Equality

[Varodoc]

Are you really comparing Benedictus,Fandral,Cordana and Bolvar with Sylvanas,Garrosh,Voljin and Saurfang? You had a better pointed if you named Arthas but none of those were important Alliance leaders.

Benedictus: Leader of the Church of the Holy Light, which is the main religion of the Alliance. He was basically the Pope of the Alliance (not just of Stormwind, since many dwarves also worship the Light).

Fandral: Co-leader of the Kaldorei, leader of the Druids, was the one who created Teldrassil.

Cordana: Prominent Alliance character in the WoD Alliance storyline.

Bolvar: Literally the original leader and Regent of Stormwind while Varian was gone, the one who gave elite quests to high-level Alliance players.

I can already tell you are not arguing in good faith so I won't reply to you anymore.

Suffice to say that there is no inequality of any kind towards the Horde. If anything, both MoP and BfA have done wonders for the Horde, by putting them in the absolute spotlight at the complete expense of the Alliance cities.

[Syegfryed]

Benedictus: Leader of the Church of the Holy Light, which is the main religion of the Alliance. He was basically the Pope of the Alliance (not just of Stormwind, since many dwarves also worship the Light).

he was barely a npc, he is not a racial leader.

Fandral: Co-leader of the Kaldorei, leader of the Druids, was the one who created Teldrassil.

he was not the leader of the elves, if you are counting that horde lost many more clan chieftains

Cordana: Prominent Alliance character in the WoD Alliance storyline.

a random npc, Horde lost much more "prominent characters".

I can already tell you are biased so this is my last reply to you.

you are the one biased here, nothing you said rly compares what the horde lost.

for every random npc you said horde lost more leaders, plus their own npcs, its not even a comparison.

[Pakheth]

As long as my boy Lor'themar stay balls deep in Thalyssra and out of harms way I'm happy.

I'm just glad she picked an elf and not another human male for a lover. That trope was starting to get tiresome.
Helps that both are cool characters voiced by talented people.

[Dancaris]

Cordana: Prominent Alliance character in the WoD Alliance storyline.

Absolute neutral from the start, aside Khadgar, you mean?

[Rhelyo]

Benedictus: Leader of the Church of the Holy Light, which is the main religion of the Alliance. He was basically the Pope of the Alliance (not just of Stormwind, since many dwarves also worship the Light).

Fandral: Co-leader of the Kaldorei, leader of the Druids, was the one who created Teldrassil.

Cordana: Prominent Alliance character in the WoD Alliance storyline.

Bolvar: Literally the original leader and Regent of Stormwind while Varian was gone, the one who gave elite quests to high-level Alliance players.

I can already tell you are not arguing in good faith so I won't reply to you anymore.

Suffice to say that there is no inequality of any kind towards the Horde. If anything, both MoP and BfA have done wonders for the Horde, by putting them in the absolute spotlight at the complete expense of the Alliance cities.

Tyrande/Malfurion the leaders of nightelf both alive and well since the start of the game
Anduin which replaced Varian which i do agree on that Alliance lost this leader
Magni leader of the dwarfs which was replaced by the Council of Three Hammers all are alive
Mekkatorque leader of the gnomes which is alive and well
Prophet Velen leader of draenei alive and well
Genn Greymane leader of the worgen alive and well
I wont count the pandaren as both factions benefit from them.

Baine leader of the tauren which replaced Cairne after his death
Lor'Themar leader of the blood elves which replaced Kael'Thas but i wont count him since Kael was never leader in the game since TBC started so alive and well.
Vol'jin was the leader of the trolls which was appointed warchief and died
Sylvanas leader of the forsaken which was appointed warchief at the end of BfA that left the forsaken without a leader remains to be seen of her fate.
Thrall leader of orcs stepped down and appointed Garrosh as leader which was killed in Mists,followed by Voljin which was named as leader of the orcs and warchief which was killed in Legion,which named Sylvanas as warchief and possibly leader of the orcs since she did reside in Orgrimmar which remains to be seen of her fate.
Gallywix leader of goblins alive and well.

At the moment 3 horde races orcs,forsaken and trolls got no real leader.
You do not see anything wrong?

