Poll: Can all of Azeroth's elves (especially high and blood elves) use some kind of magic?

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I know this is your gig, so I'm wasting my time, but there's no excusing Jaina's nakedly absurd power level. The way Suramar's aristocracy resolved its problems were duels to the death, which are practiced both for major reasons and for just minor breaches of decorum. Keeping yourself sharp would be a cultural necessity. They've had ten thousand years to master their craft, so even if they spent only a hundred years at it they'd still have vastly more experience than Jaina. There was every incentive to stay up to date in terms of combat skills and even if they didn't, in terms of magical proximity, Thalyssra and every Nightborne was linked to a Titan-relic empowered pool of mana to the point of subsisting on it for ten thousand years. They literally drank and ate mana.

    This is notwithstanding that Jaina's own combat record isn't some constant history of war, she was sedentary for the entire Vanilla to Mists stretch short of Wrathgate.
    What's my gig? Not being a hater who twists the lore into a cheap caricature and then try to pass it off as the real thing? That's the difference between my mindset and those of people on the forums. I see something that doesn't make sense, think about the lore, and try to make it fit. Other guys see something that doesn't make sense, don't even try to figure it out, and come on here to complain it doesn't make sense. I see it all the time when people post stories online. People read a chapter, don't get something, and post comments screaming about plot holes and retcons and what have you. Only for it to be explained in the very next chapter. WoW's story is a book series we haven't seen the end of. Hell, it took us a decade to learn more about the vrykul after we first met them.

    As for your entire "how the aristocracy resolved its problems" thing, you can't establish a pattern with one incident. For all we know that tal'ashar was the only one in the last 10,000 years, and was only spurred on by the felborne becoming more violent from exposure to fel magic. And as we see from that very storyline you don't even need to do it yourself, you can buy a champion to do it for you. So your point doesn't hold water.

    As for literally eating and drinking mana, it can't be that huge of a perk for the average member since they can run out and starve in a matter of weeks. It's not like they're standing by it channeling all the time like the nobles and Elisande were, so I think you're overestimating that.

    As for Jaina's record we have all her battles in the RTS, including fighting the Scourge, reclaiming Theramore, and fighting the Legion at Hyjal. And from MoP onward it's been one power up and battle after another, starting with the Staff of Antonidas getting imbued with leftover Aman'thul power. Not sure why you brought up Wrathgate, she wasn't involved there tmk.

    And going back to my previous point, Jaina's magic is an outside context problem to Thalyssra. She's a master of the magic the nightborne use, that doesn't make her an expert or even knowledgable about the magic other races use.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    I don't understand that rebuttal, can you explain?

    My opinion is that you are so annoyed by the fact that Jaina is OP that you are blinding yourself to explanations, they might not be satisfactory or pleasing, but they do exist. I'm not going to say whether your view of Jaina is right or wrong, only that it's giving you tunnel vision.
    Hit the nail on the head. Any explanation for WHY Jaina won that fight are whittled down to "bad writing durr".

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    So you are implying that Thaly was unable to learn anything of worth during her >10k years lifetime, but Elsa could master everything there is to learn in ~40, surpassing even the centuries-old blood elves or the millennia-old draenei? Sounds totally logical, after all it isn't as if Humans don't have any other renowned spellcasters
    In the 1910s, basic arithmetic counted as graduate-level studies and now I teach it to my 3 year old because 100 years has passed and we've grown better and more efficient at learning and teaching. It's entirely sensible that a human (long established as early as the Dragonsoul book as having natural abilities to tap into huge unrefined arcane magic) taught by those very elves and other scholarly Humans in Dalaran --not to mention the immediate tutelage of the then-Leader and highly esteemed Archmage-- be able to produce innovative new uses of magic that are unfamiliar to the elves, especially those without access to external developments for 10,000 years. I love Thaly, but your argument lacks any critical thought.

