Poll: Can all of Azeroth's elves (especially high and blood elves) use some kind of magic?

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  1. #1

    Question Can all of Azeroth's elves (especially high and blood elves) use some kind of magic?

    I remember reading the RPG that all high elves can use magic from a very early age...is that the reality in today's Warcraft lore, or has that been changed? For example, in some other fantasy franchises, all elves, no matter what their rank, has magic as their birthright, as part of their ancient heritage, and can tap into that intrinsic power to varying extents. I know the elves are all suffused by either the Well of Eternity or the Sunwell's energies...but does that give them any innate magical ability of their own from the day they enter this world?

    For example, Vereesa was able to communicate with the trees in one of her first novels, and Lor'themar Theron is able to use abilities such as "Arcane Shock", "Mana Burn" and "Mass Charm", despite being a warrior and a ranger.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lor...eron#Abilities
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  2. #2
    Yes. That is why they all have magic-based racial abilities.

    All Ren'dorei, whether they are warrior, hunter, or mage, can use Void magic to teleport through reality (which by the way would be the most powerful racial ability lorewise, the ability to teleport through reality...).

    All Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei use arcane magic against their enemies, even if they are warriors.

    All Kaldorei are able to use the shadows to become invisible.

  3. #3
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Elves in general can do some elementary magic tricks, but they are nothing compared to the true masters of magic of WoW, i.e. humans. The millennia-old Nightborne First Arcanist staring in awe at Elsa Proudmoore during SoO 2.0 was simply jarring.

  4. #4
    There's probably someone somewhere roleplaying an elf squib

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Elves in general can do some elementary magic tricks, but they are nothing compared to the true masters of magic of WoW, i.e. humans. The millennia-old Nightborne First Arcanist staring in awe at Elsa Proudmoore during SoO 2.0 was simply jarring.
    You mean the First Arcanist who hadn't seen a new spell in 10,000 years cause her people were stagnating inside a bubble? The one who was flat out mocked by Azshara? "First Arcanist, indeed?" Thalyssra being shocked that new spells have been invented and powerful new mages have come to be after 10,000 years of isolation isn't very shocking. Add to it we know that pretty much every race that is descended from a titanforged or influenced in its evolution by the titans have a leg up in most magical areas. Part of why the faces of Azeroth are so powerful even on a cosmic scale. Literally every playable race is connected to the titans in some way.

  6. #6
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You mean the First Arcanist who hadn't seen a new spell in 10,000 years cause her people were stagnating inside a bubble? The one who was flat out mocked by Azshara? "First Arcanist, indeed?" Thalyssra being shocked that new spells have been invented and powerful new mages have come to be after 10,000 years of isolation isn't very shocking. Add to it we know that pretty much every race that is descended from a titanforged or influenced in its evolution by the titans have a leg up in most magical areas. Part of why the faces of Azeroth are so powerful even on a cosmic scale. Literally every playable race is connected to the titans in some way.
    So you are implying that Thaly was unable to learn anything of worth during her >10k years lifetime, but Elsa could master everything there is to learn in ~40, surpassing even the centuries-old blood elves or the millennia-old draenei? Sounds totally logical, after all it isn't as if Humans don't have any other renowned spellcasters

  7. #7
    Stood in the Fire Chromeshellking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    So you are implying that Thaly was unable to learn anything of worth during her >10k years lifetime, but Elsa could master everything there is to learn in ~40, surpassing even the centuries-old blood elves or the millennia-old draenei? Sounds totally logical, after all it isn't as if Humans don't have any other renowned spellcasters
    Its not perse unable but when all you have to bounce ideas off of are your own people and you dont get any other imput it would tend to have a gap that come up without outside interaction.

    Humans to visit another universe according to a shall I say Quirky...temperament for an Omnipotent being described humanity as having a compulsion to keep learning and growing and seeking out answers They may be short lived but that is why they tend to master and surpass beings of much greater powers. Heck they also had a moment where that race even did have a civil war over the same thing, they stopped talking to each other after a while.

