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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    Of course I think that is a positive wow's issue isnt so much the end game it is the fact the mid game doesn't really exist. To much welfare loot makes it invalid for most players.
    100%. The gearing path is so short for mid game players. It’s over in a week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    In all honesty I think your first mistake is listening to anything that Asmon says. I get that he's entertaining to watch and all, but he has primarily made his living off of being a WoW outrage youtuber/streamer. That's kind of his shtick.When he's not making a guide for something in WoW he's complaining about how grossly incompetent / wrong Blizzard is about everything. If he sticks with FFXIV (is he still playing FFXIV?) he'll eventually be doing that same thing for that game.

    That said WoW has always had raiding as a focus. The very first Blizzcon had someone ask more or less the same question that you are and Jeff Kaplan talked about how many people ran Onyxia or MC or whatever in a given week. Everything in WoW's PvE has always funneled you into raiding. That's why Blizzard spent the first 3 expansions for WoW trying to figure out different ways to get more people into raiding before settling on several different difficulties with LFR in Cata and then Flex in MoP.

    They tried to create an alternative to raiding with M+ but the min/max focused community ruined that one. Blizzard should have seen that coming but they didn't. Or they just didn't care.

    As far as catering to the average Joe that's the entire reason why WoW got popular in the first place. It offered a MUCH more casual experience than its predecessors. When WoW was in beta and then originally released people who had played other MMOs referred to WoW as World of Casualcraft or Baby's First MMO. Wow has literally always been this way.

    I will agree that the leveling experience in WoW has gone to shit, but that's probably the only thing I agree with him on. He's wrong about the gaming wanting you to strive to be a Mythic raider though. The game is happy if you're doing ANY end game activity. Whether it's LFR, Normal, Heroic, M+, Mythic raiding, whatever. The overwhelmingly vast majority of players have never been and will never be Mythic raiders. So I'm not sure where he gets the idea that the game tries to force that on you.
    The game absolutely forces that on you. If you don’t want to do high end content, the game pummels you with gear and progress so fast that the game is over in a few days.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    100%. The gearing path is so short for mid game players. It’s over in a week.

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    The game absolutely forces that on you. If you don’t want to do high end content, the game pummels you with gear and progress so fast that the game is over in a few days.
    The trick is to somehow convince daily quests they can't have instant raid gear to make mid game viable again.

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    The trick is to somehow convince daily quests they can't have instant raid gear to make mid game viable again.
    I think a better solution is to flatten the gear curve, get rid of so many unnecessary difficulty settings, and just give people ways to continually upgrade gear until it is BiS or at least close.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I think a better solution is to flatten the gear curve, get rid of so many unnecessary difficulty settings, and just give people ways to continually upgrade gear until it is BiS or at least close.
    So...how does a mid game survive in that scenario? You completely invalidate their gearing path.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    So...how does a mid game survive in that scenario? You completely invalidate their gearing path.
    Because you could keep playing and upgrading your gear.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  6. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I think a better solution is to flatten the gear curve, get rid of so many unnecessary difficulty settings, and just give people ways to continually upgrade gear until it is BiS or at least close.
    Commendable as it may be, I simply can't picture the self-styled MMOC "pros" learning to live with their gear being only a few ilvl above that of the unwashed, filthy casual masses (cosmetics aside).

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Commendable as it may be, I simply can't picture the self-styled MMOC "pros" learning to live with their gear being only a few ilvl above that of the unwashed, filthy casual masses (cosmetics aside).
    That's the exact problem isn't it? Blizzard keeps making the game for these lunatics.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    100%. The gearing path is so short for mid game players. It’s over in a week.

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    The game absolutely forces that on you. If you don’t want to do high end content, the game pummels you with gear and progress so fast that the game is over in a few days.
    Stop, lol, you're not outgearing your desired content level in a week unless your desired content level is like LFR or something and if that's the case you're probably not doing the no-lifing required to invalidate even that.