  3. #23
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Nah, not really. Suramar or Silvermoon aren't "in decline", not any more than Stormwind/Kul Tiras/Dalaran, at any rate. But sure, muh tradutionul fantusiez

    @cparle87 nice headcanon m8, but in the end it doesn't explain why Humans have towering wizards like Aegwynn, Medivh, Rhonin, Khadgar, or Jaina Suemoore, while everyone else gets to look in awe at them. And that includes the draenei, who according to the wiki:



    And the Nightborne not having any necessity of magic or inventions? How the @#%& were they supposed to fight the Legion otherwise? WTF was Oculeth doing in a WORKSHOP then? No, he wasn't inventing anything, no research whatsoever.
    While this is another pointless, thread to circlejerking about elves(that prob should be in the RP part of the forum) You are wasting your time, they will not acknowledge the nonsense of humans being better than everybody in everything, its one of the classic cliches of fantasy genre, where authors self-insert as humans because, well, we are humans.

    Someone saying Jaina "learned much in 40 years" comapared to elves and draeneis is just nonsensical, Jaina stop learning in dalaran when it was attacked by the scourge and landed in theramore, in't like she spend all the later eyars studying magic.

    she for sure is a capable mage, but to tower others is just blatantly human protagonism

  4. #24
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    I think all the Elven races in the Warcraft universe have an innate affinity for magic, but they're not all Mages nor do they all use magic on a day-to-day basis. Lor'themar Theron and Halduron Brightwing are two examples of Elves who have, to my knowledge, never cast a spell or used any kind of Arcane magic (befitting their roles as Rangers in Warcraft's class layout). The Elven affinity for magic more or less expresses itself as the various Elven races having a higher percentage of magic-users in their populations than the norm, be it a latent or actively expressed talent.

    As for proficiency, I find a Mage's capabilities are generally expression on three basic levels, two of which are inborn or innate and one of which is environment/developmental: natural intellect, innate capacity for channeling power, and their own experience or level of knowledge of magical theory and/or practice. Jaina, for example, seems like a Mage with a lot of natural talent and an innate ability to channel massive power, but she's a bit short on magical knowledge (which is why most of her spells are offensive in nature and she demonstrates little in the way of a repertoire). Mostly she can teleport things and she can conjure offensive power, but that's really it. Khadgar, by contrast, is an example of a Mage who may not have the same natural ability to channel Jaina's level of power, but knows more about magical theory and has more experience, and thus demonstrates a wider range of abilities like combining magical schools and practicing obscure disciplines of magic. Thalyssra and Valtrois seem to tip even further toward the side of magical theory and exploring the mechanical nature of magic - neither of them are really combat-oriented Mages like Jaina or Khadgar, but rather more akin to scientists and specialists of magical theory. Oculeth would probably be the marquee example of a discipline specialist, with his focus on arcane teleportation and telemancy - he has few pure combat abilities, but his grasp on the mechanics of telemancy make him exceedingly wily and ofttimes dangerous regardless.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Nah, not really. Suramar or Silvermoon aren't "in decline", not any more than Stormwind/Kul Tiras/Dalaran, at any rate. But sure, muh tradutionul fantusiez
    So you know they did accomplish things. Actually we all saw what the nightborne were capable of in Legion, since they were both antagonists and allies.

    So your complaint is that... They are less powerful than a MC in the story ?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    While this is another pointless, thread to circlejerking about elves
    You do know you can start your own threads to see who will circlejerk about your poor, innocent, misunderstood orcs who wouldn't hurt a fly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  7. #27
    Stood in the Fire Chromeshellking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think all the Elven races in the Warcraft universe have an innate affinity for magic, but they're not all Mages nor do they all use magic on a day-to-day basis. Lor'themar Theron and Halduron Brightwing are two examples of Elves who have, to my knowledge, never cast a spell or used any kind of Arcane magic (befitting their roles as Rangers in Warcraft's class layout). The Elven affinity for magic more or less expresses itself as the various Elven races having a higher percentage of magic-users in their populations than the norm, be it a latent or actively expressed talent.

