MM hunter is a mess

[Tyris Flare]

I love kyrian MM in m+. Those big pulls with resonating arrow and double tap are pretty fun and with the right group and dungeon, it’s easy to do north of 10k+ overall dps. I haven’t tried MM in a raid this expansion yet, so I can’t speak on it from that perspective. But for MM it’s one of, if not my favorite dps spec.

Agreed. Really hope they buff the legendary so it is still decent. Having a CD up for every pack is amazing.

[Gigantique]

Best dps spec in the game and best hunters have been since wrath id say.

Wish it had some minor changes like SS being baseline a easy way to use hero without a pet and some other tiny tweaks.

Hard disagree, BfA made me spec into BM for the first time since TBC, then I dropped Hunter altogether as a main in SL because of the mess they made MM into.

The entire AiS/Rapid Fire/Arcane Shot rotation can burn in the deepest pits of hell, and Trueshot is possibly the worst CD I've ever pressed since I installed the game in 2004. Trick Shots is cool enough but the dependancy of having targets clumped up "enough" for MS to hit 3+ can be annoying as hell sometimes.

[HansOlo]

The problem u have found with MM is that it lacks a central mechanic to be center around, ideally something that fits the theme of the spec.

Fire mages are probably the best example of this idea. The spec all about massive fireballs have a central mechanic around stacking crits leading up to pyroblast.
The abilities, talents and eventual rotation is built around this central pillar. Either making it easier, more rewarding, or diversifying in a slightly different direction.

MM doesn't have this. At best it's about not running out of focus, but there isn't a way this mechanic is apparent to the player through the given abilities and talents, at best it's an incidental ability on the side.
Abilities are used not according to any logical flow beyond Aimed shot doing the most damage=use loads of aimed shot.

Hopefully going forward we could see MM gain a more distinct set of abilities centered around a theme. Personally I was a fan of the BfA version we had in Uldir where you buffed Aimed Shot to absurd levels and did massive damage.

Thank you! This is exactly what I was thinking - you just said it much better.

Good example is also destro locks - every similar to the MM hunters aimed shot fantasy. Key difference is - it actually feels good to play destro as it flows beautifully and the bolts feels rewarding - the rotation comes with a defined personality and goal(just like many other SL classes/specs).
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Other than the conflict between Trueshot and Precise Shots, I think it's fine. Might be nice to have a deeper focus pool, too to avoid some of the inevitable capping in and around CDs

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...but Trick Shots IS active during Volley...

Really not sure what you mean here...do you mean Multi-shot instead of Volley? But then I'm still not really sure...because why do we need Trick Shots in single target...?

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I don't do a lot of WA stuff: is the problem the number of conditionals related to focus management? Such as the the way to balance focus depending on the remaining CD of Rapid fire, current focus level, status of Aimed Shot charges, etc?]

Or is it that sometimes there isn't a best answer? I.E if the optimally balancing focus for when Rapid Fire comes off its CD requires one Steady Shot and two Arcane Shots in that time period, there isn't actually a "right way" to do that- it can be done in any order- and you can't communicate that to/through a WA?



This binary you've set up is a non-sequitur.

The classes in SL are very much relatable to each other(all of them are quite well designed) - expect for the MM hunter with the addition to 1 or 2 other specs - this is why I created this thread.

The biggest challenge is when to use arcane shot and when to use steady shot.

You will either cap procs, not generate enough focus or cap any other resource. Problem is that you can't do some focus management as you have procs to count in and the Trueshot iteration.

You CAN do all of the above with other classes - but not with the MM hunter as abilities are interacting with each other in a really off putting way.

My conclusion is that you have zero possibility to eliminate any waste of procs/resources - as this is at is core, either very flexible playstyle or simple bad design. I believe this version of the hunter was a fail compared to many other current classes/specs.

WW monks are also less static in the rotational system, but it flows better and therefor better design.

[ulululu]

Hunter used to be my main for years, trying sometimes to make it back, but it just falls short.

