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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZEvasion View Post
    If all of BFA fits "a long time" then I'd agree.
    If we go further back then I'd disagree vehemently. The spec is pretty boring right now. The set bonus will correct it somewhat most likely, but it's really "meh" right now.

    The spec has a lot of "boring" sequences atm. Can't say how other classes play, I don't really care, if all classes are like that now it would simply tell me a lot about class design in general.
    The cooldown of AiS is simply too long outside of burst windows.

    I don't agree with OP either though, right now I can't see the trouble OP has with applying the rotation.
    The spec feels slow enough for me to actually be able to think about most stuff before I actually have to, or rather *can*, apply it.
    The most difficult thing for me is to time double tap with Rapidfire - and that just means it's the most difficult, not *actually* difficult.
    I'm saying that the MM is extremely simple on paper - and borderline impossible to master the mechanics with perfect rundown of the rotation/CDs. And I'm really frustrated about why they would design a spec like that and I start thinking that they had an incident with the MM.

    I don't know how you guys are playing the game - but for me classes are more than just aimed shot or pyroblast.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    I like to make my own OCD weak auras. I really like how things come together in a perfect way. It also makes me perform extremely well - as I have to learn ins/outs, rotation and CD usage. I can honestly suggest you to try it - it is the best way to improve.

    I've perfected more less each class - I just had to work on my MM hunter.

    I have failed after spending whole 3 days(something that usually takes few hours - and I got some good experience with WA). I'm not even joking and frankly a bit salty.

    I had to give up - the rotation is simple on paper - but when you actually dig in it - you see how awful the design is. There are things that won't work in conditional setting(or at least Ive failed to see the logic for the first time in this project - which is the point - anyone should be able to understand the meaning of given rotation).

    Elemental shamans with far more dynamics, with much better flow - while the 3-4 buttons and Trueskill iteration is seriously dumb and just compensating with high crit damage.

    What is your opinion about the MM?
    Have you considered that it may not be meant to be optimisable? Decisions ought to be meaningful, reactive, everchanging. Otherwise it's no genuine decision being made.

    Hell optimisable just means "It'd be better to just let a machine do this tedious stuff.". In that sense WoW could do with some pruning; just turn rotating stuff into auto attacks and focus on the interactive parts of the game.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynx View Post
    Hunter used to be my main for years, trying sometimes to make it back, but it just falls short.

    First, they killed the old survival and implemented this melee abomination spec no one asked for. And at the same time, they destroyed MM in Legion.

    Basically, just BM feels good to play atm. Really sad state of afairs.
    I actually like the way Surv plays, and ofc BM, but what killed the class for me was them changing the 1 sec GCD to 1.5 sec. Then giving Hunter basically the exact same resource as WW and Rogue.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post


    PvP is a different story. It's a good spec for cheap omg moments. As for PvE - I can assure you - there are classes both technically and fantasy wise functioning better(which I hold the standard up to).

    As for WA - you can certainly master WA/TMW in such way - that you will make less mistakes and play around resource/proc management best mathematically/logically possible way. As you design it yourself - you need to know the spec inside-out - which in return makes you focus more on the boss fight and helps with the muscle memory.

    I tend to have 4 rotational boxes and 4 boxes for CDs - they blur out and will only light up - when they are relevant. I don't even need to track mana/focus - as I conditionally built them.

    Basically the incident I had here was that arcane/steady shot with light up same time(technically making them both relevant - no matter my attempts to work around it) - or one of them will light up and cause me to waste resources. The Trueshot interaction makes everything 10x more complex and frankly - makes no sense.

    Despite the rotation on paper is very simple, there are no clear and well defined rotational goal. You kinda have to play your own little game inside the game - I really dislike this part.
    You don't seem to understand that just because you can't automate the spec with weakauras that doesn't mean the spec is badly designed.

    In fact, I'd argue the opposite, any spec you can make a weakaura to tell you the whole rotation for is a terrible spec and needs to be entirely redesigned. Multiple things being equal priority isn't bad, because it depends on the situation. Arcane/Steady Shot both being relevant is fine, because if you have full focus you know that arcane shot is priority and if you're low on focus you know you need to steady shot.

    Honestly it sounds like you dislike MM because it requires more brainpower than other specs, and therefore you think that the spec is poorly designed.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Have you considered that it may not be meant to be optimisable? Decisions ought to be meaningful, reactive, everchanging. Otherwise it's no genuine decision being made.