    As for proficiency, I find a Mage's capabilities are generally expression on three basic levels, two of which are inborn or innate and one of which is environment/developmental: natural intellect, innate capacity for channeling power, and their own experience or level of knowledge of magical theory and/or practice. Jaina, for example, seems like a Mage with a lot of natural talent and an innate ability to channel massive power, but she's a bit short on magical knowledge (which is why most of her spells are offensive in nature and she demonstrates little in the way of a repertoire). Mostly she can teleport things and she can conjure offensive power, but that's really it. Khadgar, by contrast, is an example of a Mage who may not have the same natural ability to channel Jaina's level of power, but knows more about magical theory and has more experience, and thus demonstrates a wider range of abilities like combining magical schools and practicing obscure disciplines of magic. Thalyssra and Valtrois seem to tip even further toward the side of magical theory and exploring the mechanical nature of magic - neither of them are really combat-oriented Mages like Jaina or Khadgar, but rather more akin to scientists and specialists of magical theory. Oculeth would probably be the marquee example of a discipline specialist, with his focus on arcane teleportation and telemancy - he has few pure combat abilities, but his grasp on the mechanics of telemancy make him exceedingly wily and ofttimes dangerous regardless.
    This guy's posts are always a treat to read.
    Last edited by Chromeshellking; 2022-01-06 at 08:44 PM. Reason: Grammar
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  8. #28
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    You do know you can start your own threads to see who will circlejerk about your poor, innocent, misunderstood orcs who wouldn't hurt a fly.
    to spam and flood the forums? that is against the rules, no thank you

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    I don't understand that rebuttal, can you explain?

    My opinion is that you are so annoyed by the fact that Jaina is OP that you are blinding yourself to explanations, they might not be satisfactory or pleasing, but they do exist. I'm not going to say whether your view of Jaina is right or wrong, only that it's giving you tunnel vision.
    I think Jaina has been established as a very powerful and skilled sorceress throughout the entire franchise, with her powers growing steadily with each expansion; I think people who thought her feat of raising the Proudmoore ship from the depths of the ocean was too powerful are overlooking the fact that her people, the Kul Tirans, have had a natural affinity for the tides for centuries, that was why she became a Frost Mage in the first place. Besides, she was plenty of experience gathering water elementals already from her Focusing Iris incident.

    However...I think Thalyssra has been portrayed very poorly also - I do think it is bizarre why she would be terrified of Jaina, although in Nazjatar, they are shown more or less as equals. Even so, Thalyssra should absolutely be somewhat more powerful than Jaina -- she is the First Arcanist of Suramar, after all, one of the greatest ancient magical capitals of the world, having trained and refined her skills with the other Highborne of her city for 10,000 years on end, and let's not forget how powerful Azshara herself is, stated explicitly to be far more powerful than the likes of Jaina and Khadgar.

    If Thalyssra is so weak...what is the point of the shal'dorei joining the Horde? Providing them with a network of telemancy portals that doesn't seem that superior to anything the Kirin Tor can offer the Alliance?
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2022-01-09 at 02:01 AM.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  10. #30
    Agatha = Thalyssra

    Wanda = Jaina

    Thalyssra may be an expert, but thats nothing if you don't have innate ability.
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  11. #31
    All elves can use magic in WoW since they all carry the magical legacy of the ancient Well of Eternity. The Well did not just provide them with magic, it transformed them. It's not just practice, it's biology we're talking about.

    It's obvious for Blood Elves, Void Elves and Nightborne.

    For Night Elves and High Elves, it's a bit more complicated : they chose not to use magic anymore (Night Elves to a greater extent than High Elves). But they're still capable of using it.

    For example, Night Elves still use portals (Teldrassil/Rut'Theran, Moonglade), practice enchanting and use certain arcane spells (ex: wardens have the blink ability). Also, one may wonder if the Moon Wells are of magical nature or not.
    In the end, what matters is Night Elves chose not to be the almighty mages they once were anymore (I'm not counting the Shendralar mages since they're not Night Elves but Highborne).

    As for the Nagas, I don't know. I've never encountered warrior nagas capable of casting spells. But who knows? They've been empowered not only by the Well, but also by the Old Gods, so?
    Last edited by KeeperOfTheGarden; 2022-01-07 at 07:16 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by KeeperOfTheGarden View Post
    For Night Elves and High Elves, it's a bit more complicated : they chose not to use magic anymore (Night Elves to a greater extent than High Elves). But they're still capable of using it.

    For example, Night Elves still use portals (Teldrassil/Rut'Theran, Moonglade), practice enchanting and use certain arcane spells (ex: wardens have the blink ability). Also, one may wonder if the Moon Wells are of magical nature or not.
    In the end, what matters is Night Elves chose not to be the almighty mages they once were anymore (I'm not counting the Shendralar mages since they're not Night Elves but Highborne).
    High elves absolutely use magic. I'm not sure what would make you believe otherwise.