And one last thing since Gallywix worked really close with Sylvanas in recovering azerite in Bfa and knowing him as a shady character i do believe he is next on the list to die. Remember that in BfA that was the last thing we saw of him before we went to Shadowlands so i do expect his demise soon.

[Varodoc]

At the moment 3 horde races orcs,forsaken and trolls got no real leader.
You do not see anything wrong?

No, I don't. All I see is that the Horde has been written masterfully so far and that it is in the best position it's ever been since, hmm, forever. Since now the Horde is no longer choked under the yoke of a dictator, but is instead led by a Council of all voices.

And what you said here is Factually wrong.

Thrall has returned as the leader of the Durotar orcs and their representative on the Council.

Lillian Voss is the de-facto leader of the Forsaken and their representative on the Council, at least while Calia musters the strength she needs to succeed her father.

Rokhan is the de-facto leader of the Darkspears and their representative on the Council.

All these races have clear, defined leaders.

And one last thing since Gallywix worked really close with Sylvanas in recovering azerite in Bfa and knowing him as a shady character i do believe he is next on the list to die. Remember that in BfA that was the last thing we saw of him before we went to Shadowlands so i do expect his demise soon.

Absolutely nothing of value would be lost.

Gallywix might be one of the most despicable characters in the entire Warcraft franchise. He has literally no redeeming quality whatsoever. He is utterly ugly and filthy, he lies, cheats, oppresses his people, and will throw the Horde under a bus if it benefits him. His death is beneficial to all. The Horde first of all.

[DatToffer]

Why did you not point out that OP was wrong to mention Sylvanas then, lol.

Because I didn't indulge in the pointless debate of "who lost more" until I saw this hilarious demonstration of bad faith.

Also Sylvanas is a whole other sort of problem.

Gallywix might be one of the most despicable characters in the entire Warcraft franchise. He has literally no redeeming quality whatsoever. He lies, cheats, oppresses his people, and will throw the Horde under a bus if it benefits him. His death is beneficial to all. The Horde first of all.

Absolutely agree with this. The only quality of Galliwyx was that he had all the faults of the goblins. He was a true evil goblin to the bone.

But he should have died at the end of the goblin starting zone and never get the lead back.

I'm only disappointed they felt the need to make Gazlowe a bit softer than he usually is, just to make sure we understand he's a better leader than Galliwyx.

[Steelangel]

Because Blizzard shit the bed for years with the Alliance, failing to make them anything other than Lawful Stupid with zero nuance that the Horde has to be the bad guys if we're going to rehash another faction conflict every 3-4 years.

"Blizzard has been in bed with the Alliance..."

While giving the Horde more amusing quest design, not paying attention at all to faction balance, nerfing Alliance racials in raids, not splitting the Nightborne as a neutral race, etc. The only thing the Alliance has going for it is that it has the overarching "good guy" storyline that has no effect on players' experience of the game itself.

They either lean way into the "Horde is evil" tropes that they have been pushing since MoP or just give up and merge the factions. In the new book, Zappyboi wondering why the Night Elves were still fightin' mad after his faction literally committed genocide against them is a symptom of the writers trying to pussyfoot around a faction that has now, twice, gone the route of wanton destruction and evil: first Pandaria, then Teldrassil.

- - - Updated - - -

Because the conquering Horde story is the most interesting Horde story.

<snipped>

This! All of this. Don't forget Wildstar's Dominion, which was definitely the cartoon-level evil that would fit right into WoW's universe.

The bigger problem is that the "heroes" are all working together to stop evil baddie #532895 from destroying the universe every damn expansion. Saving the day for what? So the Horde can go on pillaging and the Alliance can go on feeling bad about it? Yech.

[Dakhath]

"Blizzard has been in bed with the Alliance..."

While giving the Horde more amusing quest design, not paying attention at all to faction balance, nerfing Alliance racials in raids, not splitting the Nightborne as a neutral race, etc. The only thing the Alliance has going for it is that it has the overarching "good guy" storyline that has no effect on players' experience of the game itself.

They either lean way into the "Horde is evil" tropes that they have been pushing since MoP or just give up and merge the factions. In the new book, Zappyboi wondering why the Night Elves were still fightin' mad after his faction literally committed genocide against them is a symptom of the writers trying to pussyfoot around a faction that has now, twice, gone the route of wanton destruction and evil: first Pandaria, then Teldrassil.

