you keep ignoring it), it'll be removed when the expansion is over.

Hell, it's likely to be removed even before the expansion is over, as the bow from 9.2 might even end up being an upgrade over Sylvanas' bow.

It's another in a long line of Dark Ranger items and abilities going to the Hunter class.

And, just like this so-called "long line of dark ranger items and abilities going to the hunter class", it's highly likely it will be removed and forgotten after the expansion is over.

Y'know, just like it happened to all the dark ranger stuff the Hunter class got.

[Teriz]

And, just like the ability is removed when the world quest is over, the ability from the Sylvanas gear is also removed when the items are removed.

Just like the Heart of Azeroth and artifact weapons. But I don't see you advocating that warriors are now shamans for being able to summon elementals.

There has been multiple examples of classes retaining abilities they received from the artifact weapons in Legion. I’m not aware of any case of classes retaining an ability from a world quest.

That would be another difference.

Which, just like artifact weapons and THE HEART OF AZEROTH (I'll keep mentioning this since you keep ignoring it), it'll be removed when the expansion is over.

There is a big difference between an ability being removed at the end of an expansion, and you losing an ability when you complete a quest. Expansions last for years, but you complete a quest in a matter of minutes or hours. And once again, we have multiple examples of classes keeping the abilities they got from artifact weapons in Legion.

Y'know, just like it happened to all the dark ranger stuff the Hunter class got.

They still have the Dark Ranger hood, and they will always have Sylvanas’ bow and quiver. Additionally, there is a high chance they will be getting Wailing Arrow and/or Withering Fire in future expansions.

[Trumpcat]

Making Horde-style Shamans available to the Alliance, and Paladins with Light aesthetics available to the Horde, was a mistake. Factions SHOULD have exclusive classes. So long as every faction is able to beat the content, that's fine. The obsessions of a minority of hardcore raiders should not dictate game design that affects the core feel of the game.

Yeah, I always thought Paladin is a lot more fitting for Heroism, considering the name, look and sound of the ability than Shaman. So keep Bloodlust and Heroism separate on the faction specific classes and then leave it shared shared on other classes like Time Warp on Mages.

[Triceron]

Now that is bullshit.

The demon hunter concept, and the demon hunter class, is unique in comparison to the other classes in the game in that it takes from a single concept and does not incorporate anything else into it.

Havoc and Vengeance are TWO concepts, not one.

[Teriz]

My headcannon, that Anduin gathers all light force in his body and gives her a kiss, which transforms her to lightforged state just like with Calia.

Why in the world would anyone want a continuation of Sylvanas' storyline in the following expansion? We've just had 2.5 expansions about her. The last 4 years have been pretty much World of Sylvanas.

[Candlewick]

The issue with Wardens is that they're too race specific, melee/agility-based, and their general concept revolves around poison blades and shadow abilities. Their ability concepts make them VERY similar to Rogues.

That's fair was simply spitballing. Like I said figuring our how to wedge more specs into wow isn't easy.

[Teriz]

That's fair was simply spitballing. Like I said figuring our how to wedge more specs into wow isn't easy.

If we're being fair here, there are only 2 remaining WC3 heroes that have abilities that have never shown up in the class lineup;

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...intinker.shtml
http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...lchemist.shtml

Now while too many people focus on the first hero, they tend to ignore the second here there. In addition, there are other units in WC3 that back up those two heroes;

http://classic.battle.net/war3/human...gmachine.shtml
http://classic.battle.net/war3/human...rtarteam.shtml
http://classic.battle.net/war3/human...geengine.shtml
http://classic.battle.net/war3/orc/u...batrider.shtml
http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutral/goblins.shtml

We have precedent for this with the Death Knight hero, which took abilities from multiple similarly themed heroes and units, which in turn allowed the class to have a Frost spec which is clearly based on the Lich hero, a ghoul summon which was a unit in WC3, Necromancer abilities, Banshee abilities, etc. In addition, Shaman, Druids, Mages, Rogues, and Hunters took from multiple heroes and units. So again, the precedent is there.