    Highborne are night elves.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    High elves absolutely use magic. I'm not sure what would make you believe otherwise.

    Highborne are night elves.
    Highborne do use magic, but it seems to be a combination of arcane and nature magic. I mean, Mordent Evenshade, the leader of the Highborne, used a lot of nature based spells.

    The High Elves - we have 1 group in the Hinterlands that gave up on using magic.
    The Quel'Eastern Plaguelands High Elves - they had a High Priestess, but no arcane users / mages.

    The main group of High Elves, within the Silver Covenant, seem to be the core high elves and use a lot of arcane and holy magic.

  14. #34
    @guro-tchai @cparle87

    Addressing both since many of the same points are touched upon.

    I disagree comprehensively with all parts of the argument made, both as regards the Nightborne and the logic of Jaina's power level. The Nightborne are more magically adept both culturally and physically than Dalaran, Dalaran doesn't have combat experience to the extent that it matters, neither does Jaina and the whole premise of applied vs. studied magic is a Trojan Horse excusing the narrative's retarded treatment of human vs. elf/draenei power levels.

    I linked Tal'ashar because the article itself says outright the mundanity of the challenge as part of Nightborne culture. It's not unusual to be challenged to mortal combat. Now, the article is unsourced, but neither Lyleth nor her challenger are treated as unusual for having issued that challenge. Within Suramar we in fact see the kinds of magic we don't see before or since, with the first and most powerful spellblade, Elisande stopping time for an entire army and then still having the juice to rewind encounters at will, and someone merging with a tree and splitting his consciousness between several bodies. It's a combat-oriented sophistication we don't see in Dalaran. Both in text and in deed we see that not only do the Nightborne have a reason to stay fit for combat culturally speaking, be it just their champions or the nobility itself, but this is actually shown to us in forms of magic we don't see anywhere else. On a purely logical level, a society that has a lifetime far exceeding the human one would have far more time to study and apply magic than humans would due to pure physical reasons. Further, being linked to a Titan-tier relic on a society-wide level easily trumps having an item (that Jaina doesn't use) tied to the remnant of, not even a Titan Watcher, but someone using the power of a Titan Watcher. The power boost Jaina would receive from using a staff charged from the Thunder King's platform would by all logic be trumped by the sheer breadth of exposure of every Nightborne mage over the course of a hundred times Jaina's entire lifespan.

    Dalaran was based on elf magic, they were taught the arcane as an origin point by elves. Their knowledge starts from there and they have no exclusive magic from there. Yes, the Guardians are exceptional, but as we know from the Tirisgarde and Dalaran, the Guardians didn't share info with the Council of Six and it was only the Guardian that was tasked with fighting demon incursions. The known Dalaran combat deployments for the entirety of its existence are the Troll Wars, the Second War and the Third War. The Troll Wars involve a single collective cast at a given area, which we later see Elisande replicate on her own, the Second War has them comparable to less trained orcish warlocks and the Third War has Arthas steamroll barriers made specifically against undead. Mages weren't a factor in the Gurubashi siege of Stormwind or the Gnoll War before it and mages in general were so unintegrated into society that they were treated with suspicion for most of this time. Dalaran was an academic setting based on elven practices, elven practices from the old Empire like Suramar in fact, and as such, an actual elven society actually linked to an arcane reservoir and having an exponentially longer time to build would by all rights be more potent given that all the same factors apply but one has even more resources. Jaina is no exception to this.

    Jaina is not some kind of seasoned warmage. Her power is a product of illogic and narrative contrivance meant to build her up because she's a main character. She's a powerful mage in WC3 but she fights in the Human campaign and then in the very end of the fight with Archimonde, then she lets the Horde kill her dad. These are a handful of major engagements. When she next fights it's vs. more standard undead in the Wrathgate and then she's about on par with Thalen, a mundane blood elf mage at Theramore, after a massive gap of engagement. Jaina doesn't fight for most of Mists, with the exception of the Sunreaver Purge, which is her second major fight with actual other spellcasters, and that's basically it for her besides fighting demons in the Legion interim period. Jaina is not a seasoned veteran in a non-stop state of war against opponents of comparable power who the Nightborne would not know of, leading into the last major point.

