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  1. #241
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    So wait, what prevents you from using your own key and climbing up to the +20 (or higher) that you previously achieved in Legion? Or is it you just don't want to bother with that progression and want to shortcut straight to high keys based on a previous expansion's experience/score?
    Have you actually tried that? If you have the Raider.io addon, you can see the group leaders score etc. It's the exact same thing, no one will join you if you don't have the score, just like leaders won't invite you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    Yeah, you know what's worse? People who don't even bother trying to use their own keys and then blame everyone else for not inviting them.

    Go prove them wrong, be the better guy, use your own key and invite everyone who doesn't get invited to other keys. You should be able to do quite well, there's people doing pretty high keys without a healer after all.

    I tried, nearly impossible to find anyone, and the ones who actually sign up are really bad, they have no previous experience or enchants and stuff like that. I am in the category "ex-hardcore end game player", that's no brag, but there are not many like me to invite

  2. #242
    Battlebeard, you are way behind the times with your r.io whinging. Blizzard made their own m+ score and since its inception nobody complains about r.io anymore.

    Also pretending to have done Legion 25s and calling them easy, at the same time pretending noone will now take you to a +5... quit trolling buddy.

  3. #243
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Battlebeard, you are way behind the times with your r.io whinging. Blizzard made their own m+ score and since its inception nobody complains about r.io anymore.

    Also pretending to have done Legion 25s and calling them easy, at the same time pretending noone will now take you to a +5... quit trolling buddy.
    I did do a lot of 25s in Legion, but keys were far easier then. Legion 25 is prolly equal to like BFA/SL 15 or so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    Yeah, you know what's worse? People who don't even bother trying to use their own keys and then blame everyone else for not inviting them.

    Go prove them wrong, be the better guy, use your own key and invite everyone who doesn't get invited to other keys. You should be able to do quite well, there's people doing pretty high keys without a healer after all.


    I don't wanna play with plebs so to speak, harsh truth, a lot of people are not very good.

    I am not complaining cause I have nothing to show and don't get invited, I am complaining that what I have is not enough to get invited, while it should be. If they link me stuff I have, I'd take them, but they have litterally nothing and are new to the game, 99% of them at least.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I dunno man, I always had the mindset that raiding and doing dungeons is like riding a bike, you never forget, like "once a mythic raider, always a mythic raider", anyone good enough to get 1 cutting edge is good enough to get any cutting edge. Obviously you need to learn tactics, but if someone, for instance, links a cutting edge for a previous expansion + say they know tactics, I'd invite them to HC every day of the week, I value that more than someone with the current Ahead of the curve.

    Same for M+. I did high keys in Legion, which one can argue were easier dungeons, but still, I understand the pressure of high keys and affixes etc, but since I have nothing done in SL, I still can't get invited to a single M+ dungeon. I find it riddicilous that I can't get invited to anything above maybe +5 right now when I did +25 in Legion.

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    I WISH I could do some M+, I don't hate the concept, I just hate the way the leaders operate. Unless you are already in the raider.io club, you can't get in
    exactly bro, thats why i would ask peoples experience in previous expansions, if you linked me high keys from legion i would of cut you a break and invited you, these clowns that just started in shadowlands dont know what it is to push high keys, they think they do, but they really dont.

    What i was finding was players like you no longer existed, it was ALL new to shadowlands players up in 21/22/23 keys so they were just flaming me because i didnt want to play with them, i was declining 2600+ players and accepting 2400 players, there was no discussion about it. "bro this aint legion" "bro this aint bfa" "bro this aint raid" (when i used to check raid logs on tyranical weeks)

    You dont forget the importance of interupting and defensives once you have learnt and began to understand there importance. so even if your off a little with current tacs, your general gameplay is gonne be far better than these new players that just eat everything while fapping to meters.

    Game is a joke, its playerbase is a joke everything about wow is currently a joke. i cant think of 1 good thing to say about what the game has become.

  5. #245
    Pandaren Monk Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I don't wanna play with plebs so to speak, harsh truth, a lot of people are not very good.

