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  1. #1

    MM hunter is a mess

    I like to make my own OCD weak auras. I really like how things come together in a perfect way. It also makes me perform extremely well - as I have to learn ins/outs, rotation and CD usage. I can honestly suggest you to try it - it is the best way to improve.

    I've perfected more less each class - I just had to work on my MM hunter.

    I have failed after spending whole 3 days(something that usually takes few hours - and I got some good experience with WA). I'm not even joking and frankly a bit salty.

    I had to give up - the rotation is simple on paper - but when you actually dig in it - you see how awful the design is. There are things that won't work in conditional setting(or at least Ive failed to see the logic for the first time in this project - which is the point - anyone should be able to understand the meaning of given rotation).

    Elemental shamans with far more dynamics, with much better flow - while the 3-4 buttons and Trueskill iteration is seriously dumb and just compensating with high crit damage.

    What is your opinion about the MM?
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-01-05 at 12:43 AM.

  2. #2
    Hunter used to be my main for years, trying sometimes to make it back, but it just falls short.

    First, they killed the old survival and implemented this melee abomination spec no one asked for. And at the same time, they destroyed MM in Legion.

    Basically, just BM feels good to play atm. Really sad state of afairs.

  3. #3
    It's the best it has been in a long time, no idea what you are talking about.

    And the coming set bonus will make it even better.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  4. #4
    I miss WoD MM. I can't stand MM right now.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    It's the best it has been in a long time, no idea what you are talking about.

    And the coming set bonus will make it even better.
    It's the best is not the same as good.

    Try playing any priest spec - and you see how it flows(or any other class for that matter).

    It got serious problems dictating the rotational gimmick. I dare you to make your own WA for the rotation, if you insist on:

    1)Not capping energy.
    2)Not capping aimed shot.
    3)Spending precise shots optimally.
    4)Spending focus on arcane shots optimally.
    5)Rapid Fire and coventant abilties got it's own priority.
    6)Put the Trueshot rotation on top of that.

    The WA must have a flow to a point, that you can turn off your brain and only light up relevant skills(works every time - IF the spec is designed accordingly meaningful/logical). This is how I know if a spec is designed well and if it flows well(no matter the amount of CDs) - and you should technically not need any WA to perform perfectly. In this case - using WA is not even enough.

    You can't even make it work with 4-5 buttons in conditional setting, unless you got higher than average IQ or a math professor. I did actually spend 3 days on it and had to give up in frustration(I might just be really salty here).

    It's simple if you don't care about any of this - but that means you press buttons randomly each fight, as you don't have any blueprint design(and you don't want to become the human simcraft like me).
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-01-05 at 12:21 PM.

  6. #6
    The problem u have found with MM is that it lacks a central mechanic to be center around, ideally something that fits the theme of the spec.

    Fire mages are probably the best example of this idea. The spec all about massive fireballs have a central mechanic around stacking crits leading up to pyroblast.
    The abilities, talents and eventual rotation is built around this central pillar. Either making it easier, more rewarding, or diversifying in a slightly different direction.

    MM doesn't have this. At best it's about not running out of focus, but there isn't a way this mechanic is apparent to the player through the given abilities and talents, at best it's an incidental ability on the side.
    Abilities are used not according to any logical flow beyond Aimed shot doing the most damage=use loads of aimed shot.

    Hopefully going forward we could see MM gain a more distinct set of abilities centered around a theme. Personally I was a fan of the BfA version we had in Uldir where you buffed Aimed Shot to absurd levels and did massive damage.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  7. #7
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Best dps spec in the game and best hunters have been since wrath id say.

    Wish it had some minor changes like SS being baseline a easy way to use hero without a pet and some other tiny tweaks.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    It's the best is not the same as good.

    Try playing any priest spec - and you see how it flows(or any other class for that matter).
    I played shadow all through CN. In ST it is fine, but it's AE setup is incredibly bad/awkward. MM is leagues ahead of it. And Disc and Holy are a complete mess. The latter is entirely propped up by a legendary making you spam one spell.