If you take all of those unused themes together, I can definitely see them create a much more holistic class concept that goes beyond Goblins and in fact incorporates pretty much every race in the game. Maybe you get an Ogre or Hobgoblin you can do "experiments" on that gives it crazy buffs? Maybe you have a spray gun that sprays various toxins on enemies, or healing agents on allies? Maybe you have a variety of chemical bombs that do all sorts of wild effects? Maybe we swing harder into the magi-tech found among Draenei and Elven artificers? Maybe you get a more Batman-style class that incorporates more shadowy skills and combine them with some tech gadgets (something along the lines of the Diablo Demon Hunter)? Maybe you actually get a Dark Ranger, but it's using a slew of chemical weapons from its forsaken roots instead of banshee abilities?

Again, too many people focus on the first hero, but seemingly ignore the rather broad amount of classes possible from the open abilities present. In short, I don't know what you would call such a class, but it would open it up to be physical ranged and any spec, which is quite desirable to the user base.

Hearthstone (Again) shows us some interesting possibilities;



Magitech;




Ranged weapons attached to the character, or maybe a mutated minion that you control;



Examples of possible buffs via the Transmute ability from the Alchemist hero;

[username993720]

These same arguments can be made for DKs, Brewmasters, and DHs before they appeared as classes, and are rather irrelelvant.

You just said it yourself. You cannot use existing content to dismiss a class that hasn't been implemented yet.

What you have to look for is if the concept in question can be placed in existing classes. If the answer is no, then you have an opening for class inclusion.

Wrong.
As we've seen before, the Demon Hunter was able to be placed in the Warlock and was dedicated an entire spec for it. Yet, it was pulled out if it to create a new one.

For example, while Warlocks could have metamorphosis, they couldn't imitate the melee qualities of the Demon Hunter. So while the pivotal DH ability is metamorphosis, the Demon Hunter's demonic melee attributes were equally iconic to the concept and could not be imitated by any existing classes.

The Demon Hunter's melee attacks in WC3 were auto attacks only. His actual abilities were all spellcasting. So no, it didn't justify an entire class, as they could have simply given the Meta form a melee attack (with glaives as cosmetics).

In addition, Demon Hunters had various lore benefits that other concepts did not have, like Blood Elf DHs that allowed Horde and Alliance DHs, and Illidan being able to replicate Demon Hunter abilities, which gives a basis for multiple DHs to exist and in turn facilitates justification for a class.

You try to use the most race-specific class as a point in favor?
There are Night elven Dark Rangers, Venthyr Night Warrior, Lightforged Draenei Blademasters, Dark Wardens in the Horde, and Human Shadow Hunters.

Replicate Demon Hunter abilities? They took the Metamorphosis ability from WC3 just like Black Arrow was given to several characters.
You use the wrong example. Demon Hunters are taught. Dark Rangers are raised. The comparison should be made with Death Knights. And, just like Dark Rangers, the Lich King didn't bestow them with his own unique Lich King powers until they were made playable in WotlK.

Now you may be asking why this applies to DHs and not Dark Rangers. Well consider that in terms of general playstyle the Dark Ranger has never played much different from the general Hunter class.

So did a Warlock with Metamorphosis. We've already gone through this. A class isn't really playable until it is added. What you see, currently, are only fragments of an actual class.

Black Arrow for example never significantly altered Hunter gameplay in any of its iterations, thus unlike demonic melee with Demon Hunters, it stands to reason that a Dark Ranger class wouldn't offer much different gameplay wise from the Hunter class.

Black Arrow? How about Charm? Yea, the ability to take over your opponent. Would change it quite a bit. What you're describing is like Mana Burn being added to Warlocks. It wouldn't change much, would it?

In addition, "Banshee abilities" were never as strongly defined as the Metamorphosis ability was.

Yea, that's called originality. If we don't want it to overlap with the Death Knight so much, there needs to be a direction change.