    I am not complaining cause I have nothing to show and don't get invited, I am complaining that what I have is not enough to get invited, while it should be. If they link me stuff I have, I'd take them, but they have litterally nothing and are new to the game, 99% of them at least.

    But Battlebeard, how do we know you aren't a pleb so to speak? Honestly, when someone is forming a group for M+ the only information they are given is your ilv and M+ score (or r.io score if you have the addon). That's it. No history from previous expansions, no achievement linking, nothing else that would show that you're not a pleb.

    Also factor in that you're not the only person applying for a group. There could be other players competing for a spot and if they have a higher score then odds are likely that they might be favored over you. Like you said, folks don't want to play with plebs so to speak and a person with zero score might be a pleb.

    Granted with boosting, a person with a high score might also be a pleb which is why players now also look at history of completed dungeons as a factor as well. Under 10 completed dungeons at the +15 level? Could be a boost... over 50 completed dungeons at the +15 level? Probably not a boost.


    Honestly, if score such a limiting factor (which I don't think it is) then it's all the more reason to find communities/guilds of folks who do M+ regularly and form up premades instead of doing the PuG thing. Or at the very least, do the community/guild premades until you reach a certain threshold then venture back into PuGs.
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  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I did do a lot of 25s in Legion, but keys were far easier then. Legion 25 is prolly equal to like BFA/SL 15 or so.
    I would be interested in why do you lie so blatantly? You don't even try to make up some half believable shit. Doing a lot of 25s in Legion and finding them easy you literally would have been a world top 100 player. Who thinks later 15s are comparable. Who can't get into a +5 now... have a nice day mate.

  7. #247
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    I would be interested in why do you lie so blatantly? You don't even try to make up some half believable shit. Doing a lot of 25s in Legion and finding them easy you literally would have been a world top 100 player. Who thinks later 15s are comparable. Who can't get into a +5 now... have a nice day mate.
    Did you play back then? It was not particulary hard, at the end of Legion, ALOT of people did +30 keys even. +25 wasn't brutal for someone who had bis gear etc. I was pretty good back then, I did alot of raiding, and M+ keys, and I boosted Challenge Modes in MoP and WoD, I loved to do high level dungeons.

    But then came BFA, didn't play it, and now in Legion, everything changed. No one cares anymore about previous experiences, it's extremely hard to get involved nowadays. And the + levels change per season and per expansion as well. How many did +30 in Legion, VERY many, how man do +30 in SL, very very few, you really can't compare the levels of the expansions. BUT having done +25 back then, I know that shouldn't qualify me for +25 here, but +15 for sure, +10 without a doubt. Yet, nope.

    It's the oldest dilemma there is, applied to work IRL too. Everyone demanding experience to get the job, but you can't get experience without a job. An endless loop that very few managed to get out of. And I refuse to buy boost. I hate entitled kids, but I'm over 30 and spent thousands of hours grinding high dungeons from MoP to Legion, I DO feel a little entitled to get back into dungeons now!

    People need to start taking chances on people and to start value the right accomplishments. This is not just about me, and it's not some brag, but if you worked hard in the past, that work should not be all for nothing in the present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    But Battlebeard, how do we know you aren't a pleb so to speak? Honestly, when someone is forming a group for M+ the only information they are given is your ilv and M+ score (or r.io score if you have the addon). That's it. No history from previous expansions, no achievement linking, nothing else that would show that you're not a pleb.

    Also factor in that you're not the only person applying for a group. There could be other players competing for a spot and if they have a higher score then odds are likely that they might be favored over you. Like you said, folks don't want to play with plebs so to speak and a person with zero score might be a pleb.

    Granted with boosting, a person with a high score might also be a pleb which is why players now also look at history of completed dungeons as a factor as well. Under 10 completed dungeons at the +15 level? Could be a boost... over 50 completed dungeons at the +15 level? Probably not a boost.