    Only major tweaks I'd like to see are:

    1) some way to use pet for hero without the annoyance of summoning, like above
    2) general talent tweaks that all classes need. Some stuff needs to become baseline.
    Last edited by Tyris Flare; 2022-01-05 at 04:43 PM.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynx View Post
    Hunter used to be my main for years, trying sometimes to make it back, but it just falls short.

    First, they killed the old survival and implemented this melee abomination spec no one asked for. And at the same time, they destroyed MM in Legion.

    Basically, just BM feels good to play atm. Really sad state of afairs.
    I mained hunter since tbc till they killed off survival spec ranged and try to stick with bm/mm. Right now this xpac where mm are at feels boring and terrible. Bm I'm tired of pet Depending all the time. I want something different. Melee survival spec can go fuck off itself.

  10. #10
    MM Hunter was the best at the end of Legion in my experience. The AoE build at the start of Legion was extremely fun too(looking at you M Il'gynoth). The Vulnerable window contributed to this, making it the referent point of the rotation.

    The problem in Shadowlands is that there's too much "free walk"; you have to avoid capping focus with the right ability, ignoring almost all procs, especially during big CDs that are unrelated to the Covenant abilities. This makes it too imperfect for anyone looking to perfect their performance in a way that'll allow them to have a standard rotation all the time. Sure, there's priorities with and without CDs, but it feels like a messy free-walking spec with lots of abilities off CD and remaining useless. All there is to it is not to cap Aimed Shot, not to cap focus and to keep focus up with RF on CD.

    I had the most fun and the spec felt the most engaging in Legion because MM Hunter had a clear purpose and something to focus on(no pun intended) during the rotation. The last time before Legion that I enjoyed MM that much were TBC and Cataclysm, mainly for PvP though. I didn't play throughout MoP and WoD and I'm told the HFC MM was an amazing spec. Can't judge what I didn't experience though.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2022-01-05 at 05:34 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    MM Hunter was the best at the end of Legion in my experience. The AoE build at the start of Legion was extremely fun too(looking at you M Il'gynoth). The Vulnerable window contributed to this, making it the referent point of the rotation.

    The problem in Shadowlands is that there's too much "free walk"; you have to avoid capping focus with the right ability, ignoring almost all procs, especially during big CDs that are unrelated to the Covenant abilities. This makes it too imperfect for anyone looking to perfect their performance in a way that'll allow them to have a standard rotation all the time. Sure, there's priorities with and without CDs, but it feels like a messy free-walking spec with lots of abilities off CD and remaining useless. All there is to it is not to cap Aimed Shot, not to cap focus and to keep focus up with RF on CD.

    I had the most fun and the spec felt the most engaging in Legion because MM Hunter had a clear purpose and something to focus on(no pun intended) during the rotation. The last time before Legion that I enjoyed MM that much were TBC and Cataclysm, mainly for PvP though. I didn't play throughout MoP and WoD and I'm told the HFC MM was an amazing spec. Can't judge what I didn't experience though.
    I couldn't quite figure out how to articulate what (at the core) was wrong with MM causing me to not like it, thanks for this description. It fits perfectly.

    When I did play it (in SL), having to "focus" on the "don't let this cap," "only use this when this is happening," and all the many overlaps, it wasn't fun. Outside of the burst phase when all CD's are up, the filler parts around it are not fun.

    Yes, HFC MM in WoD was very very fun, had a flow, and was incredibly fun.
    Last edited by Armael; 2022-01-05 at 06:43 PM.

  12. #12
    I disagree. The way that trick shots currently work is super satisfying now as is the aimed shot/rapid fire interaction. I absolutely hated the spec in Legion and how hard it was to do even remotely the same damage as BM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    It's the best it has been in a long time, no idea what you are talking about.

    And the coming set bonus will make it even better.
    you know people have different opinions and taste. sounds weird, i know.

    For me i dislike Fury since WoD now. Miss the old wotlk/(especially) cata/mop fury. But most people these days love fury.