First, they killed the old survival and implemented this melee abomination spec no one asked for. And at the same time, they destroyed MM in Legion.

Basically, just BM feels good to play atm. Really sad state of afairs.

Basically everything is bad except the easiest considerable choice.

[Maell]

The biggest challenge is when to use arcane shot and when to use steady shot.

You will either cap procs, not generate enough focus or cap any other resource. Problem is that you can't do some focus management as you have procs to count in and the Trueshot iteration.

You CAN do all of the above with other classes - but not with the MM hunter as abilities are interacting with each other in a really off putting way.

My conclusion is that you have zero possibility to eliminate any waste of procs/resources - as this is at is core, either very flexible playstyle or simple bad design. I believe this version of the hunter was a fail compared to many other current classes/specs.

WW monks are also less static in the rotational system, but it flows better and therefor better design.

MM is not that hard to grasp. It is just a priority based spec.

It goes along the lines of:
1. Maintain SS buff (if you have that talent)
2. Not capping Aimed Shot
3. Rapid Fire
5. Spend Procs
6. Either regen focus if low or spend focus with AS if you're going to cap focus

If when you're using Trueshot you can't spend procs because it would violate the order then don't spend the procs.

For AoE pretty much you just need to have Trick Shots up when casting Aimed Shot and if can get it to apply to Rapid Fire even better.

Do you need a PhD to figure it out to a decent level? No.

Do you need a bit of time to get the flow of it? Perhaps. Some will get the flow easier than others.

[Gestopft]

The biggest challenge is when to use arcane shot and when to use steady shot.

This is still in the context of writing a WA, right? Is it the fact that sometimes there isn't a "right" answer at a given moment what makes it difficult? Or that the information has too many conditionals to convey within a WA?

You will either cap procs, not generate enough focus or cap any other resource. Problem is that you can't do some focus management as you have procs to count in and the Trueshot iteration.

By "can't do some focus management" are you still in the context of writing a WA? I want to be clear about this. As in- it's hard to make a WA because of the multiple conditionals of Arcane Shot that vary with whether or not you have Precise Shots procs and if Trueshot is active? And the multiple conditionals of current focus level and remaining CD on RF/AiS?

I mean, it is definitely possible to not cap any resources or waste procs (outside of Trueshot). I just spent several minutes on a dummy doing exactly that, and the only time I capped/wasted anything (again, outside Trueshot) was once when I didn't dump enough focus before my Double Tap (etc.) combo (aka user error).

You CAN do all of the above with other classes - but not with the MM hunter as abilities are interacting with each other in a really off putting way.

Other than the conflict between Precise Shots and Trueshot (which most people I think will agree is awkward and bad design), what else are you referring to? What other abilities have off-putting interactions?

either very flexible playstyle or simple bad design.

I'm glad you've recognized that a flexible playstyle isn't inherently bad design. Because I'm sort of getting the sense you're frustrated that the flexibility inherent in focus management doesn't let you

turn off your brain and only light up relevant skills

. Am I wrong about that?

The issue isn't that there isn't a priority, the issue is that the priority doesn't seem to center around a recognizable theme or ability, which in turn means the abilities don't really interract with eachother in a meaningful way either.

A great spec should have natural moments in the rotation where either from luck or skill you have everything fit into place perfectly.

I'm not entirely sure what this supposed to mean; part of the point of the MM rotation is making it fit together based on a number of factors. It's watching the CDs of AiS or RF to make sure you're in position to use them properly. Yes the TS window is a problem, but I don't think the base rotation is. SS and AS don't have a CD, so you have to frequently make choices about how you are going to use them- things don't just "fit into place" it's your job to make them fit in.

MM is in a weird situation where as you get better stats, haste especially, your rotation gets more and more clunky, forcing you to stop using abilities to not lose in DPS, which wouldn't necessarily be a problem, but in the case of MM this doesn't feel like it rises organically from not needing to use a spender, or getting constant procs, but rather from your rotation getting too fast.