Finally, the lore never supported the concept of multiple Sylvanas' running around. WoW lore especially made it a point to show that the DRs that Sylvanas raised were not Banshee empowered.

Define Banshee empowered. Multiple Dark Rangers have a Banshee wail shot. Why would they have that? Besides, that's the point of a famous character like Sylvanas. No one can be like her. Much like how you can't stay in permanent metamorphosis like Illidan or wear the Helm of Domination like Arthas.

I mean it really, truly isn't remotely the same. But considering you're banned, I won't waste more electrons printing a detailed response.

You wanted a Headhunter. Survival should be it.

Given that Sylvanas is more than likely gone after this expansion,

Yeah... i don't know. Given how she just opened her eyes in the latest cinematic and how she is given a book, it's not that likely.
Not that i want to see her for yet another expansion. 3 was enough.

and Hunters have continued to be the class that gets Dark Ranger abilities and items, I think it's fair to say that the future of the concept entirely revolves around the Hunter class.

Funny how you fail to mention the Rogue.

Edge of Night
Item Level 233
Binds when picked up
Dagger
One-Hand
Speed 1.80
66 – 111 Damage
(49.2 damage per second)
+43 Agility
+65 Stamina
Equip: Your attacks apply Banshee's Blight, giving your finishing moves a 3% chance per combo point spent to deal 1391 Shadow damage. Banshee's Blight stacks up to 4 times as the target becomes more injured. (500ms cooldown).

So, are Dark Rangers Rogues now? Weird, because they get a Banshee-based ability even though you said no one gets anything Banshee related other than Sylvanas.
Or, are they both Rogues and Hunters? Seems like even Blizzard can't decide

The only logical hurdle devs have to leap over anymore is if it can fit within both the Horde and Alliance, so classes like Shadow Hunter wouldn't work because no Alliance race can accurately embody a Voodoo using troll.

How do you have a Vol'jin profile pic, i still don't get it.
Have you heard about Witchcraft? Drustvar depicts it the best.


This will be the Alliance version of Shadow Hunter/Witch Doctor.
I can see Kul Tirans, Worgen and if we get to play as - Drust, as well - being able to be this class.

I believe Blizzard won’t be done with classes until they’ve exhausted the WC3 RTS hero roster.

Which is one class according to you?

I could honestly see one more class implemented to bring in the remaining RTS heroes (a stated goal by Jordan), and to fill in a 3rd mail armor slot. Anything beyond that point will be delivered via spec overhauls in the existing classes.

We got 2 new leather-based classes. What makes you think they would stop at mail?

I'm very curious what fantasies you feel are not covered. Could you name them? I can only think of one fantasy that is really not covered by the existing classes. Additionally, there's only like 2 heroes whose abilities have never appeared in the class lineup. Every other RTS hero has had their abilities brought into the class lineup in one form or another.

That's because they probably turned into professions.

Warden abilities show up mainly in the Rogue class, and the Warden class was originally the NE assassin.

*ability. As in singular. Fan of Knives. The poison theme was dropped with HotS.

Blademasters were clearly melded into the Warrior class

Because of one ability? Where's the mystical aspects? Where's the samurai feel? Are any other Samuro abilities and talents appear in the Warrior class?

Well I think it's rather easy to when you recognize what these class concepts would bring to the table. The core of a Warden for example is an agile assassin that uses shadow abilities and envenomed daggers. How is that any different than your typical (Subtlety) Rogue?

Agile assassin?
It wears plate. Can't really be agile. Assassin? They capture criminals and jail them. Hence, their description - jailers.
The poison theme was dropped with HotS.

and they gave Hunters some Dark Ranger concepts.

*and Rogues. You seem to drop that every time.

I believe the issue with Survival was that the original concept was the dual axe-wielding Rexxar from WC3. In earlier iterations of WoW, Hunters could dual wield, harking back to that character. With the glut of DW classes in Legion, including the new Demon Hunter class, I can see why Blizzard decided to go with the polearm/spear route instead. I think their main problem is that they never went all the way with the concept, and tried to do too much when they should triple down on the spear/polearm aspect of the spec.