    I think part of the problem with living that long is the loss of perspective. When you lived for 5000 years and you see a human child showing talent for magic and you think to yourself do you A: be like ok that is promising. B: Oh that adorable...I mastered that feat when was (insert age here) Or C: begin a mentorship and help guide that youth. Chances are you are going with B.

    Now that isnt to say that First Arcanist should be unable to understand that being out of a loop for 10k years for new spells or etc.
    Last edited by Chromeshellking; 2022-01-06 at 05:33 AM. Reason: Grammar
    Fate is one you forge with your own two hands.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    So you are implying that Thaly was unable to learn anything of worth during her >10k years lifetime, but Elsa could master everything there is to learn in ~40, surpassing even the centuries-old blood elves or the millennia-old draenei? Sounds totally logical, after all it isn't as if Humans don't have any other renowned spellcasters
    Young races learn faster and accomplish more in their short lifetime, while long living races tend to be described as stagnating with their civilization on the decline.

    Stop getting butthurt over it, that's like the basics of fantasy.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Young races learn faster and accomplish more in their short lifetime, while long living races tend to be described as stagnating with their civilization on the decline.

    Stop getting butthurt over it, that's like the basics of fantasy.
    Didn't Aegwynn also buff Jaina with her life force? and Aegwynn was op

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    So you are implying that Thaly was unable to learn anything of worth during her >10k years lifetime, but Elsa could master everything there is to learn in ~40, surpassing even the centuries-old blood elves or the millennia-old draenei? Sounds totally logical, after all it isn't as if Humans don't have any other renowned spellcasters
    Considering your past bias and the fact that you're clearly very passionate about this since you feel the need to denigrate the fictional characters with memes I'm going to give one more serious try to explain the point.

    I'm saying there wasn't a drive to learn and develop new spells and magic during that time since there was no drive for it. Necessity is the mother of invention after all. There were also no foreigners, no trade, no new ideas coming in. Thalyssra is one of the best at nightborne magic. That's it. That is her area of expertise. It's unreasonable to expect her to be knowledgeable about magics she's never seen before. The Gorian Empire were some of the best arcane and elemental users we've seen, and they were caught totally flatfooted by both fel and the Iron Horde's tech. They were outside context problems.

    Also it's entirely disingenuous and simply degrades your argument to hyperbolize that Jaina knows "everything". She's one of the strongest frost mages with a good basis in other arcane areas like conjuration and teleportation. Also there's a nice whataboutism bringing up the blood elves or draenei, when we're not talking about them. We're talking about how reasonable it is for Jaina, a powerful and flexible mage, to be able to perplex Thalyssra, a shut in with practically no outside world experience, with a kind of magic she's never seen before.

    Also i'm not even sure what point you're trying to make with the whole "it's not as if humans don't have any other casters." Seems like word salad to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chromeshellking View Post
    Its not perse unable but when all you have to bounce ideas off of are your own people and you dont get any other imput it would tend to have a gap that come up without outside interaction.

    Humans to visit another universe according to a shall I say Quirky...temperament for an Omnipotent being described humanity as having a compulsion to keep learning and growing and seeking out answers They may be short lived but that is why they tend to master and surpass beings of much greater powers. Heck they also had a moment where that race even did have a civil war over the same thing, they stopped talking to each other after a while.

    I think part of the problem with living that long is the loss of perspective. When you lived for 5000 years and you see a human child showing talent for magic and you think to yourself do you A: be like ok that is promising. B: Oh that adorable...I mastered that feat when was (insert age here) Or C: begin a mentorship and help guide that youth. Chances are you are going with B.

    Now that isnt to say that First Arcanist should be unable to understand that being out of a loop for 10k years for new spells or etc.
    Thank you. You may have put more point better than I did.