    Honestly, if score such a limiting factor (which I don't think it is) then it's all the more reason to find communities/guilds of folks who do M+ regularly and form up premades instead of doing the PuG thing. Or at the very least, do the community/guild premades until you reach a certain threshold then venture back into PuGs.

    You don't, but there is no guarantee the guy with current experience isn't a pleb either, especially with all the boost runs. It's about chosing the right candidate and I think the chosing process has escalated completely in this game. It's a nightmare for new or returning players, it's no wonder Classic became so huge, it's far more involving.

  8. #248
    Pandaren Monk Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    It's the oldest dilemma there is, applied to work IRL too. Everyone demanding experience to get the job, but you can't get experience without a job. An endless loop that very few managed to get out of.
    It's an easy loop to get out of. Just do the dungeon grind or make friends with other players and leap frog the grind. Outside of boosting, those are realistically your only options if you still want to play WoW.


    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I DO feel a little entitled to get back into dungeons now!
    Yeah, I don't think that argument is going to win over anybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    People need to start taking chances on people and to start value the right accomplishments. This is not just about me, and it's not some brag, but if you worked hard in the past, that work should not be all for nothing in the present.
    And what are the right accomplishments? How does doing a +25 in Court of Stars back during Legion in time with BiS gear and overpowered Artifact (late in legion) equate to any kind of skill/knowledge for doing a current Halls of Atonement +10 key with the new Storming affix and Tormented affix?

    Does the route knowledge of Court of Stars help you with the route you should take in Halls? Legion didn't even have a Storming affix so how do you handle that mechanic? Tormented (the seasonal affix) is also new to this season of SL M+. But beyond just dungeon knowledge, let's talk about class knowledge:

    You do realize that nearly every spec in WoW has changed from Legion to Shadowlands right? Some artifact powers have been completely removed, some rolled into talents or baseline. How can you claim "mastery" over a spec that you haven't played as regularly since Legion?

    But more important to that question is how in the world will a group leader even know? There's no interface to lookup a character's history in game. Moreover, I don't think PuG leaders want to spend the time necessary to do all that research.


    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    You don't, but there is no guarantee the guy with current experience isn't a pleb either, especially with all the boost runs.
    Yes there is a simple test to see if someone is boosted. Look at their historical runs and number of runs completed in time over the course of the season.

    A player who jumped to 2.5k+ in a 2 weeks with only sub 10 dungeons completed in time for bracket +15 is considerably more likely to be boosted than say a player who gradually built their 2.5k+ score over several weeks and not only has 30+ dungeons done in time for bracket +15 but also similar number of dungeons completed in time for +10-14 bracket.

    The r.io addon shows this so folks can see at a glance without having to do a lot of outside the game research.


    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    It's about chosing the right candidate and I think the chosing process has escalated completely in this game. It's a nightmare for new or returning players, it's no wonder Classic became so huge, it's far more involving.

    And how would you go about choosing players? Remember you're currently limited with the information that wow (in-game) provides. Back in the day it was Gearscore, then achievement linking (until that fake achievement link addon became popular), and now it's r.io or M+ score.

    If there was a better way, I'm sure someone would have thought it up and implemented it by now.
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  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by odamienskii View Post
    Il tell you the reason, because by making classes unbalanced blizzard is creating playable content without having to do anything, if you want to be viable in m+ you have to reroll and spend x amount of hours gearing your new toon, it also gives the bad players the opportunity to be amongst the good players, which is what blizzard has been striving to achieve since wotlk, something that is incredibly unhealthy for the state of the game, which shows by expansion on expansion how subs have shrunk, the first time they fully achieve a game where all the bads are up with the goods and look what we have....unsubs. fucktons of unsubs.
    How can people say stuff like this when literally all 36 specs in the game have timed a +25 or higher.

    “Balance” can always be better, but every spec can do 99.9% of the content in this game.

    The reason people can be picky though is due to cross realm. The applicant pool is so massive their is no downside to waiting. And you’ll probably never see that person again anyway.

    The flip side of accessibility.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    How can people say stuff like this when literally all 36 specs in the game have timed a +25 or higher.