    Hell optimisable just means "It'd be better to just let a machine do this tedious stuff.". In that sense WoW could do with some pruning; just turn rotating stuff into auto attacks and focus on the interactive parts of the game.
    I mentioned something like that on the last page. He pretty much went "meh, you can do it with all the other specs, grats to me for picking the black sheep."

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Have you considered that it may not be meant to be optimisable? Decisions ought to be meaningful, reactive, everchanging. Otherwise it's no genuine decision being made.

    Hell optimisable just means "It'd be better to just let a machine do this tedious stuff.". In that sense WoW could do with some pruning; just turn rotating stuff into auto attacks and focus on the interactive parts of the game.
    I agree with you.

    Equally - you want to automate exactly whats meaningless and not ever changing(just like the case with MM).

    This is what MM is - no matter the decision you make, you will compensate by wasting. Not in a romantic RPG way. And for me that is stupid.

    This is not a question on when to spend Trueshot - in fact, Trueshot encourages you to waste procs.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    You can't really discuss with people by throwing them bunch of questions. I came up with my arguments - it's your turn.
    Seeking clarification is a perfectly normal part of discourse.

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    I made it very clear - through WA - you can define if a spec is badly designed or not(objectively - even if you don't like the fantasy of the spec). You call the short comings compared to other specs - simple by attempting to play around the mechanics, the best possible way.
    This is not an objective measure. It might be an important criteria for you, but it's certainly not objective.

    As an example, think about Cata Destro. If you never played it, it was basically the biggest clusterfuck of a rotation that has ever existed (all Lock specs were getting really messy, hence the redesign for MoP, but Destro had it the worst). You had four DoTs, two direct damage spells with CDs, a direct damage spell (tied to a 20-second maintenance buff) that usually had a cast time, but could also be made instant via a proc OR on command (a limited number of times in a fight), an execute (with a CD), and a spammable filler. It was an utter mess; the result not of any sort of internal logic, but of gradual ability bloat leading to enough abilities that simply had better DPCT than the filler, if even only slightly. However, it did have a pretty strict priority system. You'd be able to make a WA setup for it, and probably pretty easily because there was basically always a best answer. But the fact you could manage your buffs, DoTs, and ability CDs in the best mathematically possible way in no way means that Cata Destro was well designed.

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    As for WA - you can certainly master WA/TMW in such way - that you will make less mistakes and play around resource/proc management best mathematically/logically possible way. As you design it yourself - you need to know the spec inside-out - which in return makes you focus more on the boss fight and helps with the muscle memory.
    The issue with MM, of course, is that there isn't always a "best mathematical/logical way" to proceed at any given moment. If you're the kind of person (as my wife is) that liked Math class more than Literature because there was always one right answer, arrived at through a logical process, then the leeway inherent in MM's resource management (and I include AiS charges there, too) might not be to your liking. That's fine. It doesn't make it "objectively bad design" though. One could easily argue that player choice that can't simply be automated can be a good design. That not having a "right" answer at all times creates player agency- and the variability of making different choices in those moments leading to different decisions to be made later (following a set of guidelines)- can be both interesting and rewarding.

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    I don't even need to track mana/focus - as I conditionally built them.
    And in MM this is a problem. Since the rotation contains a high degree of flexibility in resource management compared to other specs, tracking focus is actually really important. You might not like it, but again- "I can't automate resource management" does not equal "bad design" or "this spec is a mess."

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    Basically the incident I had here was that arcane/steady shot with light up same time(technically making them both relevant - no matter my
    Yup! They can both be relevant at the same time. Because MM is Literature class where sometimes there is more than one right answer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    This is what MM is - no matter the decision you make, you will compensate by wasting. Not in a romantic RPG way. And for me that is stupid.
    This is really only true during Trueshot. Outside of that, you should 100% be able to manage your rotation without wasting.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    Seeking clarification is a perfectly normal part of discourse.



    This is not an objective measure. It might be an important criteria for you, but it's certainly not objective.