Terms of Engagement for example should be baseline, and the class should be full of spear/polearm based abilities.

Beastmaster is based on Rexxar. Survival was supposed to be based on the Headhunter:

"A rugged tracker who uses traps, explosives and animal venom as deadly weapons"

"These cunning warriors would learn from birth how to hunt, track and trap the most dangerous beasts in the wild"

The only thing that is off is the explosives, which should have been given to Marksmanship.

What would a dark ranger honestly do though to be frank? Would it just be a MM hunter with renamed spells? What is left for range dps to do that would fit into the game?

When all is said and done what is left for a dark ranger to do?

Think of it as a Subtlety/Marksmanship mix.

I largely agree. The only thing that really separated Dark Rangers from Hunters was Sylvanas’ Banshee abilities. However, only Sylvanas could perform those abilities, and every other Dark Ranger was a DR without Banshee abilities.

As all special characters are. Expect Dark Rangers to be Banshee-based.

Hunters on the hand have easily housed Dark Ranger abilities for multiple expansions. As I said earlier, Hunters has multiple versions of Black Arrow, the signature ability of Dark Rangers, and it didn’t alter its playstyle. Compare that to metamorphosis, an ability that was so definitive that a spec was built around it.

We no longer have Black Arrow.
Demonology was not based around Metamorphosis alone, as you could still summon demons outside it. It was more of a burst cooldown.

They currently have access to Wailing Arrow and Withering Fire. Both Dark Ranger abilities. Wailing Arrow is already assigned as a Hunter ability;

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=354831/wailing-arrow

Black Arrow will return to the Hunter class when it offers something to the class beyond being a DoT.

Both are related to a temporary bow. Discarded the moment you get a better item. And, you fail to mention how Rogues also get a Dark Ranger-based ability, as well.

That makes no sense,also it seems very likely sylvanas wont survive shadowlands,would be ironic how as a banshee she tried to avoid death by all means but once she is made whole again she wilingly gives her life up to defeat the jailer

i know the jailers defeat was datamined but do we know anything about sylvanas state after?

She survives.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay0kAVRyyok

You keep acting like this is some sort of coincidence when in reality it is purposeful design.

Of course it is. You fight Sylvanas. They wanted you to get her equipment. Not only Hunters, though, but Rogues too.

The difference is that an ability given by a quest is over when you complete the quest. Whereas you can keep and use Wailing Arrow indefinitely as long as you have the weapon equipped.

Why would you keep it beyond the expansion, or even the patch?

Yeah, but every class got Azeroth and Artifact weapons and abilities. Only the Hunter class got a Dark Ranger ability from Sylvanas.

It's another in a long line of Dark Ranger items and abilities going to the Hunter class.

And so did Rogues.

The issue with Wardens is that they're too race specific

For the moment. If you can't see them being expanded, like Death Knights and Monks got, then you're shortsighted.

melee/agility-based, and their general concept revolves around poison blades and shadow abilities. Their ability concepts make them VERY similar to Rogues.

Again, the poison theme was dropped with HotS. You still cannot wear plate as a Rogue, can't wield an Umbra crescent or have any jailer-themed abilities.

[Ielenia]

There has been multiple examples of classes retaining abilities they received from the artifact weapons in Legion. I’m not aware of any case of classes retaining an ability from a world quest.

What about the abilities form the Heart of Azeroth?

There is a big difference between an ability being removed at the end of an expansion,

Such as the abilities granted by Sylvanas' gear. Hell, those abilities might end up even removed before the expansion is over with the new ranged weapons from the 9.2 raid.

and you losing an ability when you complete a quest.

The Heart of Azeroth is not "a quest".

They still have the Dark Ranger hood,

So my shaman is a dark ranger too? Because I'm using that hood on my shaman.

and they will always have Sylvanas’ bow and quiver.