  11. #11
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    that's like the basics of fantasy.
    Nah, not really. Suramar or Silvermoon aren't "in decline", not any more than Stormwind/Kul Tiras/Dalaran, at any rate. But sure, muh tradutionul fantusiez

    @cparle87 nice headcanon m8, but in the end it doesn't explain why Humans have towering wizards like Aegwynn, Medivh, Rhonin, Khadgar, or Jaina Suemoore, while everyone else gets to look in awe at them. And that includes the draenei, who according to the wiki:

    They were extremely intelligent and had a natural affinity for magic in all of its forms. Using their gifts, they developed a vast and wondrous society.
    And the Nightborne not having any necessity of magic or inventions? How the @#%& were they supposed to fight the Legion otherwise? WTF was Oculeth doing in a WORKSHOP then? No, he wasn't inventing anything, no research whatsoever.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Elves in general can do some elementary magic tricks, but they are nothing compared to the true masters of magic of WoW, i.e. humans. The millennia-old Nightborne First Arcanist staring in awe at Elsa Proudmoore during SoO 2.0 was simply jarring.
    Don't forget when First Arcanist of Suramar wet her panties when she encountered Elsa Proudmoore in Stormwind during Stockade Jail Break at the start of Fourth War.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Nah, not really. Suramar or Silvermoon aren't "in decline", not any more than Stormwind/Kul Tiras/Dalaran, at any rate. But sure, muh tradutionul fantusiez

    @cparle87 nice headcanon m8, but in the end it doesn't explain why Humans have towering wizards like Aegwynn, Medivh, Rhonin, Khadgar, or Jaina Suemoore, while everyone else gets to look in awe at them. And that includes the draenei, who according to the wiki:



    And the Nightborne not having any necessity of magic or inventions? How the @#%& were they supposed to fight the Legion otherwise? WTF was Oculeth doing in a WORKSHOP then? No, he wasn't inventing anything, no research whatsoever.
    Aegwynn and Medivh don't count, cause they didn't get their powers by virtue of their own ability. Those two are literally the powers of dozens of magics lent to one, who decided to keep it and pass them down to her child.

    As for the others, are you honestly trying to argue that because humans have more well known mages in the lore that "everyone else is looking at them in awe"? And you lash out at me for allegedly using headcanon. You're using the old logical fallacy that an absence of evidence is evidence of absence. In this case "we don't know any great draenei mages therefore there aren't any."

    I'm talking about after they were in the bubble, not when they were resisting the Legion. They had no huge crises, no wars. As soon as they found a way to turn the Nightwell into an edible power source they were golden. Whereas the outside world has had 10,000 years of conflict, especially in the most recent years. Conflicts lead to innovations. Cultures mix, share things, steal things. Do you think it was draenei shaman who invented the hex spell, for instance?

    I'm not knocking on Thalyssra. She's one of the best nightborne mages. But that's the limit of her expertise. You don't call in a podiatrist to do surgery on eyes. The world at large, and Jaina in this case, have magics Thalyssra has never heard of cause her people have been isolated for so long. Azshara, too, mocked Thalyssra for not seeing the magical trap she and we players were walking into until we were in it.

    In other words, you're comparing a shut-in with lots of theoretical knowledge in a few very limited areas, versus a combat veteran with practical knowledge and practice.

    As for Oculeth, I'm sure researching a better, safer transport network would totally help you break down ice walls and fight against battle mages.

