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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I'd argue that you can have harder content, just divorce the rewards from power progression and have them solely be cosmetic. Otherwise, this game will continue to bleed players because of strict adherence to systems that let players prey upon other players.
    So go back to raid or die? Yeah thats worked out so well in the past.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I said it. When I was playing WoW I first experienced M+ when I joined a M0. Didn't think it was that bad but then once I got up around 8-10 I noticed finding groups became painful. Bare in mind I was a frost mage and at the start of 9.0 after pre-launch nerfs Frost Mages were dookie. Fire wasn't but man I really really hate twitchy gameplay.

    Being honest here--there's no good logical reason from my perspective as to why this doesn't happen. I know people will all say comp comp comp--my response is that the burden of responsibility for balancing the game so that all specs, and all classes are viable with one another is a dev issue, and any deviation from that statement is you as a paying customer being okay with a subpar product.

    Hire some actuaries to balance your numbers and let players connect with one another automatically. The insistence on Premade grouping is so dated and not helpful to anyone.
    Yes it is, because this is a MMO and should be about communication and meeting people. Make friends, run m+ with them. Pugging in general is horrible, especially in lower keys. Adding an lfg queue to this would only make things way worse. Want people who do 2k dps, fail at every mechanic, leave in the middle of the key all the time? Yeah, than add lfg queue.
    Almost all of the mediocre or decent people wouldn't even use it, because you have no control over the grp which is just plain stupid. And this is not about special comps, comps do not matter before you do high keys. And +15 are not "high". You would queue up for lfg m+ several times and then open a thread on how shitty it is and how everyone is just flaming each other, leaving keys etc...

    One reason because the game got worse was that blizz had to come up with connected servers, sharding, lfg etc which took much of the community aspect out of the game. Why are you actually afraid of joining one of the hundreds of communities which do also lower content? Why are you too afraid or too lazy to make online friends you can play with? Or join a guild to do so?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    So go back to raid or die? Yeah thats worked out so well in the past.
    Honestly, my system would be:

    2 raid difficulties- Normal/Heroic

    Raids no longer have a story attached that way you can toss LFR. Only normal drops power progression gear and Heroic has cosmetics/titles/more fights.

    M+ Drops gear but only up to 10 after 10 cosmetics, titles, and mats for a new profession that's built on houses, and mogs.

    M+ has a queue, and World Quests, if you grind enough, can give badges that'll yield Normal/M+ gear but the grind will be longer and I'd make it so it's inefficient to do those grinds for gear if you can raid/M+.

    Everyone is on the same footing and then cosmetics are the top-end items. That way the people who enjoy raiding will still enjoy raiding but it'll be divorced from the power they have.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    The insistence on Premade grouping is so dated and not helpful to anyone.
    Please stop speaking for everyone. Premade grouping works great for me and I like it. If it doesn't work for you - it's not an 'everyone' issue - it's a 'you' issue.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    Honestly, my system would be:

    2 raid difficulties- Normal/Heroic

    Raids no longer have a story attached that way you can toss LFR. Only normal drops power progression gear and Heroic has cosmetics/titles/more fights.

    M+ Drops gear but only up to 10 after 10 cosmetics, titles, and mats for a new profession that's built on houses, and mogs.

    M+ has a queue, and World Quests, if you grind enough, can give badges that'll yield Normal/M+ gear but the grind will be longer and I'd make it so it's inefficient to do those grinds for gear if you can raid/M+.

    Everyone is on the same footing and then cosmetics are the top-end items. That way the people who enjoy raiding will still enjoy raiding but it'll be divorced from the power they have.
    It sounds like you should play a different game.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Vitinariy View Post
    Please stop speaking for everyone. Premade grouping works great for me and I like it. If it doesn't work for you - it's not an 'everyone' issue - it's a 'you' issue.
    Again I clarified this--I do not support removing LFG at all. Premades need to happen they're just as valid as pugging. Both will be offered as options.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    It sounds like you should play a different game.
    Shame on me for voicing opinions.

  7. #27
    How about they update the LFG ui first? It's abominable.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    How about they update the LFG ui first? It's abominable.
    I mean ya--I'd include that in a patch too. At least let me look for people running the keys I want to run.

    But I'd rather them scrap the key system and try again.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    Honestly, my system would be:

    2 raid difficulties- Normal/Heroic

    Raids no longer have a story attached that way you can toss LFR. Only normal drops power progression gear and Heroic has cosmetics/titles/more fights.

