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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by exsanguinate View Post
    Most you can do is outdated content you already did in the past. Cmon
    Have you done everything in the game... yes or no?

    it's that simple. If all you think in WoW is just do past content, get tmogs... I'd wonder why you are even playing the game.

  2. #342
    I've said before, modern wow feels like an MMO simulator. There should just be a website where I press a button and simulate an M15 carry, a raid carry, and dumps loot on me, etc.

    Someone actually made a Diablo 3 simulator in the same vein, but someone needs to do it for WoW:

    https://kadala.fightingdragonswithtaylorswift.com/

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcreid View Post
    I remember one of the dev quoted that Cataclym early dungeons won't be a problem if they went straight from BC to Cata.

    WOTLK made the playerbase weak.
    I think I remember that? And I think I remember thinking it was bullshit when I read it.

    I finished BC thinking WoW wasn't for me, and if Wrath was like BC again I was done. But Wrath wasn't like BC. However, when Cataclysm tried to be BC again, I knew the change in Wrath had only been temporary, and unsubbed for most of 2011.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post

    Basically, after 16 years people know already everything about the game and how it works. Builds, rotations, gear choices are all basically automated. We have tools to evaluate everything and everything is reduced to numbers where the bigger ones just wins.

    It's just natural progression of a game and a playerbase toghether for so long.
    This, unless some of the posters on here realize this, you will never stop complaining, there is too much info, too much freebie gear without requiring "Farm badges for 2 months for 1 item piece" and therefor you are reaching your end result faster, because YOUR TYPE OF PLAYER ASKED FOR THIS CHANGES.

    When things change, its not the 1% "Mythic raidurs" that you hate so much that you think are the problem, but as i have said before, its that 9% that thinks they represent the 90%, and classify themselves as "casual" and playing for over 5-10 years, expecting to get the same feeling of "getting better" out of every single pointless trash content they introduce that are the major complainers about -anything-.

    Instead of complaining, unsub and return, i dont even see how that is a problem, you rather pay x3 duration of subscriptions to farm gear you are supposed to farm the first month or two, okay, you dont have the community, the will or the skill to do that, understandable, you dont need to though to do the rest of the content, therefor, unsub and return when you think there is new stuff for you to do.\

    Now if you are the type of player that thinks, playing for 300 days to farm an irrelevant currency that was farmed for the previous 300 days, and you run the same things 600 times, to get an item that is 1 and 2 tiers behind, why are you playing WoW and not ARPGs again?

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothyjean View Post
    I'd wonder why you are even playing the game.
    Because xmog farming is one of the VERY few (and probably unintended) forms of horizontal progression that exist in the game. But I don't expect the mUh iLVl crowd to even understand the concept.

  6. #346
    I don't play WoW these days, just here to keep up with WoW news because I'm interested in the evolving lore and whatnot from having played it back in the days. And as far as I remember, back in those early days, what else than raiding Molten Core was there at end game? So what the F is the OP talking about?

    The question should be when did WoW convince itself that there is anything but Raiding that's important?

    For example, why is there a big focus on what amounts to hand-held story-driven Campaign quests that present no challenge or level of difficulty that you can do without any interaction with other players - be it competitive or co-operative - other than the fact that some other random player-controlled characters are running around doing the same thing in parallel to you - but their presence aren't felt and their identity is not one you will remember - so it might as well have been a single-player game.

    Why is there a mission table? Why are you able to collect fancy gear by running around doing repeatable solo quests every day? Why can you just sign-up and play through a dungeon or tourist-mode raid with the click of a button, without really interacting with any other player, as if those other players might as well have been bots controlled by AI?

    Raiding was the pinnacle of endgame in WoW since the beginning because this is an MMO. The whole point of the genre is that you should need to interact with a shitload of other players to get ahead and advance. Be it by competing for mob kills with friends and foes alike while leveling, having to put a little effort into interacting with others to achieve that which is hard while leveling, and at the endgame take that concept to the next level by having to band together into communities of players and organize in order to advance in the game - that's what makes it an MMO. All that other stuff is just any multiplayer online game.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This is partially incorrect.