    One last little piece of advice, and I might have tipped on this earlier. Using infantile nicknames for characters you don't like doesn't help your argument. You just show that you don't care about anything but caricatures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Don't forget when First Arcanist of Suramar wet her panties when she encountered Elsa Proudmoore in Stormwind during Stockade Jail Break at the start of Fourth War.
    Yes. An academic shut in being shocked at seeing a large practice of magic from a war mage in a school she's not familiar with. So shocking.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    So you are implying that Thaly was unable to learn anything of worth during her >10k years lifetime, but Elsa could master everything there is to learn in ~40, surpassing even the centuries-old blood elves or the millennia-old draenei? Sounds totally logical, after all it isn't as if Humans don't have any other renowned spellcasters
    People spend their entire lifetimes learning a single scientific principle 1000 years ago, nowadays you can open a book or a web page and learn everything you need about it in a tiny fraction of the time. Same concept, she has the uncanny ability to read books that were published after Suramar's islation. It's really not that unbelievable at all if you just stow your salt for a moment and use an objective eye.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  15. #15
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    @cparle87 did you play BfA and read the tie-in book to SL? Jaina is so comically OP that I cannot fathom why can anyone get so angry at a meme. You should get angry to the writers instead for how they've written her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    People spend their entire lifetimes learning a single scientific principle 1000 years ago, nowadays you can open a book or a web page and learn everything you need about it in a tiny fraction of the time. Same concept, she has the uncanny ability to read books that were published after Suramar's islation. It's really not that unbelievable at all if you just stow your salt for a moment and use an objective eye.
    Oh yeah, the awesome industrial and scientific revolution in Dalar... Oh wait.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    @cparle87 did you play BfA and read the tie-in book to SL? Jaina is so comically OP that I cannot fathom why can anyone get so angry at a meme. You should get angry to the writers instead for how they've written her.

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    Oh yeah, the awesome industrial and scientific revolution in Dalar... Oh wait.
    I have been subbed since the AQ war effort patch and played through all the xpacs and read all the books. Jaina is one of the strongest mages in Azeroth. Is this a bad thing? No. There's a saying "tropes are tools" and "tropes are not bad." Might want to look them up. Also might want to consider that things you dislike aren't necessarily bad. At this point you're coming across as the "stop liking what I don't like" guy.

    You seem angry that a battle mage who has been fighting in wars for going on 20 years now, has gotten numerous power ups and powerful artifacts can stump an academic mage by throwing magics the latter has never seen before.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...ersusPerformer comes to mind.
    Last edited by cparle87; 2022-01-06 at 09:05 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I have been subbed since the AQ war effort patch and played through all the xpacs and read all the books. Jaina is one of the strongest mages in Azeroth. Is this a bad thing? No. There's a saying "tropes are tools" and "tropes are not bad." Might want to look them up. Also might want to consider that things you dislike aren't necessarily bad. At this point you're coming across as the "stop liking what I don't like" guy.

    You seem angry that a battle mage who has been fighting in wars for going on 20 years now, has gotten numerous power ups and powerful artifacts can stump an academic mage by throwing magics the latter has never seen before.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...ersusPerformer comes to mind.
    I know this is your gig, so I'm wasting my time, but there's no excusing Jaina's nakedly absurd power level. The way Suramar's aristocracy resolved its problems were duels to the death, which are practiced both for major reasons and for just minor breaches of decorum. Keeping yourself sharp would be a cultural necessity. They've had ten thousand years to master their craft, so even if they spent only a hundred years at it they'd still have vastly more experience than Jaina. There was every incentive to stay up to date in terms of combat skills and even if they didn't, in terms of magical proximity, Thalyssra and every Nightborne was linked to a Titan-relic empowered pool of mana to the point of subsisting on it for ten thousand years. They literally drank and ate mana.

    This is notwithstanding that Jaina's own combat record isn't some constant history of war, she was sedentary for the entire Vanilla to Mists stretch short of Wrathgate.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-01-06 at 09:20 AM.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    I remember reading the RPG that all high elves can use magic from a very early age...is that the reality in today's Warcraft lore, or has that been changed? For example, in some other fantasy franchises, all elves, no matter what their rank, has magic as their birthright, as part of their ancient heritage, and can tap into that intrinsic power to varying extents. I know the elves are all suffused by either the Well of Eternity or the Sunwell's energies...but does that give them any innate magical ability of their own from the day they enter this world?