    As an example, think about Cata Destro. If you never played it, it was basically the biggest clusterfuck of a rotation that has ever existed (all Lock specs were getting really messy, hence the redesign for MoP, but Destro had it the worst). You had four DoTs, two direct damage spells with CDs, a direct damage spell (tied to a 20-second maintenance buff) that usually had a cast time, but could also be made instant via a proc OR on command (a limited number of times in a fight), an execute (with a CD), and a spammable filler. It was an utter mess; the result not of any sort of internal logic, but of gradual ability bloat leading to enough abilities that simply had better DPCT than the filler, if even only slightly. However, it did have a pretty strict priority system. You'd be able to make a WA setup for it, and probably pretty easily because there was basically always a best answer. But the fact you could manage your buffs, DoTs, and ability CDs in the best mathematically possible way in no way means that Cata Destro was well designed.



    The issue with MM, of course, is that there isn't always a "best mathematical/logical way" to proceed at any given moment. If you're the kind of person (as my wife is) that liked Math class more than Literature because there was always one right answer, arrived at through a logical process, then the leeway inherent in MM's resource management (and I include AiS charges there, too) might not be to your liking. That's fine. It doesn't make it "objectively bad design" though. One could easily argue that player choice that can't simply be automated can be a good design. That not having a "right" answer at all times creates player agency- and the variability of making different choices in those moments leading to different decisions to be made later (following a set of guidelines)- can be both interesting and rewarding.



    And in MM this is a problem. Since the rotation contains a high degree of flexibility in resource management compared to other specs, tracking focus is actually really important. You might not like it, but again- "I can't automate resource management" does not equal "bad design" or "this spec is a mess."



    Yup! They can both be relevant at the same time. Because MM is Literature class where sometimes there is more than one right answer.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is really only true during Trueshot. Outside of that, you should 100% be able to manage your rotation without wasting.
    Decent answers - good points.

    I still disagree with the "player choice" statement. This is also the shortcoming of the game director. This community as the devs needs to stop with this thought process.

    This is how it goes:

    The entire game is static - you have to perform everything in a static movement. Fun fact - in terms of performs, you NEVER had the chance to pick whatever talent you want(outside the standard single/multi target talents).

    DBM tells you where to stand - guides tells tells you how to play - even covenents and racials are ALL based on logical choice to perform the optimal. There is usually one BEST way of killing a boss.

    If you agree - and if we do live in a very static binary world, where performance is measured - then you should indeed not make any choice. And there shouldn't be given any choice. This entire idea about player choice never worked and won't ever work.

    From that perspective - I still don't believe that the MM fits the universe as it plays out.

    As mentioned - this version would fit the game - compared to the other specs are playing out:

    1)30sec CD on aimed shot.
    2)Generate.
    3)Spend.
    4)Trueshot grants free/instant aimed shots.

    From this perspective - I do believe that i'm objective - as I compared MM to other specs/classes. It's not like im going to a steak house and ordering vegan.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-01-07 at 05:56 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    I made it very clear - through WA - you can define if a spec is badly designed or not(objectively - even if you don't like the fantasy of the spec).
    You made it clear, but there's no reason to assume your premise (that unless you can easily automate the spec in WeakAuras, the spec is badly designed) is correct. In fact, that seems like a simplistic and absurd criterion. There's no single, objective measure of whether a spec is well-designed or badly-designed. Your criterion would suggest that a spec in which you just press one damage spell whenever it comes off cooldown is "well designed"--it would be super easy to define the "flow" in WeakAuras. One aura checking ability on or off cooldown.

    I love WeakAuras, but I'd never judge a spec by whether I can quickly and easily have WeakAuras tell me the next button to push in every case without exception. With WeakAuras, I can pretty easily get the information I need to plan several moves in advance in MM, which is what I'm looking for. Aside from the Trueshot window, the spec flows fine and is reasonably enjoyable. That makes it well designed in my view.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    I agree with you.

    Equally - you want to automate exactly whats meaningless and not ever changing(just like the case with MM).

    This is what MM is - no matter the decision you make, you will compensate by wasting. Not in a romantic RPG way. And for me that is stupid.

    This is not a question on when to spend Trueshot - in fact, Trueshot encourages you to waste procs.
    Ah, then perhaps i have misunderstood you.
    It's always annoying to feel like you're forced to waste opportunities, though it might also be part of the decision making.

    I am not familiar with WA, does it allow you to basically make a "switch" statement? Then you could just try to hardcode as many possible scenarios as you could conceive of and take your time deciding which particular order of operations in which particular scenario has your preference, a "least bad" sort of solution, taking utility and other matters into account and accepting there may be unexpected cases.