This is mostly an issue with Trueshot and/or when stacking CDs, which as I've said, is certainly an issue. I can hardly imagine any amount of haste where the base rotation gets that clunky outside of those specific window.

MM is in shirt really suffering thematically. The base idea of sniper/Legolas archer does have some merit. Using Aimed Shot and Kill Shot does feel good, but it's severely lacking in an actual core mechanic that the spec is built around.
Sometimes it's about focus management, sometimes it's about Aimed Shot, and sometimes it's about keeping up a proc, but rarely if ever is it about building up to something.

It's about ALL of those. A spec doesn't need a single core mechanic to be built around. There are 24 DPS specs; they don't all need a single mechanic or a signature "moment," and they don't all have one. It's fine if you prefer it that way, but that doesn't mean it's badly designed.

[Sondrelk]

MM is not that hard to grasp. It is just a priority based spec.

It goes along the lines of:
1. Maintain SS buff (if you have that talent)
2. Not capping Aimed Shot
3. Rapid Fire
5. Spend Procs
6. Either regen focus if low or spend focus with AS if you're going to cap focus

If when you're using Trueshot you can't spend procs because it would violate the order then don't spend the procs.

For AoE pretty much you just need to have Trick Shots up when casting Aimed Shot and if can get it to apply to Rapid Fire even better.

Do you need a PhD to figure it out to a decent level? No.

Do you need a bit of time to get the flow of it? Perhaps. Some will get the flow easier than others.

The issue isn't that there isn't a priority, the issue is that the priority doesn't seem to center around a recognizable theme or ability, which in turn means the abilities don't really interract with eachother in a meaningful way either.

A great spec should have natural moments in the rotation where either from luck or skill you have everything fit into place perfectly.
Fire mage critting a pyroblast into hot streak, Unholy DK summoning ghoul after ghoul and swarming the opponent, Fury warrior turning into a blender, etc.

MM is in a weird situation where as you get better stats, haste especially, your rotation gets more and more clunky, forcing you to stop using abilities to not lose in DPS, which wouldn't necessarily be a problem, but in the case of MM this doesn't feel like it rises organically from not needing to use a spender, or getting constant procs, but rather from your rotation getting too fast.

MM is in shirt really suffering thematically. The base idea of sniper/Legolas archer does have some merit. Using Aimed Shot and Kill Shot does feel good, but it's severely lacking in an actual core mechanic that the spec is built around.
Sometimes it's about focus management, sometimes it's about Aimed Shot, and sometimes it's about keeping up a proc, but rarely if ever is it about building up to something.

[FossilFree]

I don't get the MM hate, it's the best it has been in a long time. The only real complaint I have is trick shots should proc on a minimum of two targets, not three.

Trueshot works a lot better if you DON'T try to spend precise shot procs during it. There are really only one or two gaps during the entire trueshot duration that you could spend a precise shot proc without clipping into an aimed shot or rapid fire cooldown. And if you have like .5-1 seconds to fill waiting for an aimed shot or rapid fire to come off CD, it's almost always better to just do nothing and gain a bit more focus than waste potential aimed shot focus or cap charges while using a precise shot (don't forget, you have a 1.5 second GCD for every precise shot used, which eats away at aimed shot usage). Also, always make sure to have your steady shot steady focus buff up before using trueshot, and never cast steady shot during the duration unless you just goofed and forgot (but if you forgot, definitely don't skip it).

For me, it typically goes something like this:
Pool some focus (don't cap)
Steady shot x2 (can be used to pool focus)
Trueshot
Aimed shot x2
Rapid fire
Aimed shot
Precise shot (arcane shot)
Aimed shot
Rapid fire
Aimed shot
Small gap, can precise shot but generally better to just wait
Aimed shot
Rapid fire
Aimed shot
Trueshot ends

That's from memory, so maybe not the exact order (plus, lock and load procs will modify it slightly each time), but you can see how there are really only around 1.5 opportunities to use precise shots during trueshot, and only 1 of those times is really worth using.