    M+ Drops gear but only up to 10 after 10 cosmetics, titles, and mats for a new profession that's built on houses, and mogs.

    M+ has a queue, and World Quests, if you grind enough, can give badges that'll yield Normal/M+ gear but the grind will be longer and I'd make it so it's inefficient to do those grinds for gear if you can raid/M+.

    Everyone is on the same footing and then cosmetics are the top-end items. That way the people who enjoy raiding will still enjoy raiding but it'll be divorced from the power they have.
    So not only do you want to kill m+ but also raiding lol

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    So not only do you want to kill m+ but also raiding lol
    Mind explaining how this would cause players to leave? Not sure how that happens here unless you're overinflating a population.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I said it. When I was playing WoW I first experienced M+ when I joined a M0. Didn't think it was that bad but then once I got up around 8-10 I noticed finding groups became painful. Bare in mind I was a frost mage and at the start of 9.0 after pre-launch nerfs Frost Mages were dookie. Fire wasn't but man I really really hate twitchy gameplay.

    Being honest here--there's no good logical reason from my perspective as to why this doesn't happen. I know people will all say comp comp comp--my response is that the burden of responsibility for balancing the game so that all specs, and all classes are viable with one another is a dev issue, and any deviation from that statement is you as a paying customer being okay with a subpar product.

    Hire some actuaries to balance your numbers and let players connect with one another automatically. The insistence on Premade grouping is so dated and not helpful to anyone.
    Queue would not work.

    However comps are the issue and that makes it dumb. Certain classes and or certain specs are just simply not invited to anything higher then a 9 for the most part. So they (blizzard) would need to balance all classes and specs so it doesnt really matter what class comes, you just need 3 dps, 1 tank and 1 healers and they need to perform well. However that will never happen! When has it happened? Blizzard has never been able to balance, so you will just need to FOTM or something playable for M+ if thats what your doing.

    I had to switch from fury war to fire mage to get shadowlands key master season one achieve completed via all pugs. Even tho my fury war was better geared, did more overall damage, that did not matter, its dumb. Do what everyone else has done, quit the game and find a new one. I heard Endwalker is alright and that Elden Ring is coming out in feb, looks fun, also dying light 2.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Goat7 View Post
    Queue would not work.

    However comps are the issue and that makes it dumb. Certain classes and or certain specs are just simply not invited to anything higher then a 9 for the most part. So they (blizzard) would need to balance all classes and specs so it doesnt really matter what class comes, you just need 3 dps, 1 tank and 1 healers and they need to perform well. However that will never happen! When has it happened? Blizzard has never been able to balance, so you will just need to FOTM or something playable for M+ if thats what your doing.

    I had to switch from fury war to fire mage to get shadowlands key master season one achieve completed via all pugs. Even tho my fury war was better geared, did more overall damage, that did not matter, its dumb. Do what everyone else has done, quit the game and find a new one. I heard Endwalker is alright and that Elden Ring is coming out in feb, looks fun, also dying light 2.
    I mean I fully agree with your sentiment here. Literally, it's just accepted bad balancing because it is what it is. Lol. I could never imagine a lot people in real life acting like that if McDonalds did something like Blizzard does with balancing.

  13. #33
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    Mind explaining how this would cause players to leave? Not sure how that happens here unless you're overinflating a population.
    What do you think is going to happen with heroic raiding when mythic is put aside?

    You're going to see every single guild at 10/10M right now just disappear. Thats 1400 guilds right now. Or roughly 28.000 people.

    That may not seem like much, but what they will take with them is a vast amount of knowledge of the game. People idolize those players, because that's where they want to be or want to go. Most players want to progress to a higher stage. So when those players leave, they will take with them their fans, their (streaming?) communities.. and people will see them leave in droves.

    How do you think the rest of the playerbase would respond to that? In rejoice? I sincerely doubt it.
    More than likely it would just lead to a considerable portion of the playerbase laying down their arms.

  14. #34
    Not possible in a game where people with the performance gradient we have in WoW. If you pug keys you will routinely see people in 250+ gear doing half the damage of someone else in the same gear. And that's not even mentioning dungeon knowledge/interrupts etc.

    Pug your own key. It sounds like a cliche but it really is that easy. If you list a 15+ people will join it within a few minutes and you can even be reasonably selective.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    What do you think is going to happen with heroic raiding when mythic is put aside?

    You're going to see every single guild at 10/10M right now just disappear. Thats 1400 guilds right now. Or roughly 28.000 people.