    It's imperfect over a homogenized solution, but perhaps it will work with the given MM design.
    Last edited by loras; 2022-01-08 at 10:33 AM.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Ah, then perhaps i have misunderstood you.
    It's always annoying to feel like you're forced to waste opportunities, though it might also be part of the decision making.

    I am not familiar with WA, does it allow you to basically make a "switch" statement? Then you could just try to hardcode as many possible scenarios as you could conceive of and take your time deciding which particular order of operations in which particular scenario has your preference, a "least bad" sort of solution, taking utility and other matters into account and accepting there may be unexpected cases.

    It's imperfect over a homogenized solution, but perhaps it will work with the given MM design.
    That would be a good solution.

    Problem is that other classes does not face this dilemma/compensation in such degrading level. And I can't help myself compare MM with the rest - and start being critical.

    I see the MM like a burger/pizza with pasta. It's lacking personality and charm(throu tracking via WA - I get a very clear indication on how the abilities interact to absolute precision).

    It's still fun in PvP thou, as there are mostly no logical choice. But raiding is strictly based on logical choices and the MM got problems at it's core to deliver any sense of gameplay control.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    You made it clear, but there's no reason to assume your premise (that unless you can easily automate the spec in WeakAuras, the spec is badly designed) is correct. In fact, that seems like a simplistic and absurd criterion. There's no single, objective measure of whether a spec is well-designed or badly-designed. Your criterion would suggest that a spec in which you just press one damage spell whenever it comes off cooldown is "well designed"--it would be super easy to define the "flow" in WeakAuras. One aura checking ability on or off cooldown.

    I love WeakAuras, but I'd never judge a spec by whether I can quickly and easily have WeakAuras tell me the next button to push in every case without exception. With WeakAuras, I can pretty easily get the information I need to plan several moves in advance in MM, which is what I'm looking for. Aside from the Trueshot window, the spec flows fine and is reasonably enjoyable. That makes it well designed in my view.
    As you see the majority in the thread is critical about MM. WA is just a tool where I can logically pinpoint the problem. I'm actually being objective rather than subjective - when I say 31 other specs are playing out on a different blueprint. We got 31 different cakes and we have for some reason 1 pizza.

    Don't tell me that Trueshot(according to every sim/guide out there) - when it's dictating you to ignore any proc/focus during - is a well thought design decision. This means - focus and arcane shot procs are obsolete. Meaning - you have a fundamental design problem. This is not the case with any other spec(even for more complex specs).

    In fact - I would say this. If the aimed shot didn't compensate with high damage - less people would like the MM.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-01-08 at 11:00 PM.

  12. #52
    MM + hunter in general has been trash design since Legion revamp. BM is only acceptable because it's simple and mindless.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    As you see the majority in the thread is critical about MM. WA is just a tool where I can logically pinpoint the problem.
    Yet the problem you've "pinpointed" is different than the problem most people seem to have with MM. You're the only one I see complaining about WA's difficulty in focus management, since it can involve more than one right answer at a given point. Most people's problems are either 1) perceived lack of thematic interactions, or 2) the conflict between TS and PS

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    I'm actually being objective rather than subjective - when I say 31 other specs are playing out on a different blueprint. We got 31 different cakes and we have for some reason 1 pizza.
    "Objectively different" does not mean "objectively bad." Maybe MORE specs need the flexibility that MM has? This isn't an objective measure, just your own personal OCD.

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    Don't tell me that Trueshot(according to every sim/guide out there) - when it's dictating you to ignore any proc/focus during - is a well thought design decision. This means - focus and arcane shot procs are obsolete. Meaning - you have a fundamental design problem.
    I don't think I've seen anyone here defending TS from a design perspective. It's an issue. I don't think, however, that the core rotation- and it's flexibility regarding focus management- is a fundamental design problem. This one is all about your personal preferences.

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    This is not the case with any other spec(even for more complex specs).
    MM is definitely not the only spec that has (or has had) rotational conflicts or resource conflicts during specific windows- it's just that your "mathematically/logically best" WA setups can ignore that as long as they have a "best answer" to give you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    The entire game is static - you have to perform everything in a static movement. Fun fact - in terms of performs, you NEVER had the chance to pick whatever talent you want(outside the standard single/multi target talents).