[aceperson]

hunter in general is a mess. i wish they would just revert the whole class back to wods design (make survivals mastery multistrike since the mastery back then was flat damage). mm is a clunky mess, survival is hot garbage, and bm is boring as heck to play. and i've certainly played survival and mm enough to now a good bit of their issues but they are so bad that until i quit in January, i had played bm almost exclusively for 4 years.

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I don't get the MM hate, it's the best it has been in a long time.

i think you accidently answered your own question. best in a long time does not mean good. we had better design in the past.

[Ealyssa]

I dare you to make your own WA for the rotation

You not being able to do a WA literally means shit about the spec itself tho.

If making the WA is too hard for you, just pick one on wago... Holy shit the self centering "the spec is bad cause I can't make a WA" L O L

[FossilFree]

i think you accidently answered your own question. best in a long time does not mean good. we had better design in the past.

I'll be more specific then. MM is better now than it was in BFA or Legion.

[cparle87]

It's the best is not the same as good.

Try playing any priest spec - and you see how it flows(or any other class for that matter).

It got serious problems dictating the rotational gimmick. I dare you to make your own WA for the rotation, if you insist on:

1)Not capping energy.
2)Not capping aimed shot.
3)Spending precise shots optimally.
4)Spending focus on arcane shots optimally.
5)Rapid Fire and coventant abilties got it's own priority.
6)Put the Trueshot rotation on top of that.

The WA must have a flow to a point, that you can turn off your brain and only light up relevant skills(works every time - IF the spec is designed accordingly meaningful/logical). This is how I know if a spec is designed well and if it flows well(no matter the amount of CDs) - and you should technically not need any WA to perform perfectly. In this case - using WA is not even enough.

You can't even make it work with 4-5 buttons in conditional setting, unless you got higher than average IQ or a math professor. I did actually spend 3 days on it and had to give up in frustration(I might just be really salty here).

It's simple if you don't care about any of this - but that means you press buttons randomly each fight, as you don't have any blueprint design(and you don't want to become the human simcraft like me).

I think this here is your problem. You want MM to be a simple no-brain the WA can automize it for you type spec, and that's just not the kind of spec it is (right now at least).

[deenman]

well,hopefuly in a few decades we will have classic versions of every expansion and everyone can play whatever version of the class they like,i also have a few older classes i would like to play,and some of the older raids were rly fun,cata raids pre ds were awsome,wod raiding was awsome,and i have a few raid tiers i missed out on here and there

[Rucati]

I've been quite enjoying MM lately. Still not as fun as Survival imo, but it's definitely not a mess.

I have absolutely no idea why you'd want a WA to tell you what to do in the first place, and I'd wager an infinite amount of money that there isn't a spec in the game that you can make a WA to tell you your rotation and have it actually be optimal in the majority of situations.

In PvP MM has insane burst and a really fun set of skills you can use. In m+ your AoE on big pulls can be nuts and things are only going to get better with the tier set next patch. I don't raid on my Hunter so can't talk too much about that, but I imagine it's much the same as bosses in m+, which feel fine as MM. Don't really get the complaints tbh.

At least it's not BM where you literally press one button, that's a spec that needs a massive rework.

[Maell]

MM is in shirt really suffering thematically. The base idea of sniper/Legolas archer does have some merit. Using Aimed Shot and Kill Shot does feel good, but it's severely lacking in an actual core mechanic that the spec is built around.
Sometimes it's about focus management, sometimes it's about Aimed Shot, and sometimes it's about keeping up a proc, but rarely if ever is it about building up to something.

MM is all about Aimed Shot. Besides your focus regen abilities (SS and RF) everything else revolves around Aimed Shot.
- ST: You use Aimed Shot to enhance your next spending ability.
- AoE: Your AoE enhances your Aimed Shot so you transform it so it is now an AoE ability, which then enhances your next spending ability.

MM maybe be lacking something, but not a theme.

[Vynx]

Basically everything is bad except the easiest considerable choice.

Basically, you're an idiot to jump to such conclussion

[Swnem]

I am happy with MM hunter. It's my second character.