And we still have the Heart of Azeroth. Is my warrior a shaman now because I can summon an elemental with it?

Additionally, there is a high chance they will be getting Wailing Arrow and/or Withering Fire in future expansions.

You don't know if it's a high chance. All you can say is "there is a chance". You don't know if it's high or low.

- - - Updated - - -

The demon hunter concept, and the demon hunter class, is unique in comparison to the other classes in the game in that it takes from a single concept and does not incorporate anything else into it.

Havoc and Vengeance are TWO concepts, not one.

Again, bullshit.

Because you completely misunderstood what I originally said.

I said that the demon hunter class is just one single concept: the demon hunter. There is no other unit, hero or otherwise, from the Warcraft 3 game that is added into it, or from any other concept in popular media (comics, movies, cartoons, games, etc).

In contrast, the mage class is comprised of at least three concepts from the Warcraft 3 game: the Archmage hero unit, the Blood Mage hero unit, and the Sorceress unit. And the paladin comes from the paladin unit in WC3, as well as the popular media concept of the paladin: the inquisitor, the healer, and the protector.

I never said anything about Blizzard "pulling more concepts out of a single concept", which is the case of Havoc and Vengeance specs.

[Triceron]

I never said anything about Blizzard "pulling more concepts out of a single concept", which is the case of Havoc and Vengeance specs.

Then how exactly does that exclude Spellcasting and Ranged gameplay being 'pulled out of a single concept'?

You meant to use this to explain why how they aren't spellcasters. Instead you are now admitting that more concepts can be 'pulled out of a single concept', as well as admitted that Metamorphosis actually IS a fully ranged form in WC3.

Therefore your explanation that there is any singular concept that would exclude Ranged or Spellcasting gameplay is bullshit. Whether you like ot or not, spellcasting and ranged abilities exist in the Demon Hunter's concept. Nothing in your argument works to exclude that from the discussion at hand. All you have pointed out is how Blizzard has chosen not to focus on those particular gameplay themes, not that they do not exist in the original concept of the Demon Hunter.

I said that the demon hunter class is just one single concept: the demon hunter. There is no other unit, hero or otherwise, from the Warcraft 3 game that is added into it, or from any other concept in popular media (comics, movies, cartoons, games, etc).

The Demon Hunter is a culmination of popular fantasy archetypes. They're Warcraft universe's unique spin on the Vampire/Witch Hunter trope; a dark, brooding anti-hero that specializes in hunting the supernatural. They are often outcasts to their own society, yet still working to protect those who openly fear or forsake them. Popular ones include Alucard, Vampire Hunter D, Blade and the Witcher. Many have supernatural abilities to see and recognize dark entities, have supernatural speed and combat skills, and are generally specialized in using exotic bladed weaponry.

Beyond that, you have plenty of 'Dark Warrior who deals with demons' archetypes incorporated into the Demon Hunter concept, like Malus Darkblade of Warhammer Fantasy and Elric of Melnibone. The idea that a skilled outcast warrior deals with dark supernatural entities for more power.

Then you have the 'Inner Demon' tropes, where a character literally embodies themselves as a dark supernatural entity.

The Demon Hunter is a collection of multiple tropes and archetypes into one. Illidan is a unique concept because he is not a derivative of any one singular trope or archetype, he is a culmination of many abstracted into a unique part of Warcraft history; the War of the Ancients and the Sundering. Demon Hunters are much like the Night Elves as a race; we can see that even the Night Elves are not a completely unique concept since they derive their roots from both Wood Elf and Dark Elf fantasy tropes. Demon Hunters are also rooted in Vampire Hunter/Witch Hunter archetypes, with an Inner Demon complex that allows them access to supernatural powers.