    That may not seem like much, but what they will take with them is a vast amount of knowledge of the game. People idolize those players, because that's where they want to be or want to go. Most players want to progress to a higher stage. So when those players leave, they will take with them their fans, their (streaming?) communities.. and people will see them leave in droves.

    How do you think the rest of the playerbase would respond to that? In rejoice? I sincerely doubt it.
    More than likely it would just lead to a considerable portion of the playerbase laying down their arms.
    Basically you're saying that people worship these raiders? Is that what're pointing out?

    I mean WoW has already lost a ton of casual players and that's not any concern at all to you?

    This doomsday scenario is like imagin if Miley Cyrus stopped performing the entire music industry would collapse over night!

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    Basically you're saying that people worship these raiders? Is that what're pointing out?

    I mean WoW has already lost a ton of casual players and that's not any concern at all to you?
    They are of concern to us all. But never at the expense of others.
    There should be content in the game for everyone, that doesn't have to be raid or m+ content. Actually.. it probably shouldn't be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    This doomsday scenario is like imagin if Miley Cyrus stopped performing the entire music industry would collapse over night!
    No, that would be if some middle of the pack 10/10 guild stopped playing. What you're suggesting is to abolish the planet of all its studios because you think artists are too good at their job and you can't break through.

  17. #37
    I think a queue for anything up to +15 (or wherever they draw the gear upgrade cap) would be good, but you'll have to remove keys and timers from the equation. Replace players that leave only with other players from the queue. It would make the whole thing so much more chill. Give a +16 key if you happen to do a 15 in time.

    Have a requirement of completing previous levels and a predetermined ilvl limit, that get removed if you're a full party of 5.

    People say this won't work, but what are you doing now, other than doing this manually? You don't know those randoms. And with no timer, you can use CC if you've bitten off more than you can chew.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    They are of concern to us all. But never at the expense of others.
    There should be content in the game for everyone, that doesn't have to be raid or m+ content. Actually.. it probably shouldn't be.
    But the problem here is that there is already "at expense" and it cost more than 28,000 players. You hand wave that off as if they never mattered or that they weren't important. Yet time and time again we see people leave WoW and nothing has changed. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.



    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    No, that would be if some middle of the pack 10/10 guild stopped playing. What you're suggesting is to abolish the planet of all its studios because you think artists are too good at their job and you can't break through.
    If the system has led to a game that used to boast about sub numbers, to a game that now boasts about MAUs which combine all games on their platform, surely you can realize the old system hasn't improved or gotten better.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    Mind explaining how this would cause players to leave? Not sure how that happens here unless you're overinflating a population.
    Skill distribution in the player base is gargantuan. The range is so much more than just two raid difficulties. It is even more than 4 that's why Blizzard has autonerfing through gear and constantly monitors completion rates and nerfs raids regularly. Having fewer raid difficulties will make fewer people happy. What do you think all the mythic raiders will do who now clear heroic in the first or second week? Do you think they will stay and farm heroic for half a year after roflstomping it? You could tune your now highest heroic more like mythic is now but then answer me this: what do you think all the heroic raiders will do who then meet brick walls they can't overcome? Nope, they will stop raiding, simple as that.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Skill distribution in the player base is gargantuan. The range is so much more than just two raid difficulties. It is even more than 4 that's why Blizzard has autonerfing through gear and constantly monitors completion rates and nerfs raids regularly. Having fewer raid difficulties will make fewer people happy. What do you think all the mythic raiders will do who now clear heroic in the first or second week? Do you think they will stay and farm heroic for half a year after roflstomping it? You could tune your now highest heroic more like mythic is now but then answer me this: what do you think all the heroic raiders will do who then meet brick walls they can't overcome? Nope, they will stop raiding, simple as that.
    I mean again I don't know why we're concerned with a small population of players. You already had players leave and it gets treated like nothing, but the second we stop and consider mythic raiders leaving it's like every one's hair is on fire.

    This fear comes from where, there's not a single time that something happened to them to leave en masse, but consistently throughout WoW's history they made the game harder, and more strict about grouping, and players left then they undo those decisions and make the game have "catch-up" mechanics and we act as if that brings back 90% when we all don't have evidence to show who does or doesn't return. Human nature would indicate most do not return.

    Put another way you're all so worried about a drop in the bucket because you're saying that drop is worth more than the water already in the bucket even though you have a liter in there.
    Last edited by Miffinat0r; 2022-01-06 at 04:11 PM.

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