    Aside from that its not about simplicity. Its about less stratification. When they removed tier from the vendor it became clear who was and who wasn't worthy. Compound this with the immediate decision to also tune up the dungeons in cata it was disastrous. Turns out people don't like being told they suck. Explicitly or implicitly.
    You won't hear me defend the Cata business, that was just the devs being stupid.
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  8. #348

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Whats the time limit on being a casual? Because I know the raid leader of a 1night a week mythic guild currently working on sylv. Does this mean mythic raiding can be casual? If so sounds like casuals have the same challenging content as anyone else, especially knowing M+ is not a major time commitment nor is doing a few stray rbgs.
    I’d say what makes someone “casual” is more that they don’t commit to playing at certain times, they just log on when they want for however long they want. So a raider that only hops on for one night a week isn’t casual because they’re committing to playing at a certain time that also has to coincide with the schedules of a bunch of other people (same goes for players with regular M+ groups or PVP groups that have to plan out their gameplay time). Meanwhile a casual might play for 5 hours a day every day but there’s no commitment to playing at certain times with certain people.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-01-09 at 02:56 AM.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    wow has fallen from something like 14 million players to 1-3 million players. let me assure you, that wasnt 12 million hardcore players.
    Considering by MoP WoW had over 100 million accounts created for WoW, its more like it has massively bled players forever, but had a really large amount of new blood for the first 6 years to offset it.

    Eventually that dries up, but the bleeding of players doesn’t really stop.

    The sub graph was basically following a normal product lifecycle graph, with upticks marking expansion launches as the game matures and declines to a low core audience.

    And let’s be real, playing the same video game for multiple years is not the norm for player/video game interaction.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    While I respect and understand that answer from a guy on a forum it was probably not the wisest decision for gbostcrawler to also share it as it was unproductive and is in no way reasonable.

    Quite apart from the fact that telling people to " get good" rarely works or even motivates them to do so and quite apart from the fact that they can also just opt out (which they did) it is really only further dividing people in a game with a dwindling population.
    I am suggesting they opt out... The world is shrinking a lot of wow success is due to when it came out. There are other games that cater to sight searers and trying to keep them when there are far superior products for them then what they can get in wow is just making the game worse trying to chase a fleeting dream.

    League of legends, counter strike, gta and countless other games grow their audience by catering to them. Very,very,very few games these days last that desperately try to cater to an audience that doesn't enjoy them. It is time for wow to grow its core. You can't recapture the "casual" playerbase. It is lightning in a bottle.

  12. #352
    TBC

    Literally TBC

    In Vanilla PVP was just as "big dick" as raiding, infact someone with HWL was considered more elite than someone with Tier 2 gear. HOWEVER, the end of vanilla sparked the EU vs US battle that we still see today, Death and taxes vs Nihilum for world first Kel'thuzad. After that it all went from there, when Blizz removed the BG ladder system and added Arena, pvp was greatly over taken by raiding with the race to world first, it only got bigger from there as Blizzard added no other content to counter the difficulty of raiding.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    You forgot a step:

    4. Game dies because players with higher than room temperature IQ are not able to challenge themselves since the game has effectively been made fully wheelchair accessible.
    Oh man, there is so much stupidity to unpack here that I don’t even know where to start…

    The idea that easily accessible games aren’t appealing to anyone but low IQ people. That higher difficulty WoW content even requires a “higher than room temperature IQ”. That most of WoW’s player base is comprised of people who need to find validation by playing “challenging” video games. That making gear easier to obtain would drive away a significant number of players.

    This is definitely the mentality of someone with very little gaming experience. Hell, just the idea that ANY level of WoW gameplay is some sort of high IQ challenge is laughable.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-01-09 at 03:50 AM.

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I seriously cannot understand this logic. I've raided before, I'm sure most of us have, but I wouldn't say it's the be all end all of a video game. It's just a minigame to do with more players at the end of a character's leveling career. Where and why did this become the main focus of the game? I was watching Asmon's video last night and I think he brought up a good point--which is that the reason so many players think Raiding is the only thing that matters is because when WoW was coming up the content creators that were promoting WoW were all from the high-end/semi-high-end raiding communities. This gave the game a false sense of where the priorities arise from.