    “Balance” can always be better, but every spec can do 99.9% of the content in this game.

    The reason people can be picky though is due to cross realm. The applicant pool is so massive their is no downside to waiting. And you’ll probably never see that person again anyway.

    The flip side of accessibility.
    I hate the game and everything about it, they have came so far away from what made wow great that its not wow at all. something different entirely just with the same name.

  11. #251
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    It's an easy loop to get out of. Just do the dungeon grind or make friends with other players and leap frog the grind. Outside of boosting, those are realistically your only options if you still want to play WoW.




    Yeah, I don't think that argument is going to win over anybody.



    And what are the right accomplishments? How does doing a +25 in Court of Stars back during Legion in time with BiS gear and overpowered Artifact (late in legion) equate to any kind of skill/knowledge for doing a current Halls of Atonement +10 key with the new Storming affix and Tormented affix?

    Does the route knowledge of Court of Stars help you with the route you should take in Halls? Legion didn't even have a Storming affix so how do you handle that mechanic? Tormented (the seasonal affix) is also new to this season of SL M+. But beyond just dungeon knowledge, let's talk about class knowledge:

    You do realize that nearly every spec in WoW has changed from Legion to Shadowlands right? Some artifact powers have been completely removed, some rolled into talents or baseline. How can you claim "mastery" over a spec that you haven't played as regularly since Legion?

    But more important to that question is how in the world will a group leader even know? There's no interface to lookup a character's history in game. Moreover, I don't think PuG leaders want to spend the time necessary to do all that research.




    Yes there is a simple test to see if someone is boosted. Look at their historical runs and number of runs completed in time over the course of the season.

    A player who jumped to 2.5k+ in a 2 weeks with only sub 10 dungeons completed in time for bracket +15 is considerably more likely to be boosted than say a player who gradually built their 2.5k+ score over several weeks and not only has 30+ dungeons done in time for bracket +15 but also similar number of dungeons completed in time for +10-14 bracket.

    The r.io addon shows this so folks can see at a glance without having to do a lot of outside the game research.





    And how would you go about choosing players? Remember you're currently limited with the information that wow (in-game) provides. Back in the day it was Gearscore, then achievement linking (until that fake achievement link addon became popular), and now it's r.io or M+ score.

    If there was a better way, I'm sure someone would have thought it up and implemented it by now.
    It's not about what dungeon it is. A 25 CoS in Legion DOES matter, not cause of the dungeon, but the pressure/skill of performing at a +25. Learning the dungeons take 0 time in comparison, while mastering a +25 can take months, even years to build up that skill. Hence why "once a mythic raider, always a mythic raider" applies. Once you reach the level of a mythic raider, which require general skill, alertness, reactions etc, you can handle ANY new boss tactic, throughout any expansion. I am not saying I am there personally, but I am a Heroic Raider, once I get an Ahead of the Curve, I have the skill to get them all, it's the same principle.

    And this applies to M+. The new affixes and the new dungeon designs is a very minor part of what it takes to do a +20 nowadays as an example.

    The point is, and I am not saying this as a personal thing, but ANY Cutting Edge achievement in the past SHOULD matter more than the current Ahead of The Curve as an example, and any previous +25 should matter more than lets say a +15 nowadays. Performance in WoW is timeless, you gotta learn the new tactics, but once you shown you can handle a certain level of difficulty, you won't suddenly get bad the next expansion, so old experience should matter FAR more than it does today.

  12. #252
    Pandaren Monk Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    It's not about what dungeon it is. A 25 CoS in Legion DOES matter, not cause of the dungeon, but the pressure/skill of performing at a +25. Learning the dungeons take 0 time in comparison, while mastering a +25 can take months, even years to build up that skill. Hence why "once a mythic raider, always a mythic raider" applies. Once you reach the level of a mythic raider, which require general skill, alertness, reactions etc, you can handle ANY new boss tactic, throughout any expansion. I am not saying I am there personally, but I am a Heroic Raider, once I get an Ahead of the Curve, I have the skill to get them all, it's the same principle.