    DBM tells you where to stand - guides tells tells you how to play - even covenents and racials are ALL based on logical choice to perform the optimal. There is usually one BEST way of killing a boss.

    If you agree - and if we do live in a very static binary world, where performance is measured - then you should indeed not make any choice. And there shouldn't be given any choice. This entire idea about player choice never worked and won't ever work.

    From that perspective - I still don't believe that the MM fits the universe as it plays out.
    I don't see how "different" indicates bad, though. MM still has an optimal talent setup, covenant, etc.- it's just that their are spaces in the rotation that don't have an "optimal" decision at that very moment (thought they affect other decisions in the future). And you know, one person's "black sheep" is another's "breath of fresh air." You have a very specific criteria of how to think about specs, but if I looked at different criteria, I'm sure I could find different reasons that another spec could be a "black sheep." Your criteria might work for you, but it isn't objective.

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    As mentioned - this version would fit the game - compared to the other specs are playing out:

    1)30sec CD on aimed shot.
    2)Generate.
    3)Spend.
    4)Trueshot grants free/instant aimed shots.
    I don't see how that fixes your WA problem though. If you have a 30 sec CD on Aimed Shot, don't you have a TON of leeway in how you generate and spend for the next 30 or so seconds?
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    As you see the majority in the thread is critical about MM.
    Even the people critical of it are critical of it for a different reason--that it doesn't have an "identity." You're arguing that the flow is bad because you can't use WA to tell you exactly what to hit every second. As I said, that's a terrible metric for whether a spec is well-designed or even whether it flows well.

    As I also said, which you avoided, a spec where you hit one button whenever it was off cooldown would be a very well-designed spec by your system because you can use WA to define what to do extremely easily. No one else would agree with you that such a spec was well-designed.

    Don't tell me that Trueshot(according to every sim/guide out there) - when it's dictating you to ignore any proc/focus during - is a well thought design decision.
    I literally singled out the Trueshot window as the part of MM lacking proper flow. It really helps to read the posts you're responding to. The Trueshot window, however, is a very small minority of the time you spend doing the rotation. In raiding, at least--in dungeons, it's proportionally a bit more, since any time spent between packs comes out of the non-TS rotation.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    I literally singled out the Trueshot window as the part of MM lacking proper flow. It really helps to read the posts you're responding to. The Trueshot window, however, is a very small minority of the time you spend doing the rotation. In raiding, at least--in dungeons, it's proportionally a bit more, since any time spent between packs comes out of the non-TS rotation.
    I mean... it's not really a problem either. Using a different priority during a cooldown is fine.
    In fact, if it would play the same but "faster" it wouldn't really be a noteworthy cool cooldown in the first place.

  16. #56
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    I never loved MM more than now, I really can't relate to this at all.

  17. #57
    MM is clunky and slow in its current state, some stuff should be baseline (Volley), explosive shot should be moved to survs talent tree for example. Id say WotlK MM was the best from my experience, really enjoyed it back then. MoP most likely was the last expansion i truly enjoyed MM, after that its been meh (i didnt play much of wod and legion)

  18. #58
    Mm should have ammo and mana instead of focus.
    Mana for utility similar to enhance
    Ammo somewhat similar to soul shards for a destro lock, maybe a channel like that thing balance druids had in mop to grant eclipse power.
    I really dont mind if mm is destined be a 7s up 3s down class, but having infinite resources during certain windows ruins fluidity /possibility to have flowing patterns that feel good to perform imo and hinders the overall balance the class is capable of

    You could argue soul shards are just rage by simply making 100 condensed into 6, but in practice there's really no need for abilities other than aimed shot and maybe 1 or two other hard hitting shots to not be infinitely castable, resource free.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaloff View Post
    Id say WotlK MM was the best from my experience, really enjoyed it back then.
    I mean...I had fun too, but given the difference between having two paladins in your raid and not, I can't say that's something I would want to go back to. That and the overall clunkiness of Viper. And Aimed Shot being instant instead of "Aimed" was a bit weird.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    I mean...I had fun too, but given the difference between having two paladins in your raid and not, I can't say that's something I would want to go back to. That and the overall clunkiness of Viper. And Aimed Shot being instant instead of "Aimed" was a bit weird.
    yea it wasnt perfect by any means, i just want the hunter class in general to be fun again, aimed shot on the move would make it way less clunky (not to mention scaling good with haste would be neat too).

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