  14. #14
    I mean yeah, we are expressing our opinions
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by EbaumsTipster View Post
    I disagree. The way that trick shots currently work is super satisfying now as is the aimed shot/rapid fire interaction. I absolutely hated the spec in Legion and how hard it was to do even remotely the same damage as BM.
    Those are the only positives though, I don't particularly disagree. However, trick shots on many boss fights is lame because it can't be triggered with volley. They need to add something that has maybe a 1 minute CD kinda like Arcane Mage where they can gain 4 arcane charges off the bat to MM, to have them activate a Trick Shots effect on ST.

  16. #16
    Other than the conflict between Trueshot and Precise Shots, I think it's fine. Might be nice to have a deeper focus pool, too to avoid some of the inevitable capping in and around CDs

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Armael View Post
    However, trick shots on many boss fights is lame because it can't be triggered with volley.
    ...but Trick Shots IS active during Volley...

    Really not sure what you mean here...do you mean Multi-shot instead of Volley? But then I'm still not really sure...because why do we need Trick Shots in single target...?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    I dare you to make your own WA for the rotation, if you insist on:

    1)Not capping energy.
    2)Not capping aimed shot.
    3)Spending precise shots optimally.
    4)Spending focus on arcane shots optimally.
    5)Rapid Fire and coventant abilties got it's own priority.
    6)Put the Trueshot rotation on top of that.
    I don't do a lot of WA stuff: is the problem the number of conditionals related to focus management? Such as the the way to balance focus depending on the remaining CD of Rapid fire, current focus level, status of Aimed Shot charges, etc?]

    Or is it that sometimes there isn't a best answer? I.E if the optimally balancing focus for when Rapid Fire comes off its CD requires one Steady Shot and two Arcane Shots in that time period, there isn't actually a "right way" to do that- it can be done in any order- and you can't communicate that to/through a WA?

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    It's simple if you don't care about any of this - but that means you press buttons randomly each fight, as you don't have any blueprint design(and you don't want to become the human simcraft like me).
    This binary you've set up is a non-sequitur.
    Last edited by Gestopft; 2022-01-05 at 10:28 PM.
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  17. #17
    Mechagnome Akta's Avatar
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    MM is all about planning ahead what you are doing. That's it is not a mess.
    ...Le Poète est semblable au prince des nuées
    Qui hante la tempête e se rit de l'archer;
    Exilé sul le sol au milieu des huées,
    Ses ailes de géant l'empêchent de marcher.

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  18. #18
    I am Murloc! crakerjack's Avatar
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    I love kyrian MM in m+. Those big pulls with resonating arrow and double tap are pretty fun and with the right group and dungeon, it’s easy to do north of 10k+ overall dps. I haven’t tried MM in a raid this expansion yet, so I can’t speak on it from that perspective. But for MM it’s one of, if not my favorite dps spec.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Armael View Post
    I couldn't quite figure out how to articulate what (at the core) was wrong with MM causing me to not like it, thanks for this description. It fits perfectly.
    It is what I "disliked" about the spec since day one of Shadowlands. At no point have I felt that the spec was this open-ended, yet so focus-restricted. I believe it would feel amazing if only they reworked the way focus is pooled as it would allow the current "rotation" to somewhat smoothly transition between regular abilities, both ST and AoE, and major CD planning. What is satisfying right now is the opener, largely thanks to the Night Fae and Kyrian covenant abilities. The GCD changes that date back to BfA don't help the current MM either. All specs would feel much better and smoother with Legion's GCD, but I believe that no spec's flow would benefit more from it than MM.

    The spec worked in a similar fashion during the Uldir raid and it felt slow and heavy at the time, but there was much less "free-walk". I'm glad you started this thread.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2022-01-05 at 08:27 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    Other than the conflict between Trueshot and Precise Shots, I think it's fine. Might be nice to have a deeper focus pool, too to avoid some of the inevitable capping in and around CDs

    - - - Updated - - -



    ...but Trick Shots IS active during Volley...

    Really not sure what you mean here...do you mean Multi-shot instead of Volley? But then I'm still not really sure...because why do we need Trick Shots in single target...?

    - - - Updated - - -



    This binary you've set up is a non-sequitur.
    I'm sorry, I meant when you can't activate it on ST with Multi-shot. Being forced to pick Volley for the usage of it otherwise is lame.

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