    Are you aware of how small of a percentage of the playerbase the Mythic raiding community is? Particularly when the game isn't at the end of the content cycle? If the game forced that on you, the % would be much higher. The overwhelmingly vast majority of players don't raid Mythic and are generally happy with whatever their end game content is. The average player has zero interest in Mythic raiding and isn't pressured into doing it. You're not even pressured into doing Heroic even though that's generally faceroll. Please, I implore you, before you take some random outrage streamer's view of things actually think about it rationally and understand why it's not a rational take. Your average WoW player doesn't give a singular fuck about Mythic raiding, they might not even know that it exists, let alone be pressured into doing it.

    You or I might invalidate a normal or Heroic raider's progression path very quickly because our goal is higher than that and we have a guild that will help us get there, funnel gear to us, carry us through M+, etc, but for someone who actually sets out with normal or heroic raiding as their goal it's going to take them substantially longer. And even for me, with one of the top guilds in my region at my back, it's going to take significantly longer than "a few days."
    AchaeaKoralin - Are you still out there? | Classic Priest

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Stop, lol, you're not outgearing your desired content level in a week unless your desired content level is like LFR or something and if that's the case you're probably not doing the no-lifing required to invalidate even that.

    Are you aware of how small of a percentage of the playerbase the Mythic raiding community is? Particularly when the game isn't at the end of the content cycle? If the game forced that on you, the % would be much higher. The overwhelmingly vast majority of players don't raid Mythic and are generally happy with whatever their end game content is. The average player has zero interest in Mythic raiding and isn't pressured into doing it. You're not even pressured into doing Heroic even though that's generally faceroll. Please, I implore you, before you take some random outrage streamer's view of things actually think about it rationally and understand why it's not a rational take. Your average WoW player doesn't give a singular fuck about Mythic raiding, they might not even know that it exists, let alone be pressured into doing it.

    You or I might invalidate a normal or Heroic raider's progression path very quickly because our goal is higher than that and we have a guild that will help us get there, funnel gear to us, carry us through M+, etc, but for someone who actually sets out with normal or heroic raiding as their goal it's going to take them substantially longer. And even for me, with one of the top guilds in my region at my back, it's going to take significantly longer than "a few days."
    You severely underestimate how fast you finish gearing if you aren't going to do M+, organized raids, or rated pvp.

    When you run out of progress to make so quickly, you are pressured to move into the next level of content.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You severely underestimate how fast you finish gearing if you aren't going to do M+, organized raids, or rated pvp.

    When you run out of progress to make so quickly, you are pressured to move into the next level of content.
    So now your argument is that if you don't actually do any content outside of the initial leveling content static dungeons you don't have anything to do? Is there a game where that ISN'T the case?

    If you set out to just be an LFR hero you can successfully do that for months without running out of content. Same if you choose to cap out at normal or heroic. You're never actually pressured into doing more difficult content. That's a choice that you make based on what you're comfortable with and whether you're satisfied with the difficulty of your content that you are running. Nothing in this game forces or even encourages you to do anything more than that. Even if you're running Mythic you're eventually going to run out of upgrades to chase. Did you want gear upgrades for pet battles or what?
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  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Stop, lol, you're not outgearing your desired content level in a week unless your desired content level is like LFR or something and if that's the case you're probably not doing the no-lifing required to invalidate even that.
    Dont take him seriously, took him 3 months to do his first M0 and he calls that "Outgearing too fast", the stuff you are supposed to do the first day the expansion launches, he is just trolling at this point and repeats how FFXIV is the best game ever and will now quote me about the irrelevant savage raids and WoW world first raiders that goofed around for 1 month in his shit game.

  12. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Dont take him seriously, took him 3 months to do his first M0 and he calls that "Outgearing too fast", the stuff you are supposed to do the first day the expansion launches, he is just trolling at this point and repeats how FFXIV is the best game ever and will now quote me about the irrelevant savage raids and WoW world first raiders that goofed around for 1 month in his shit game.
    I mean, strawmen are fun and all, but they don't really make your point any stronger.