None of this excludes the use of magic and spellcasting as a part of the trope. When we consider that the concept of turning into a demon as a Demon Hunter is a supernatural power that is bolstered by the already-adept Sorcerer magical abilities of Illidan, spellcasting is absolutely a part of the Demon Hunter's concept. We're even shown Illidan being adept at opening portals to different worlds, using ancient artifacts through ritual spells like the Eye of Sargeras, and plenty more. When we consider that the whole concept of visual Horns and Wings come directly from Illidan, and not the basic WC3 multiplayer Demon Hunters, the connection to magic becomes even more apparant.

The only difference here is Blizzard decided not to extrapolate these themes into its own playable spec. Otherwise we've already seen what Metamorphosis ranged gameplay already looks like, and Demonology did a far closer representation to the original WC3 ultimate than the current Havoc and Vengeance Metamorphosis does.

Again, you are free to have the opinion that Spellcasting and Ranged combat does not fit their concept. Yet none of your actual explanations or examples actually support your argument that they are not part of the concept; they absolutely already are, and the archetype broadly incorporates many different popular culture archetypes to create the unique Demon Hunter class as we know of it today. Spellcasting and Ranged gameplay were definitely a part of that concept in WC3, and continue to be part of the concept through Illidan and his history as a Sorcerer.

[Candlewick]

If we're being fair here, there are only 2 remaining WC3 heroes that have abilities that have never shown up in the class lineup;

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...intinker.shtml
http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...lchemist.shtml

Now while too many people focus on the first hero, they tend to ignore the second here there. In addition, there are other units in WC3 that back up those two heroes;

http://classic.battle.net/war3/human...gmachine.shtml
http://classic.battle.net/war3/human...rtarteam.shtml
http://classic.battle.net/war3/human...geengine.shtml
http://classic.battle.net/war3/orc/u...batrider.shtml
http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutral/goblins.shtml

We have precedent for this with the Death Knight hero, which took abilities from multiple similarly themed heroes and units, which in turn allowed the class to have a Frost spec which is clearly based on the Lich hero, a ghoul summon which was a unit in WC3, Necromancer abilities, Banshee abilities, etc. In addition, Shaman, Druids, Mages, Rogues, and Hunters took from multiple heroes and units. So again, the precedent is there.

If you take all of those unused themes together, I can definitely see them create a much more holistic class concept that goes beyond Goblins and in fact incorporates pretty much every race in the game. Maybe you get an Ogre or Hobgoblin you can do "experiments" on that gives it crazy buffs? Maybe you have a spray gun that sprays various toxins on enemies, or healing agents on allies? Maybe you have a variety of chemical bombs that do all sorts of wild effects? Maybe we swing harder into the magi-tech found among Draenei and Elven artificers? Maybe you get a more Batman-style class that incorporates more shadowy skills and combine them with some tech gadgets (something along the lines of the Diablo Demon Hunter)? Maybe you actually get a Dark Ranger, but it's using a slew of chemical weapons from its forsaken roots instead of banshee abilities?

Again, too many people focus on the first hero, but seemingly ignore the rather broad amount of classes possible from the open abilities present. In short, I don't know what you would call such a class, but it would open it up to be physical ranged and any spec, which is quite desirable to the user base.

Hearthstone (Again) shows us some interesting possibilities;



Magitech;




Ranged weapons attached to the character, or maybe a mutated minion that you control;



Examples of possible buffs via the Transmute ability from the Alchemist hero;

I could see alchemists working... make their damage heavily splashed based and have a heavy focus on ground effects. I have no idea what weapons they would use though.

[Al Gorefiend]

Nobody else expected this thread to turn into shit slinging at other people's class concept ideas.

Tinker makes the most sense, no other class covers it anymore. Survival isn't even about explosives anymore, it's like a jungle headhunter.

Engineering = tinker what enchanting = mage

There that covers my takes.

[deenman]

She survives.

no i mean after jailer raid

[username993720]

no i mean after jailer raid

She survives?
I mean... i don't see the point of giving her like 5 different models and focusing on her waking up just so she would die.

[qwerty123456]

But no "caster" spec or "ranged" spec, which should exist by your logic.