    For example, Vereesa was able to communicate with the trees in one of her first novels, and Lor'themar Theron is able to use abilities such as "Arcane Shock", "Mana Burn" and "Mass Charm", despite being a warrior and a ranger.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lor...eron#Abilities
    We know in the pre-sundering era, all night elves learnt magic as they did to walk, read and write - if you read WotA trilogy, this is why it is shown in Suramar. Malfurion already knew magic long before he met Cenarius, and a lot of the things he did, including unravelling the well wasn't "nature magic"... with elves there is a lot of magic - the degree of magic mastery and knowledge that qualifies you to be a "mage" or "druid" etc is very high, so you can be sure most of them know a few tricks, even if other classes, and even if they can hardly do anything with it.

    Night elves and Thalassian elves are also filled with magical power. The Well of Eternity suffuses the Night elves, and now we know it is the arcane blood of the titan, we know that is the real connection they have - but WotA also tells us the link they have to the Well, it was hinting at their creation by it, which we come to learn of later actually comes from being dark trolls modified by arcane magic transforming their essence.


    I mention Night elves first because, as all elves come from night elves, this is where the magical talent comes from. However a source aids that. Until cataclysm at least, Thalassians sneered at Darnassian night elves whom their people were exiled (not all night elves in existence), for having so much power in the Well and within them but refusing to do anything great (like rebuilding the elves) with it, instead allowing themselves to be so scared of the legion or wrapped up in guilt, that even when safe usage could be assured, they weren't willing to try back then.

    All Thalassians are suffused with the Sunwell, whether they have no magical talent or not. Now we do not have confirmation that all Thalassians can have magical ability like night elves do, we know that there was a devolution of sorts in the exile, a reduction of capacity, which is why their greater achievements in 7.000 years, despite the reduced physical and magical natural capacity gives the Thalassians pride. In simple terms, they had less, but did more with it than their kaldorei counterparts hiding in isolation either selfish and uncaring enough to occupied with their desires for magic (i.e. Shen'dralar), or full of guilt and excessive superstition over the Legion, they wouldn't grasp power beneath them that could let them do their job and better themselves a lot more (Darnassians)

    You can tell who I agree with


    Magic is the Birth right/Legacy of the Elves
    This much is clear in lore, Farodin repeats this, explaining to a new player in the Suramar quests. It's wrong to think because the Darnassians banned mages and their great spellworks for 10,000 years that they have no magical connection or legacy. As far as I understand it, that group still have all the raw talent and power, they were simply out of practice. This makes sense to me, given how much arcane energy they are surrounded with, and they are basically connected to Azeroth's blood.

    None are more proud of the arcane heritage than the Highborne. Because of the legion, the sentiment of pride is not shared universally with all elves, night elves having a more "wise" approach, recognising that their magical affinity is both a virtue and a vice.

    Farodin says "magic made the elves, lifted them out of darkness, but without balance threatens to destroy them." .. he uses the term magic has long since been the "vice" of the elves. Darnassian (not Shen'dralar) night elves are acutely aware of hubris.

    Yet Thalassians and Shen'dralar are extremely proud of magic, as i said, the Highborne are the most proud of the arcane legacy. While from the Legion invasion onwards the destruction the arcane could bring was heart breaking to a lot of elves, still, it cannot be forgotten it's good use ushered an unparalleled age of great prosperity, development for both the land and the people that used it. The Highborne cling to this most of all, perhaps because their power was based mainly on mastery of this, or because their love is unwavering and far less tempered by caution than many of their counterparts from other disciplines.

    As children of the Highborne the Thalassians carry on the pedigree and point of view as a whole in society. It's clear not all are so attached, as high elves who refused to become sin'dorei were willing to let go of it instead of use fel or drain mana out of other creatures. The lore tells us that the blood elves were unable to let go of the arcane despite the trouble and potential danger brought by the dispersion of the Sunwell. This is why the Naaru decided to sacrifice it self as it was the only way to save them.