    The fact that Suramar was closed off only matters in so far as they are behind a world or an opponent that's otherwise developed, but this isn't the case. Jaina isn't carrying an AK-47 and Stormwind and Dalaran are both, as noted by your own posts, inferior in all major societal ways to Suramar and in the integration of magic especially. The people she fights are either comparable to the demons that the Suramar denizens, Thalyssra included would have fought or are those same demons. Jaina's combat experience against orcs warriors or blood elves are comparable to what could be fought either immediately before Suramar - felguards and other demons, or in Suramar proper - entirely composed of elven casters. There's no gulf of innovation or of incomparable skillsets, everything Jaina can do has been based on elf learning and employed against opponents which are if anything the inferiors of Thalyssra's. The practicality and practice vs. theory argument is an inapplicable cliche and chestnut maybe useful in other settings but completely out of the field of the debate on whether it makes any sort of sense that Thalyssra is impressed with Jaina's power or that Jaina is stronger.

    And don't even get me started on the Stormwind scenario where not just Thalyssra but several Horde leaders and a fucking raid boss are somehow scared of facing her. Jaina's power is pure wank and a narrative pestilence besides, rendering BFA an illogical mess as to why she doesn't just blink into Orgrimmar and cap Sylvanas in the head with her godlike abilities.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-01-07 at 09:39 PM.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    So you are implying that Thaly was unable to learn anything of worth during her >10k years lifetime, but Elsa could master everything there is to learn in ~40, surpassing even the centuries-old blood elves or the millennia-old draenei? Sounds totally logical, after all it isn't as if Humans don't have any other renowned spellcasters
    Dude I think the point of that was to show the stagnation of Nightborne society and culture.

    In fact, that has been a thing with magic between humans vs elves since the start of Warcraft; elves having longer life spans are careful and measured in their studies, while the shorter lifespan humans are more chaotic on their study of magic.

    Also the fact that Jaina has been described multiple times as a a "once in a lifetime" human mage while Thalyssra is a well studied but regular NB, should tell you something.

    A more apt comparison, would be Jaina and Aszhara, and who do you think would win there?

  16. #36
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    In fact, that has been a thing with magic between humans vs elves since the start of Warcraft; elves having longer life spans are careful and measured in their studies, while the shorter lifespan humans are more chaotic on their study of magic.
    Alright, but still that doesn’t explain why all non-Human spellcasters are such wimps, with the sole exception of two @$&%ing raid bosses.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Also the fact that Jaina has been described multiple times as a a "once in a lifetime" human mage
    Sources?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Alright, but still that doesn’t explain why all non-Human spellcasters are such wimps, with the sole exception of two @$&%ing raid bosses.
    That's more of a problem with how characters are represented, not about how powerful they are. Is like yeah, maybe Thalyssra being impressed by Jaina's skill would be more noteworthy if we saw her doing more grandiose stuff herself.

    The problem is that Jaina's abilities are represented so grandiosely because she's the exemption when it comes to humans, high level spellcasting on elves is just... normalized, and if you actually peeled the curtain a bit and let all proficient mages go hog wild, this would become world of magecraft.

    In short, Jaina's prominence isn't because she is the best mage, but because she is a mage that is a main character.


    Sources?
    I think I kinda misquoted out of memory and the phrase was "the most powerful human sorceress alive" as per the WoW manual and some quest text.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I linked Tal'ashar because the article itself says outright the mundanity of the challenge as part of Nightborne culture. It's not unusual to be challenged to mortal combat. Now, the article is unsourced, but neither Lyleth nor her challenger are treated as unusual for having issued that challenge.
    choosing a champion to represent you is also perfectly acceptable. therefore being personally proficient in combat is not a necessity to retain a place in the aristocracy - even more so, it's risky. buy a fighter, get titles.

    Within Suramar we in fact see the kinds of magic we don't see before or since, with the first and most powerful spellblade, Elisande stopping time for an entire army and then still having the juice to rewind encounters at will, and someone merging with a tree and splitting his consciousness between several bodies.
    yes, that's Elisande's closest and most loyal allies, who were probably getting a condensed Nightwell juice booster daily - while Thalyssra and the populace in general were starving. they are elite and unique, and i haven't seen their tricks replicated by other nightborne to this day.
    however, a notable and common spell is Undo Wounds, a time-manipulating healing technique. which is not used by the nightborne island expedition team. and that raises the question, can the nightborne manipulate time (as?) easily after the shutdown of the Nightwell and removal of the Eye?