They can't stay in "perma-demon form" because it allows the inner demon to further corrupt the demon hunter and eventually take over: "Assuming Metamorphosis form is a very dangerous feat to undertake: unleashing the demon within is risking that the demonic power will take over."


So you're treating the auto-attack as an ability now?

I didn't say it should exist but that it could and would fit within the lore. Just because Blizzard doesn't do something right away doesn't mean they wont change it later. Just look at all the changes demonolgy went through.

By perma demon form I mean like a combat form. The only reason they made the demon forms so short timewise is because they wanted them to feel powerful.

But it is also established in game that playable demon hunters have an immortal demon soul like Illidan so theoretically if we had our bodies destroyed or our soul left our body for what ever reason we could possess a suitable body as a replacement. There are also lots of demons that sided with Illidan and us so it also wouldn't be hard to make an explanation of a demon willingly letting us possess them.

You literally have been treating warglaives as a must have when it was only an auto attack in WC3 everything else was a spell cast or a "natural" ability like demon form and evasion/dodge/what ever it was called. And yes transforming from a melee attack into a powerful ranged attack is a new ability.

- - - Updated - - -

I could see alchemists working... make their damage heavily splashed based and have a heavy focus on ground effects. I have no idea what weapons they would use though.

It's funny he's ok with alchemists now when I made this thread years ago :
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lchemist-(wip)
and all he could say was :

This concept seems better served as the basis for a Tinker healing spec instead of its own class.

And the heal spec was the least interesting of the three specs I came up with lol.

[shoc]

Tinker is the only good class concept left on the board.

Tank spec, Mekgineer. Race specific shredder form a la Guardian Druid.
Healing spec, Apothecary. Alchemist style concoctions and potions.
Ranged DPS spec, Sapper. Grenades, bombs, turrets, gadgets.

Each a fundamental and unrepresented aspect of the Warcraft lore. Easy fuckin peasy.

[Ielenia]

Then how exactly does that exclude Spellcasting and Ranged gameplay being 'pulled out of a single concept'?

Because the concept of the demon hunter is of a melee combatant that uses their warglaives and empowers themselves with demonic powers.

You meant to use this to explain why how they aren't spellcasters. Instead you are now admitting that more concepts can be 'pulled out of a single concept',

From an orange you can pull orange seeds, and orange juices. But you can't pull a watermelon seed or apple juice out of it. The DH is the orange, havoc is the orange seed, Vengeance is the orange juice. And then we have the spellcaster being the watermelon seed and bow-user being the apple juice.

- - - Updated - - -

I didn't say it should exist but that it could and would fit within the lore.

No. No, it does not fit the lore as it is. The demon hunter concept in the lore is of a melee combatant, and not a ranged spellcaster/

Just because Blizzard doesn't do something right away doesn't mean they wont change it later.

That is a change that would alter the entire concept behind the demon hunter.

By perma demon form I mean like a combat form. The only reason they made the demon forms so short timewise is because they wanted them to feel powerful.

Again, no. It's spelled, black-on-white, that they cannot stay in demon form for long.

But it is also established in game that playable demon hunters have an immortal demon soul like Illidan so theoretically if we had our bodies destroyed or our soul left our body for what ever reason we could possess a suitable body as a replacement. There are also lots of demons that sided with Illidan and us so it also wouldn't be hard to make an explanation of a demon willingly letting us possess them.

Ignoring how this ranged spec would completely change the concept of the demon hunter class, how would that work when changing specs, considering it wouldn't be 'our body' anymore

You literally have been treating warglaives as a must have when it was only an auto attack in WC3 everything else was a spell cast or a "natural" ability like demon form and evasion/dodge/what ever it was called. And yes transforming from a melee attack into a powerful ranged attack is a new ability.

Because it is a 'must-have'. Blizzard added the warglaive weapon and warglaive weapon-type for the demon hunters and for the demon hunters only. No other class can use warglaives. Both specs of the demon hunter use warglaives. Even back in TBC, all demon hunters wielded only warglaives.