I can agree trueshot is kind of dumb and i wish focus wasn't a concern while using it, so it could be properly maximized.
It is better with the night fae soulbind that puts a haste buff on the ground. But, you kind of need to stand on it, and sometimes that is not possible.

The problem is, i find Kyrian way more fun to play and unlike other hunters, i actually like rapid fire and the legendary that increases it's damage.
The legendary bow goes really well with kyrian too and the upcoming set bonus looks good.

I really have no complaints, except for the fact i'd like them to let us upgrade the legendary bow so we can still use it on the last patch.

[HansOlo]

This is still in the context of writing a WA, right? Is it the fact that sometimes there isn't a "right" answer at a given moment what makes it difficult? Or that the information has too many conditionals to convey within a WA?



By "can't do some focus management" are you still in the context of writing a WA? I want to be clear about this. As in- it's hard to make a WA because of the multiple conditionals of Arcane Shot that vary with whether or not you have Precise Shots procs and if Trueshot is active? And the multiple conditionals of current focus level and remaining CD on RF/AiS?

I mean, it is definitely possible to not cap any resources or waste procs (outside of Trueshot). I just spent several minutes on a dummy doing exactly that, and the only time I capped/wasted anything (again, outside Trueshot) was once when I didn't dump enough focus before my Double Tap (etc.) combo (aka user error).



Other than the conflict between Precise Shots and Trueshot (which most people I think will agree is awkward and bad design), what else are you referring to? What other abilities have off-putting interactions?



I'm glad you've recognized that a flexible playstyle isn't inherently bad design. Because I'm sort of getting the sense you're frustrated that the flexibility inherent in focus management doesn't let you . Am I wrong about that?





I'm not entirely sure what this supposed to mean; part of the point of the MM rotation is making it fit together based on a number of factors. It's watching the CDs of AiS or RF to make sure you're in position to use them properly. Yes the TS window is a problem, but I don't think the base rotation is. SS and AS don't have a CD, so you have to frequently make choices about how you are going to use them- things don't just "fit into place" it's your job to make them fit in.



This is mostly an issue with Trueshot and/or when stacking CDs, which as I've said, is certainly an issue. I can hardly imagine any amount of haste where the base rotation gets that clunky outside of those specific window.



It's about ALL of those. A spec doesn't need a single core mechanic to be built around. There are 24 DPS specs; they don't all need a single mechanic or a signature "moment," and they don't all have one. It's fine if you prefer it that way, but that doesn't mean it's badly designed.

You can't really discuss with people by throwing them bunch of questions. I came up with my arguments - it's your turn.

I made it very clear - through WA - you can define if a spec is badly designed or not(objectively - even if you don't like the fantasy of the spec). You call the short comings compared to other specs - simple by attempting to play around the mechanics, the best possible way.

If it's NOT possible to play a class, without resource management(which should be a technical challenge for the player as well - outside casting aimed shot) - then I call it bad design.

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I've been quite enjoying MM lately. Still not as fun as Survival imo, but it's definitely not a mess.

I have absolutely no idea why you'd want a WA to tell you what to do in the first place, and I'd wager an infinite amount of money that there isn't a spec in the game that you can make a WA to tell you your rotation and have it actually be optimal in the majority of situations.

In PvP MM has insane burst and a really fun set of skills you can use. In m+ your AoE on big pulls can be nuts and things are only going to get better with the tier set next patch. I don't raid on my Hunter so can't talk too much about that, but I imagine it's much the same as bosses in m+, which feel fine as MM. Don't really get the complaints tbh.

At least it's not BM where you literally press one button, that's a spec that needs a massive rework.

PvP is a different story. It's a good spec for cheap omg moments. As for PvE - I can assure you - there are classes both technically and fantasy wise functioning better(which I hold the standard up to).

As for WA - you can certainly master WA/TMW in such way - that you will make less mistakes and play around resource/proc management best mathematically/logically possible way. As you design it yourself - you need to know the spec inside-out - which in return makes you focus more on the boss fight and helps with the muscle memory.