    I can theorise that whatever Cenarius and the druids did to Darth'remar's group of Highborne on the exile somehow severed them from the natural connection to Azeroth's lifeblood... while elven still and still predisposed to magic genetically, that connection was lost, the power, as well as the connection to Nordrassil... this is why they suffered so much on the journey, and probably the reason for spite against the Darnassian, because it left them very vulnerable (although a tactician might say it also prevented any reason or possibility of them wanting to return to cease something they were no longer connected too naturally - it really was a severring on more than societal or community level.

    When the Sunwell is ignited, although a lesser well, only made from one vial, the entirety of the Thalassians are suffused just by this, without a natural connection or flow of Azeroth's blood within them, when the Sunwell is dispersed, it would affect them more.

    I notice that the high elves do not appear as addicted as the night elves were after the sundering, nor as addicted as the Nightborne were either, so there is a difference. I believe the High elves were far more responsible and careful, and did things correctly. Blood elves do not believe that caution as necessary now, in hindsight, and believe that they would have stood a better chance if they had not been so stiff neck hung up on "doing what's right" being cautions etc, and it's a part of themselves they either hate or let go. The logical conclusion to draw from this is that because they are changed from night elves, their capacity for magic is diminished , but as the same people their appetite wasn't. Maybe as night elves, the way they were suffused with the Sunwell should not have caused any addiction at all (seen by Kaldorei, especially Darnassians, suffused by the well of eternity have no addiction and yet Thalassians, even those who have no magical talent and thus don't use it for spells, were affected with the loss of Sunwell. This is a theory I have heard here before and is worth mentioning for speculative purposes.

    You can argue about the merits of this, but once WC3 happened, the sort of caution the high elves needed with magic was also gone, just like the Darnassians requirement to ban and prevent it's use was.. so blood elves may have just been embracing a natural and necessary development, however this is fuelled by the anger, wounded pride, and determination to never be at the mercy of an invading power or ever be so vulnerable. And magic is what these elves do best.

    Current Sources of Magic
    Magic is released in Azeroth's atmosphere by the Night elves, when Malfurion imploded the Well, both saving the world from the Legion's certain destruction but also breaking it. With so much magic in the air, other races are able to powerfully channel magic without a source if they can learn/be taught or have a talent for it. Proven by when the Thalassians taught humans.

    However all elven groups (apart from the Nightborne) do have a magical well they can have extra power from. Only the Thalassians use theirs currently. Although they now have no reason to hoard or deny it's u sage, the Darnassians have yet to use their own well. AS far as I know, the change of the Nightwell did not stop or sever the natural connection the Nightborne have to Azeroth's blood as night elves.. it just changed them a little further, but we don't know how much the Arcan'dor that restores and heals them, is changing them back. BUt it doesn't matter, they are still connected (their eyes still glow silver), however they currently have no magical well.

    Differences in views of Magic

    Night Elves - most Darnassians (not all Darnassians, and not all night elves), have severed their dependence (not connection) on magic due to the events of the War of the ancients, magic is viewed on average as dangerous, although this stigma should be pretty much severely lessened after WC3 - still the impression I get is that unless you have a talent for it, most night elves won't bother with the arcane, not wow'd by it, lived ages without it's benefits, don't view them as needed, like they did
    Shen'dralar and Highborne - magic is the hope to recover and prosper the elves again, the night elves must now move forward again, the long vigil is ended, isolation won't work, and magic is a part of the elves that is as necessary as the others. It may have not been necessary to live with during the long vigil, but that was because it was far more important to prevent the legion's return than it was to better themselves.

    All night elves may naturally love magic, but a lot more of the Darnassians are wary of it now compared to how they were in the pre-sundering era.


    High elves: High elves love and use magic, but are far more cautious of it, this has been the tradition for 7,000 years, as a group that hated and fought the Legion and also agreed to ban magic in the years after the sundering. 3,000 years later they were convinced it was necessary and better to rebuild, and strengthen the elves with magic, and restore what was destroyed. The others disagreed and it lead to events that resulted in the exile.