  13. #513
    =RoKPaNda;53547031]So now your argument is that if you don't actually do any content outside of the initial leveling content static dungeons you don't have anything to do? Is there a game where that ISN'T the case?
    FF14, Guild Wars 2, SWTOR, Destiny 2.... I mean I can keep going...

    If you set out to just be an LFR hero you can successfully do that for months without running out of content. Same if you choose to cap out at normal or heroic. You're never actually pressured into doing more difficult content. That's a choice that you make based on what you're comfortable with and whether you're satisfied with the difficulty of your content that you are running. Nothing in this game forces or even encourages you to do anything more than that. Even if you're running Mythic you're eventually going to run out of upgrades to chase. Did you want gear upgrades for pet battles or what?
    LFR drops 213. That's a whopping 3 ilvls higher than regular mythic dungeons. Once you have mythic dungeon gear, which takes very little time especially if you supplement with a world boss piece and a handful of other easy things to grab quickly like a legendary, world quests are going to drop higher gear than LFR.

    Again, you wildly underestimate how fast the gearing is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Dont take him seriously, took him 3 months to do his first M0 and he calls that "Outgearing too fast", the stuff you are supposed to do the first day the expansion launches, he is just trolling at this point and repeats how FFXIV is the best game ever and will now quote me about the irrelevant savage raids and WoW world first raiders that goofed around for 1 month in his shit game.
    For the eightieth time, you think my argument is that gearing is too fast because I geared too slow. It is nonsensical on its face.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I mean, strawmen are fun and all, but they don't really make your point any stronger.
    Well, it is his thing the last 2 months i respond to anything, he cant accept his experience isnt the correct one no matter how much he tries to make it, that isnt my problem.

    Does the game have problems ? Yes it does, but only if you cant accept its not what it is and you are trying to play Skyrim in it.

    Has the game changed into a seasonal game if you dont push content? Yes it has.

    How is that bad exactly? How is it better to repeat the same 3 dungeons for 400 days to farm irrelevant gear thats 2 patches behind, better than the new system, especially if you call yourself "Casual" and you want to pretend you have a life, to feel superior for not having pixels, and calling others names for having pixels, like it even fucking matters who has the pixels.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Because you could keep playing and upgrading your gear.
    See that won't ever happen though people will just farm then get caught in difficulty above their skill level.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    See that won't ever happen though people will just farm then get caught in difficulty above their skill level.
    Not if they can do the content they are comfortable with and continue making progress.

    This is also known as "How damn near every other similar game works".
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  17. #517
    A big unmentioned part of this is that they need to come up with better nerfing mechanisms over time. Some of these conversation feel like 2006 where your guild would reclear something and see a notable dps increase because of the gear they got in that run. in 2022, anyone outside of Hall of Fame guilds who puts in a reasonable amount of effort is effectively capped or near capped on gear long before they even get to the progression boss.

    Like think about Sludgefist, who was basically the Patchwerk of Nathria. For HoF guilds, reclears and stuff really mattered just like in the old days, because they were on him in the first month. By the time most guilds who killed him did kill him, gear wasn't even a factor. They had probably already been extending their lockout for weeks if not months at that point.

    imo that's a big issue that never really comes up here. People talk all the time about mythic raiders and gear yet never mention that most mid-tier + guilds end up extending non-stop for literally months, never even rekilling many of the bosses because it's not worth the time. No one is playing for "gear" for a huge portion of the patch.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  18. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    See that won't ever happen though people will just farm then get caught in difficulty above their skill level.
    That's OK. It would be their skill, not their gear which is cockblocking their progression - but at least they would have a carrot to chase. Something akin to Korthia, but (hopefully) less grindy and less monotonous.

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    That's OK. It would be their skill, not their gear which is cockblocking their progression - but at least they would have a carrot to chase. Something akin to Korthia, but (hopefully) less grindy and less monotonous.
    I can't see how that is better then having to the two go hand in hand rather then annoying everyone else in the group as they flounder and fail.

  20. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    I can't see how that is better then having to the two go hand in hand rather then annoying everyone else in the group as they flounder and fail.
    One of those venues gives the less skilled players something to strive for, the other doesn't. Guess what happens in the latter case.

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