    He was convinced in the video that the game tries to focus too much on the Mythic Raider Player and the Average Joe who does nothing but play once a week. While I don't disagree with the Mythic piece, the more I thought about it I could see the Average Joe piece too. But I suspect that was Activision trying to get new players to play--looking at you Mission Table and Level Squish. Those feel like corporate decisions. But the Mythic Raider piece is entirely the Devs fault. The people in leadership on the Dev team focus way too much on the Mythic Crowd. Most players don't even touch heroic raiding, yet why is it always seem like the center of the conversation revolves around Mythic Raiding.

    As I finished it I was watching it with my roomate (old WOW player) and he said when he tried WoW again he noticed the leveling experience was ruined, and when he got to endgame the only thing people talked about was raiding. His conclusion was that it's no wonder the population shrank because it feels like the game thinks it's a good thing if everyone is striving to be a Mythic Raider, and he said how do you expect people to have fun under that system?
    Raiding was always the epitome and end goal of the game. It went from 40m to 25m(h) to 20m mythic.

    It's also been the method to get the best items in the game. Besides arena, rbg and mythic dungeons.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Casual and challenge are not counters to each other. This is a myth. Casual is simply a reflection of time commitment. You can have challenging content that doesn't require significant time commitment. That's casual challenge.
    If you only raid 4 hours a week and get CE each tier I don't think that qualifies as casual. I think instead of being a left wing/right wing thing it's more of an X,Y graph. X being the difficulty of the content and Y being the time investment. You can mythic raid with just a little time spent, you can do 20 keys 10 days a week 7 days a week. You can log on, do your calling, and log off. You can do nothing but pet battles and dailies for 10 hours a day 7 days a week. Those would be the four corners of the chart.

  16. #356
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    I am suggesting they opt out...
    Well you are either incredible short sighted or hate the game either way you should not be listened to.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Considering by MoP WoW had over 100 million accounts created for WoW, its more like it has massively bled players forever, but had a really large amount of new blood for the first 6 years to offset it.

    Eventually that dries up, but the bleeding of players doesn’t really stop.

    The sub graph was basically following a normal product lifecycle graph, with upticks marking expansion launches as the game matures and declines to a low core audience.

    And let’s be real, playing the same video game for multiple years is not the norm for player/video game interaction.
    Nor is scheduling your real life around it for years at a time. The rest of your post is dead-on accurate especially as it relates to customer churn.

    It's an unrealistic premise that a game will grow or stabilize around some max number of players forever and that something is terribly wrong if the normal rules of business apply. It's also unrealistic to imagine that everyone should play a title nearly every day for years. I've never understood why these assumptions are implied in so many posts critical of the game.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-01-09 at 08:26 AM.
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  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Nor is scheduling your real life around it for years at a time. The rest of your post is dead-on accurate especially as it relates to customer churn.

    It's an unrealistic premise that a game will grow or stabilize around some max number of players forever and that something is terribly wrong if the normal rules of business apply. It's also unrealistic to imagine that everyone should play a title nearly every day for years. I've never understood why these assumptions are implied in so many posts critical of the game.
    I think it's mostly about the fact people still like the core gameplay loop, just not the way it's implemented. As a lobby game with m+ it's really working out well, raids are good, the rest is non existant or literally detrimental to the experience.

    I don't know if it's Blizzard direction or playerbase changed, but the game has just become a seasonal arpg where you log in when the new season starts, rush through it, then be done and stop logging in.

    Which isn't bad per se, but leads to a game desigend to revolve around this "come and go" mass of players so nothing really substantial is added. Everything is just living in a three months long bubble.

    To many this is fine. For myself it's just not worth my time. But it's me talking and doesn't represent the current playerbase.

    I just think that old core players are not the target at all anymore. Which is natural i suppose.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by exsanguinate View Post
    Like grinding old content for transmog and mounts?



    Exactly. You either raid, do M+ or PvP, end of endgame.

  20. #360
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    i don't raid since few exps yet i don't see anything in wow should be more important than raiding, because raiding IS the presentation of top pve content

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by exsanguinate View Post
    Like grinding old content for transmog and mounts?



    wow has tons of things to do, this isn't question how many stuff in wow to do (there are a LOT), this is question what is most important
    and most important is hands down mythic raiding
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