    However in their new kingdom where all magic would be free to be practised - free as in no ban, they were very cautious, aware of the legion threat and also aware of addiction. They took magic very seriously and were very disciplined and restrictive in their use. High elves are surprised how talented humans are and pick up things quickly as well as innovate - but the reason for this is because they'd been so use to piling on restrictions and being extra sure, knowing the consequences of mis-steps. It is my opinion that cultural differences is why the humans didn't' respect their elven teachers' admonishment and restriction on magical use, and it was humans curiosity and exploration, not having the same baggage is why they appeared perhaps better than they seemed to a generation of elves that were so use to being super careful, and is also how the legion were able to start coming back.


    Blood Elves & Void Elves: These two groups now, formed ina post Legion world, are far more aggressive and less restrictive with magic. I get the image of a dance with danger they are willing to do, in order to gain the power (to destroy their enemies and/or defend their world), it's a mindset change for Thalassians. When blood elves made this change, it was very offensive and reckless to most high elves. but much as passed since. By the time void elves take this a step further, it is known now that even dangerous and corruptive powers like fel, domination do not necessarily make you evil, as heroes amongst death knights and in particular demon hunters have proved, where once before high elves and night elves condemned their kin who played with fel as evil even when they were not. This they all know now.

    It is why high elves are far more accepting of void elves than they were initially of blood elves. It opens room for healing, however sadly, there have been sins committed since between the two groups and to each other that would greatly complicate any healing.

    Nightborne: Seem the most pragmatic about magic, despite nearly been destroyed by the withering process, you would think that they may adopt an anti-magic stance or go on vows of abstinence. Well, some of them might, which would be an interesting shal'dorei development. Thalssyra did drain the Nightwell, and seems unopposed for it.. although it is possible some hate her and disagree with her for it, it is quite possible others still would go much further than that, seeing the damage.

    Yet, unlike their Northern night elven kin, their magical damage actually had a cure and solution made available . Unlike the night elves of the north, magical usage in a post Legion world held no such dangers as it did after the Sundering, when all elves agreed the Legion could not be allowed to return, and the usage of magic was the only way, therefore they must give it up.

    This difference completely changes how the Shal'dorei might react. It also helps that they don't lose all the cities and had to live in the sticks to do good on their vigil. Yet still, the Shal'dorei, do view magic as something you have to hold utter respect for. I can imagine this is the view the first night elves had. They successfully were able to learn to use the arcane correctly, their intelligence and wisdom allowing them to handle and master something so well, without disaster - this is an incredible effort, as no one else amongst the races is able to do that, and we know how volatile the arcane can be.

    It stands to reason all of them, were very good and handling magic well and safely, and it explains how and why Azshara would be complacent and arrogant over any "perceived" other damagers. Because they knew magic well and had done it safely. Likely from the first priests that studied it to get close to Elune all the way to a fully fledged civilizations that utilised it so effectively.

    Addiction must have been a minor concern to the arrogant Queen, and something she felt wouldn't affect her or was for lesser minds. Yet Occuleth is full of warning on treating magic with respect, it is seen in his encounter with his former student Thwain and more later, and this is also reflected in Thalsysra's tone. It hasn't stopped them from using magic at all.



    Magic in World of Warcraft.

    Arcane magic is very beneficially, it has many benefits, it is why the Highborne don't give it up, and the night elves still use it's power, even those who don't use it for spells use it's energy to boost life and nature.

    It's hard to find a reason to give it up, but the Legion at least was a reason the elves were willing to give it up, and those who survived the sundering did so mostly for a time - (SHend'ralar were the exceptions here)

    Magic can be very seductive and sweet to use, making it addictive, hence why you have to be very disciplined, but it's benefits are great once mastered. Races must determine if it's worth the risk, because it is not easy to handle nor easy to master and things can go wrong.

    yet if done well, this can totally be transformed.