- - - Updated - - -



This! All of this. Don't forget Wildstar's Dominion, which was definitely the cartoon-level evil that would fit right into WoW's universe.

The bigger problem is that the "heroes" are all working together to stop evil baddie #532895 from destroying the universe every damn expansion. Saving the day for what? So the Horde can go on pillaging and the Alliance can go on feeling bad about it? Yech.

Try actually reading what I said before responding. I said Blizzard shit the bed with the Alliance, not in bed with them. Huge difference.

[Steelangel]

Try actually reading what I said before responding. I said Blizzard shit the bed with the Alliance, not in bed with them. Huge difference.

Depends on your kinks

But you're right, I misinterpreted.

[Candlewick]

Sounds like Warcraft isn't for you, then. Since the entire point of the franchise since RoC was breaking the stereotypical chaotic evil orc stereotype that every other franchise with orcs uses. I love the simple minded viewpoint that there's nothing between "bloodthirsty warmongers" and "human but with huts and spikes."

Was it roc or the expansion where the horde drank demon blood for shits and giggles and rampages again?

[DatToffer]

Was it roc or the expansion where the horde drank demon blood for shits and giggles and rampages again?

Yeah. When Cenarius was like "Begone foul demons, you no take wood from my woods". And Mannoroth was like "Hehe, I'll put some of my blood here, they won't be able to resist". And Grom was like "Oh no the reindeer god is too powerful, we have no choice but to drink the demon blood again".

And this time there was no Malorne to take the blow for the four legs Jesus, so he dieded until we needed him again in Cataclysm.

Good times.

[Candlewick]

Yeah. When Cenarius was like "Begone foul demons, you no take wood from my woods". And Mannoroth was like "Hehe, I'll put some of my blood here, they won't be able to resist". And Grom was like "Oh no the reindeer god is too powerful, we have no choice but to drink the demon blood again".

And this time there was no Malorne to take the blow for the four legs Jesus, so he dieded until we needed him again in Cataclysm.

Good times.

They could of just fucked off from his woods...

[DatToffer]

They could of just fucked off from his woods...

Nah man, that's not how it works. They needed the wood to build cities and stuff and the elves had plenty they didn't even use.

Plus Grom was sent on lumberjack duty because he had anger management issues, so hunting down his workers before hiding and giggling in the woods was not a good idea.

[cparle87]

Was it roc or the expansion where the horde drank demon blood for shits and giggles and rampages again?

Reign of Chaos, as in the first part of Warcraft 3. The first time the orcs weren't portrayed as bloodthristy psychos. You know, the one that introduced Thrall, Illidan, Arthas, etc?

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Was it roc or the expansion where the horde drank demon blood for shits and giggles and rampages again?

It becomes more and more clear on how much you don't know the story/lore and what bias really drives your posts.

[Fistfighter]

Why are the Horde always written as the "bad guys"?

Because that's how the duality of warcraft storytelling always worked.
Why are we still discussing this?

YES, it would be cool to see some "bad" characters come from Alliance for once, that would be cool, but it's never gonna happen because that's how the writting has been set-up since beggining, and when they try to make some unexpected narrative twists, we end up with something like the Jailer.

[Feanoro]

At the moment 3 horde races orcs,forsaken and trolls got no real leader.
You do not see anything wrong?

At the moment, three Alliance races are homeless refugees, while your claim of no leaders has been debunked.

@Steelangel A wise poster (can't find the original quote) once said, "The Alliance saves the world so the Horde can destroy it."

[AngerFork]

At the moment, three Alliance races are homeless refugees, while your claim of no leaders has been debunked.

@Steelangel A wise poster (can't find the original quote) once said, "The Alliance saves the world so the Horde can destroy it."

It's not like the Alliance has the sole claim to homeless races. Mag'har Orcs lost their entire planet. The Forsaken lost their home to the Blight. The Goblins maybe have Azshara, but they don't really have their own home city. The Vulpera never really had a home, not like they need one anyhow.

[Magnagarde]

There's usually no equality of the kind you seek in good storytelling; it goes against an interesting narrative overall because the author is limited by the desired equality of outcome for all the sides involved. Look at Warcraft 3; the Alliance of Lordaeron met its end in that game, whereas the Horde found new footing.