    On a purely logical level, a society that has a lifetime far exceeding the human one would have far more time to study and apply magic than humans would due to pure physical reasons.
    even an eternity can be wasted - especially on poetry nights and arcwine. the same amount of time wasn't enough to secure alternative routes to Darkshore and northern Kalimdor in general for the night elves.

    another issue i have with the idea that every nightborne mage is op by definition is the difficulty of maintaining order in such a society. i speculate that Elisande had total control over Nightwell energies and its' effects on the population, reducing them to cosmetic changes to hair/nails (shouldn't their teeth glow, lul?). magic was sparingly dispensed with the goal of achieving high social stratification. that would explain why some plebs are forced to physically carry a palanquin of a noble, or law enforcement statues.

    Further, being linked to a Titan-tier relic on a society-wide level easily trumps having an item
    so they had to share it?

    an item (that Jaina doesn't use)
    questionable. her new staff differs from the previous one, but seeing how she was retroactively equipped with it in SoO suggests that it's the same, just improved.

    by all logic
    i don't see it. i see a source of magic which was controlled by Elisande, its' primary function being sustaining basic bodily functions and which worked only in a small area. i'm saying that it's not a powerup, it's basic life support; not a supplement, but a food replacement. this line from their article: "When the city ran out of food the nightborne started utilizing the substance of their Nightwell as nourishment and thus were spared death." supports that. i'd be glad to be proven wrong.

    Their knowledge starts from there and they have no exclusive magic from there.
    it isn't exclusive because it's universally taught. arcane intellect is literally their logo.

    The known Dalaran combat deployments
    doesn't equal all that happened. they had neighbors, like Amani from the Hinterlands. there was a potential for conflict justifying the need for offensive magic research.

    Second War has them comparable to less trained orcish warlocks
    i'm not sure how can they be compared?

    Third War has Arthas steamroll barriers made specifically against undead
    yes, they got overwhelmed. just like Quel'thalas, unfortunately.

    were so unintegrated into society that they were treated with suspicion for most of this time
    how does the reluctance to work with them relate to the evaluation of their power level?

    Dalaran was an academic setting based on elven practices, elven practices from the old Empire like Suramar
    practices evolve. iirc, arabic and latin script both evolved from phoenician, but they have little in common now. due to the conditions they found themselves in, mages in the Eastern kingdoms would need tools for survival, while Suramar mages could use their stable and unconditional safety as a reason to dedicate themselves to magically enhanced art or botanic and architectural improvements.

    in fact, and as such, an actual elven society actually linked to an arcane reservoir and having an exponentially longer time to build would by all rights be more potent given that all the same factors apply but one has even more resources.
    1. again, it didn't help Quel'thalas, falling under the same definition.
    2. it's not just a magic military comparison like who's gonna win if Suramar and Dalaran fight, but rather what skills could a mage emerging from this culture possess?

    Jaina is not some kind of seasoned warmage. Her power is a product of illogic and narrative contrivance meant to build her up because she's a main character.
    as seasoned as people in Azeroth can be, but the second part is partly true. an explanation previously given is the human titanforged ancestry, making them natural magic wielders, imperssing their first thalassian teachers. a flimsy hypothetical justification for her OPness can be particularly strong expression of titan blood or something

    she next fights it's vs. more standard undead in the Wrathgate
    ICC

    she's about on par with Thalen
    could you elaborate? his article says only that he "prepared to do battle" with Proudmoore

    Jaina doesn't fight for most of Mists
    Isle of Thunder, SoO? expected off-screen engagement?

    The fact that Suramar was closed off only matters in so far as they are behind a world or an opponent that's otherwise developed, but this isn't the case. Jaina isn't carrying an AK-47 and Stormwind and Dalaran are both, as noted by your own posts, inferior in all major societal ways to Suramar and in the integration of magic especially.
    yes, Silvermoon and Dalaran, as i said, are both inferior in enchanted luxury manufacturing. instead of figuring out how to make shoulders look cool, they had trolls to kill. mages of Suramar not only ignore fireballs/frostbolts, we have no evidence that they practiced necromancy, non-time-related healing magic, fel magic - Dalaran floating above them impresses even the Chief Telemancer. (btw i'm still not sure how that works and where did they find the energy to lift it)

    Thalyssra would have fought those same demons
    she was suffering from withdrawal half of the Suramar campaign and safely planning it the second. how many times did we see her fight - twice?