[cocomen2]

Because the concept of the demon hunter is of a melee combatant that uses their warglaives and empowers themselves with demonic powers.

Why do i feel that even if we remove warglaives and melee part, its still gonna be very same demon hunter, whole idea of demon hunter is "Fight fire with fire" thus become Demon to fight demons, without care what kind of weapon you use, its just so happen that for Illidan they make these cool weapons.

Weapon didn't made character demon hunter, demon soul did.
We have Hunter spec that uses not a BOW so its okay to assume we can get demon hunter without warglaives.(and yeah Hunter was using only ranged weapon for ages, but now its not even dual axe spec of Rexxar, its some freaking spear.

Not warglaives

[Triceron]

Because the concept of the demon hunter is of a melee combatant that uses their warglaives and empowers themselves with demonic powers.

Which is true up until you factor in that Metamorphosis was depicted with a Ranged attack ability; a concept that was translated directly into WoW through Demonology.

WC3 Metamorphosis was neither melee-based nor did they use their Warglaives to fight. That is the concept of the Demon Hunter of WC3, no matter how much you try to ignore it existing.

From an orange you can pull orange seeds, and orange juices. But you can't pull a watermelon seed or apple juice out of it. The DH is the orange, havoc is the orange seed, Vengeance is the orange juice. And then we have the spellcaster being the watermelon seed and bow-user being the apple juice.

Terrible example. What makes spellcasting watermelon seeds? What makes Vengeance orange juice? You're basically looking at the Orange in its complete form, and trying to convince yourself that that the orange peel is 'watermelon seeds'. Spellcasting and Ranged combat is and has always been part of the Demon Hunter concept, even if you're trying to shift the goalpost to 'bows'.

Ranged combat is already a part of the WC3 concept through Mana Burn and ranged Metamorphosis. Again, I'm pointing out that you're either lying or being incredibly ignorant to what the original WC3 concept had for the Demon Hunter. Demonology fully covered this aspect of gameplay, defining it pretty darn close to the original WC3 concept including using a 'Shadow Illidan' model.

Can you explain how the WC3 Metamorphosis ranged combat fits into a SINGULAR melee concept? The simple answer here is that your explanation is either a lie, or a bullshit one made in ignorance. And that's pretty much what you are presenting your argument as, one that ignores the fact that Ranged abilities and Spellcasting are a part of the original WC3 Demon Hunter concept, which the WoW Demon Hunter is based off of.


You need to stop arguing for the sake of arguing and listen to what we're saying here. We're not suggesting that the Demon Hunter should get a Ranged or Spellcasting spec. We're pointing out how you're absolute WRONG to state that it is not a part of the Demon Hunter concept, because even from WC3 it absolutely is, and is baked into its ULTIMATE ability. It is one of the few Heroes that you could even point at in the game that CHANGES THEIR ATTACK TYPE from melee to ranged.

Look at other units and heroes that have transformation abilities in WC3. Druid of the Claw with Bear Form, Tinker with Robo Form, Mountain King with Avatar all maintain their Melee-based attacks with their transformations. Demon Hunter clearly changes their attack into a Ranged, Spell-based (magical Chaos damage bolts) attack. You can't claim that they have a singularly melee concept when they are one of the only heroes in WC3 that actually changes their attack type from melee to ranged.

That's like saying Shamans are singularly melee all while ignoring the fact that Elemental is a ranged spec, and using whole bunch of mental gymnastics like "they equip melee weapons" to justify that argument of ignorance. Again, it's pure bullshit, because the WC3 Demon Hunter has a fully ranged (60 range, same as most Ranged heroes) attack in Metamorphosis.

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Again, no. It's spelled, black-on-white, that they cannot stay in demon form for long.

In WC3, it lasts 60 sec on a 180 cooldown. You're looking at a 33% uptime (CD starts ticking upon activation), and you only have to wait 120 sec until the next Metamorphosis after the first ends. It's not a short duration at all. It's the same duration as most summoned units, like Water Elementals.