    And this applies to M+. The new affixes and the new dungeon designs is a very minor part of what it takes to do a +20 nowadays as an example.

    The point is, and I am not saying this as a personal thing, but ANY Cutting Edge achievement in the past SHOULD matter more than the current Ahead of The Curve as an example, and any previous +25 should matter more than lets say a +15 nowadays. Performance in WoW is timeless, you gotta learn the new tactics, but once you shown you can handle a certain level of difficulty, you won't suddenly get bad the next expansion, so old experience should matter FAR more than it does today.
    Honestly it's a matter of scale.

    Yes if you were a mythic raider in the past then you can probably do mythic raiding now but only after learning the new mechanics and strategies/tactics to counter them. So in reference to say interviewing for a mythic raiding slot then sure that works in your favor.

    However, if we're looking at just the micro event: I need to fill out this group to run a high key now. Your lack of knowledge and experience in the current dungeon is limiting you. It's not that you can't learn them or eventually know how to handle them but in the case of right now, a group leader would rather take someone who is experienced with the current dungeon than someone who has years of prior experience but zero current experience in this particular dungeon.

    For instance, if you're applying to a pre-made team that is going to be running high keys (or competing in the MDI) then yeah the +25 done in Legion might be appealing. Learning the current set of dungeons and affixes isn't a big deal because that group will be tackling the highest keys and will be running practice keys over and over again.

    But that's not a PuG group. In a PuG group, (generally) leaders want players who are ready to go now as in experienced in the current dungeon, current affixes and the current strategies. Especially when the probability of a random PuG group running with the same people again are very low.
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  13. #253
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Honestly it's a matter of scale.

    Yes if you were a mythic raider in the past then you can probably do mythic raiding now but only after learning the new mechanics and strategies/tactics to counter them. So in reference to say interviewing for a mythic raiding slot then sure that works in your favor.

    However, if we're looking at just the micro event: I need to fill out this group to run a high key now. Your lack of knowledge and experience in the current dungeon is limiting you. It's not that you can't learn them or eventually know how to handle them but in the case of right now, a group leader would rather take someone who is experienced with the current dungeon than someone who has years of prior experience but zero current experience in this particular dungeon.

    For instance, if you're applying to a pre-made team that is going to be running high keys (or competing in the MDI) then yeah the +25 done in Legion might be appealing. Learning the current set of dungeons and affixes isn't a big deal because that group will be tackling the highest keys and will be running practice keys over and over again.

    But that's not a PuG group. In a PuG group, (generally) leaders want players who are ready to go now as in experienced in the current dungeon, current affixes and the current strategies. Especially when the probability of a random PuG group running with the same people again are very low.

    Yes, you surely state the way the game works now, and that's the point, it sucks. Pugging doesn't have to be hell, but it is, because people are lazy and because the game allows them to do the things they do now. Hence why we desperately need a queue for M+, at least up to +10 or so.

  14. #254
    be4 we even consider adding a queue to it we need some actual class balance in the m+ scene once that si acheived then we can talk about a queue for it

  15. #255
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I said it. When I was playing WoW I first experienced M+ when I joined a M0. Didn't think it was that bad but then once I got up around 8-10 I noticed finding groups became painful. Bare in mind I was a frost mage and at the start of 9.0 after pre-launch nerfs Frost Mages were dookie. Fire wasn't but man I really really hate twitchy gameplay.

    Being honest here--there's no good logical reason from my perspective as to why this doesn't happen. I know people will all say comp comp comp--my response is that the burden of responsibility for balancing the game so that all specs, and all classes are viable with one another is a dev issue, and any deviation from that statement is you as a paying customer being okay with a subpar product.

    Hire some actuaries to balance your numbers and let players connect with one another automatically. The insistence on Premade grouping is so dated and not helpful to anyone.
    A queue that has MMR.

    Or you'll just have a system where only 1 type of playing is queuing hahahahaha
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  16. #256
    Best to look for a group with RIO soon or Mythic+ rating>

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