    For the elves, magic is part of their blood and make up, in their genes almost,. They can stop using it for a while, like the Northern night elves did, but it is still there. They can do great things with it as they have all shown, however, gaining dependence can be crippling as both the Sunwell and the Nightwell's losss proved to both the Thalassians and the Nightborne.

    The night elves first provide solution. Magic must be used in balance. Elves must not only be careful to avoid making mistakes while handling magic because of it's volatile nature requiring a lot of skill etc, but they must also , use magic in balance, to ensure they never get addicted and thus compromise their morality because of a source. Night elves - whether Highborne or not, Nightborne and High elves seem to hold this view. However illidari elves, void elves feel that it's use is a dire necessity beyond societal and comfort benefits, but as a matter of survival against bigger threats, and the sin'dorei view it as power to be ceased to destroy their enemies and never suffer from what the Scourge was able to do while they are alive and have power to wield and as such won't give up magic.


    • Blood elves and Illidari appear more destructive orientated with magic
    • Night elves more life-enhancing affirming in their use of the arcane
    • Highborne and High elves more constructive and creation orientated
    • Void elves more scholarly for defensive/offensive means with it.
    • Nightborne most free and comfortable with it

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post

    - - - Updated - - -



    Oh yeah, the awesome industrial and scientific revolution in Dalar... Oh wait.
    I don't understand that rebuttal, can you explain?

    My opinion is that you are so annoyed by the fact that Jaina is OP that you are blinding yourself to explanations, they might not be satisfactory or pleasing, but they do exist. I'm not going to say whether your view of Jaina is right or wrong, only that it's giving you tunnel vision.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The way Suramar's aristocracy resolved its problems were duels to the death, which are practiced both for major reasons and for just minor breaches of decorum. Keeping yourself sharp would be a cultural necessity. They've had ten thousand years to master their craft, so even if they spent only a hundred years at it they'd still have vastly more experience than Jaina. There was every incentive to stay up to date in terms of combat skills and even if they didn't, in terms of magical proximity, Thalyssra and every Nightborne was linked to a Titan-relic empowered pool of mana to the point of subsisting on it for ten thousand years. They literally drank and ate mana.
    the practice of presenting a champion in place of yourself already makes staying in shape unnecessary. you could just buy your way out of a fight, which is probably the way to go for a member of a stable and unaging aristocracy.
    the Nightborne did live off titan flavored mana, but it looks like their efforts were aimed at increasing their living conditions to the point of decadence while maintaing the barrier to protect this lifestyle. in the absence of 'natural predators', the only reason to train would be to show off.
    they did have some notable achievements in the magic domain, like arcwine and mana-powered roombas. enchanted brooms from Silvermoon or Dalaran already look stone-agey in comparison.
    besides magic luxuries, Suramar had leyline and telemancy research. both, imo, due to the limited territory of the city and evergrowing needs of the populace. i think, by connecting leylines to the Nightwell, you get more magic to conjure food and/or power roombas. with telemancy, you're getting the resources into the city without the need to leave it. the entire culture - not just Thalyssra - could stay in a literal bubble with no need to become stronger.

    in turn, human/thalassian magic culture has always been a weapon first. didn't help against the undead zerg rush, but did against the Amani. to me, it makes sense that Jaina would be trained to melt faces above all else - and that this training was both successful and justified.

    even if we disregard difficulties with determining their skills, Stormwind can't be compared to a duel, where the strongest supposedly wins. it was an almost botched mission in an alert enemy city with people you've never worked before. Thalyssra can't be certain that a confrontation with Jaina is winnable, can't be certain that a random stormwind guard doesn't shield bash her in the middle of casting a spell (probably requiring concentration) and can't be certain that her new teammates stop the guard before the interruption.

    Jaina's power level is questionable (like removing the plague in Lordaeron. on a floating ship.), but i don't think that the Stormwind scenario is a good illustration of that.

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