I tend to have 4 rotational boxes and 4 boxes for CDs - they blur out and will only light up - when they are relevant. I don't even need to track mana/focus - as I conditionally built them.

Basically the incident I had here was that arcane/steady shot with light up same time(technically making them both relevant - no matter my attempts to work around it) - or one of them will light up and cause me to waste resources. The Trueshot interaction makes everything 10x more complex and frankly - makes no sense.

Despite the rotation on paper is very simple, there are no clear and well defined rotational goal. You kinda have to play your own little game inside the game - I really dislike this part.

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I think this here is your problem. You want MM to be a simple no-brain the WA can automize it for you type spec, and that's just not the kind of spec it is (right now at least).

You might be right - I did expect that the MM was build on the same concept of any other 32 specs in game. This gives me merit for calling it the black sheep.

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If I would design the MM similar to the general class design concept of WoW - it would go like this:

1)Make Aimed Shot 20-30sec CD and tax 80% in resource(make it even more rewarding).

2)Spend precise shots procs or spend resources on arcane shot.

3)Generate using steady shot.

4)Trueshot makes the next 2 aimed shots instant and free.

This would make everything flow better.

[Sondrelk]

MM is all about Aimed Shot. Besides your focus regen abilities (SS and RF) everything else revolves around Aimed Shot.
- ST: You use Aimed Shot to enhance your next spending ability.
- AoE: Your AoE enhances your Aimed Shot so you transform it so it is now an AoE ability, which then enhances your next spending ability.

MM maybe be lacking something, but not a theme.

Those two examples are literally all there is to Aimed Shot as a core mechanic.
I would have expected abilities that buff it like in Uldir, or more abilities and talents that interract with Aimed shot in regards to making it cheaper or available more often.

Imagine those stacking blocks toddlers use.
A good spec would take these blocks and stack them to make something, each piece being in some way integral to the overall construct.
MM in this analogy is spreading all those blocks about the playroom. Some pieces are stacked, but not enough to really constitute an actual construction.

MM has most of the pieces it needs for a great spec. The idea of hardcasting Aimed Shot is one that I think does work in theory, but there needs to be more of a structure to how and why you decide what abilities to use.
The perfect spec would be one where a new player can read all the abilities and intuitively grasp how to make it deal the most damage.
For Fire mage you can understand you need as many hot streaks as possible.
For Arms warrior you want as much damage during colossus smash as possible.

For MM this core theme is currently just casting Aimed Shot. You only augment it in AoE, and only in that case by casting a multi-shot in-between each cast.
The precise shots proc is a trap to new players, it's the only impactful visual proc the players see unless they have specific talents, and yet using it during your main cooldown is a net loss in DPS.


What MM needs is someone to go in, ask themselves what works, probably in this case casting Aimed Shot, and then tweak the remaining abilities so they in some way organically lead you into casting that ability.

And of course talents for MM are atrocious, which is probably the singular worst part of the entire spec.
Have someone go in, remove all the abilities that don't make sense for MM like Serpent sting and Murder of Crows. Then make new talents that adhere more closely to the idea that you have one talent to make an ability easier, one to make it harder but more powerful, and one somewhere in-between.

[KrayZEvasion]

It's the best it has been in a long time, no idea what you are talking about.

And the coming set bonus will make it even better.

If all of BFA fits "a long time" then I'd agree.
If we go further back then I'd disagree vehemently. The spec is pretty boring right now. The set bonus will correct it somewhat most likely, but it's really "meh" right now.

The spec has a lot of "boring" sequences atm. Can't say how other classes play, I don't really care, if all classes are like that now it would simply tell me a lot about class design in general.
The cooldown of AiS is simply too long outside of burst windows.

I don't agree with OP either though, right now I can't see the trouble OP has with applying the rotation.
The spec feels slow enough for me to actually be able to think about most stuff before I actually have to, or rather *can*, apply it.
The most difficult thing for me is to time double tap with Rapidfire - and that just means it's the most difficult, not *actually* difficult.