    The practicality and practice vs. theory argument is an inapplicable cliche and chestnut maybe useful in other settings but completely out of the field of the debate on whether it makes any sort of sense that Thalyssra is impressed with Jaina's power or that Jaina is stronger.
    in which settings is this argument useful and why can't it be used here, except for being dumb in and of itself?

    And don't even get me started on the Stormwind scenario where not just Thalyssra but several Horde leaders and a fucking raid boss are somehow scared of facing her.
    it was Thalyssra, Rokhan, Talanji and Zul. first i consider to be an efficient bureaucrat leading a decadence-recovering culture, second - a well-known scout and a shaman, third - an aspiring priestess of a powerful loa and fourth - a more or less reliable seer. against an entire capital of a faction.
    1. being a leader doesn't make you strong by itself, as evidenced by Jaina's mom. it's a title.
    2. the mission wasn't to wreck Stormwind, the mission was to safely deliver Talanji and Zul to Sylvanas. fighting Jaina wasn't necessarily a suicide, but it was a risk.
    3. limited information about Jaina, Thalyssra's teammates and the place they're in makes the choice to avoid combat even more natural.
    4. by raid boss you mean Zul, i assume. to become one he had to be killed and pumped full of G'huun juice. at the moment of Stormwind extraction and Zandalar campaign he's a guy with a weird prophetic gift and a sword, who gets killed by a recently wounded grampa, buffed by Bwonsamdi.
    Jaina, in return, is a raid boss without any additional buffs.

    Jaina's power is pure wank and a narrative pestilence besides, rendering BFA an illogical mess as to why she doesn't just blink into Orgrimmar and cap Sylvanas in the head with her godlike abilities.
    that's true! however, it doesn't just affect BfA.
    - in 5.1 - even before getting an echo of Aman'thul's power - she has enough power to roflstomp Aethas. he's a talented elf and he's most likely older than Jaina, but she still imprisons him.
    - in Legion, our massteleporter extraordinaire can't port Varian away from the Broken shore - despite being there. was she negligent, inattentive, malevolent, simply out of mana? no, it's just that her presence on the Broken shore was needed as an old and strong Alliance character. i'm pretty sure they didn't think it through.

    what i don't understand is that they don't think through a lot of things, but you find Jaina especially annoying. why?
    it seems you wouldn't mind if her skull were to be turned into drinkware. personally, i can understand that, considering that i fully support Saurfang on his journey in becoming a wrist enchant, but is she that indigestible?

    regarding her narrative impact, i don't think she's the most incomprehensible part of the plot, that creates unanswerable questions. just the premise of WoD and SL is a disaster in comparison to her.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Highborne do use magic, but it seems to be a combination of arcane and nature magic. I mean, Mordent Evenshade, the leader of the Highborne, used a lot of nature based spells.

    The High Elves - we have 1 group in the Hinterlands that gave up on using magic.
    The Quel'Eastern Plaguelands High Elves - they had a High Priestess, but no arcane users / mages.

    The main group of High Elves, within the Silver Covenant, seem to be the core high elves and use a lot of arcane and holy magic.
    Perhaps those are in-game errors or something; the Talrendis Lorekeepers also use Balance Druid abilities, although perhaps they are former druids or ancient night elf mages who became druids (like Malfurion), and switched again after the Shen'dralar returned?

    I think all blood elves can use arcane energy to some extent - but this seems to be mostly instinctual and limited - for example, Valeera as a blood elf rogue was able to use Mana Tap to weaken Broll Bearmantle, and also sense and drain others' of their magical abilities and items later on.

    Regarding Jaina and Thalyssra's power comparisons, Khadgar was barely able to hold back Elisanede's time lock spell for several minutes, and nearly shattered the flow of time while doing so, saving only a single individual with all his efforts. As Khadgar is therefore to have unlikely have been a match for Elisande himself, and he is roughly equal to Jaina, I doubt Jaina should be stronger than Thalyssra.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

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