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  1. #1

    M+ Needs a Queue

    I said it. When I was playing WoW I first experienced M+ when I joined a M0. Didn't think it was that bad but then once I got up around 8-10 I noticed finding groups became painful. Bare in mind I was a frost mage and at the start of 9.0 after pre-launch nerfs Frost Mages were dookie. Fire wasn't but man I really really hate twitchy gameplay.

    Being honest here--there's no good logical reason from my perspective as to why this doesn't happen. I know people will all say comp comp comp--my response is that the burden of responsibility for balancing the game so that all specs, and all classes are viable with one another is a dev issue, and any deviation from that statement is you as a paying customer being okay with a subpar product.

    Hire some actuaries to balance your numbers and let players connect with one another automatically. The insistence on Premade grouping is so dated and not helpful to anyone.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I said it. When I was playing WoW I first experienced M+ when I joined a M0. Didn't think it was that bad but then once I got up around 8-10 I noticed finding groups became painful. Bare in mind I was a frost mage and at the start of 9.0 after pre-launch nerfs Frost Mages were dookie. Fire wasn't but man I really really hate twitchy gameplay.

    Being honest here--there's no good logical reason from my perspective as to why this doesn't happen. I know people will all say comp comp comp--my response is that the burden of responsibility for balancing the game so that all specs, and all classes are viable with one another is a dev issue, and any deviation from that statement is you as a paying customer being okay with a subpar product.

    Hire some actuaries to balance your numbers and let players connect with one another automatically. The insistence on Premade grouping is so dated and not helpful to anyone.
    The system would need to be revamped to make this work. As it stands, queueing up to have someone drop after one bad pull and nuke your key would feel insanely bad.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  3. #3
    Elemental Lord
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    How about a queue for M0 first

  4. #4
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    You can't really be serious, this is a troll right?

    Automated M+ doesn't work because not everyone is capable of doing it
    Its like asking for LFR for heroic and mythic raids, they already have a hard time completing LFR

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The system would need to be revamped to make this work. As it stands, queueing up to have someone drop after one bad pull and nuke your key would feel insanely bad.
    I guess in envisioning this thing the key system would be thrown out. You can only queue for keys that are +/- 2 Difficutlies and completing any - of where you are would count as a third to clear the higher key so you're good for an 8 and if you can complete say 3 6's and time them then you move on. Something like that.

    The key system is a very very bad idea and it's built toward abuse of players on players.

  6. #6
    You can already queue for dungeons, and they are pretty balanced for all specs. You have to hit the key I for the group finder, then you can pick the difficulty and your preferred role etc. Sometimes you have to wait long for DD roles but that's about it.

  7. #7
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I guess in envisioning this thing the key system would be thrown out. You can only queue for keys that are +/- 2 Difficutlies and completing any - of where you are would count as a third to clear the higher key so you're good for an 8 and if you can complete say 3 6's and time them then you move on. Something like that.

    The key system is a very very bad idea and it's built toward abuse of players on players.
    And how would you envision a system like that would work for +25 and higher keys? There would be no queue, it would just be dead because the amount of people that can do those keys are few and far between. There is a reason people join guilds and seek out to make friends with common goals. Because you couldn't get this any other way. The entire automation system messed with this before and I don't like the idea of repeating mistakes from the past.


    If anything we should find more ways to bring people together, absolutely. But automating content is definitely not one of them.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    And how would you envision a system like that would work for +25 and higher keys?
    Typically if you're 25+ you're running in a premade group or you have a pool of players you know who do that. You even go on to admit that. Not sure how a queue would harm you. Largely this problem of group finding exists for players who are in M2-10 usually.


    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    There would be no queue, it would just be dead because the amount of people that can do those keys are few and far between. There is a reason people join guilds and seek out to make friends with common goals. Because you couldn't get this any other way. The entire automation system messed with this before and I don't like the idea of repeating mistakes from the past.
    What mistake from the past? Everyone cites Cata as the mistake, but every MMORPG now and every multiplayer game now revolves around matchmaking. From there you meet people and play with them when they're on. I'm sorry but from the way I see it the dated model of premade advertising being the only means of grouping for this content is bad and it lends itself to abusive behavior from bad actors.


    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    If anything we should find more ways to bring people together, absolutely. But automating content is definitely not one of them.
    Completely disagree. This is a fear of technology. Full stop.

  9. #9
    At this point there is no hope of getting a community feel back into the game anyways. M+ is already quite rng what you get unless you search for only top ratings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    And how would you envision a system like that would work for +25 and higher keys? There would be no queue, it would just be dead because the amount of people that can do those keys are few and far between. There is a reason people join guilds and seek out to make friends with common goals. Because you couldn't get this any other way. The entire automation system messed with this before and I don't like the idea of repeating mistakes from the past.
    Tbh really high keys are never done through LFG. At least I will never do that, it's quite easy to get high rating for you to seem you know what you are doing only to find out you got boosted or did it on an extremely easy weeks with no real mechanics to worry. Anyone who really cares about their rating would find themselves a team or a community and the LFG system doesn't work for that already.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    You can't really be serious, this is a troll right?

    Automated M+ doesn't work because not everyone is capable of doing it
    Its like asking for LFR for heroic and mythic raids, they already have a hard time completing LFR
    They could make it work. Make it rating based. Matchmaking more or less. You can only queue with other people your same rating. If a 2000 player use the tool and queue with other 2000 rated players. chances are that it will work just fine. Add in rewards to incentivise finishing even depeleted keys and many of the people leaving would stop. Heavily punish people leaving early aswell, and that behaviour will go down. Won't fix all the issues. but will fix many to a point where it could it work.

    They can make it work. But it would need a lot of thought and effort

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    It takes all of 5 minutes to get a group together. Stop being lazy and run your own keys.
    Yea...if you're a tank or healer lol.

  12. #12
    Yeah, why not. Wouldn't affect me. May even be convenient for me for less geared alts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    It takes all of 5 minutes to get a group together. Stop being lazy and run your own keys.
    This isn't an argument against anything. If it helps some and doesn't make it worse for others, then why not.
    "Being lazy" is how we developed, we won't accept what we already have as enough.

    You can walk everywhere, stop being lazy and requesting a less time and effort solution, like a car or public transportation.

  13. #13
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    Typically if you're 25+ you're running in a premade group or you have a pool of players you know who do that. You even go on to admit that. Not sure how a queue would harm you. Largely this problem of group finding exists for players who are in M2-10 usually.
    You were suggesting for the traditional system to be abolished and replaced with a new one so that would no longer be possible.

    I don't really care if they add a matchmaking function of top of the pre-existing systems, although I don't really think its worth the time to make it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Tbh really high keys are never done through LFG.
    Yeah they are. Not the very tippety top but you can do 26 in LFG

    Maybe you can't see them though
    Last edited by Evolixe; 2022-01-06 at 02:52 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    You were suggesting for the traditional system to be abolished and replaced with a new one so that would no longer be possible.

    I don't really care if they add a matchmaking function of top of the pre-existing systems, although I don't really think its worth the time to make it.



    Yeah they are. Not the very tippety top but you can do 26 in LFG

    Maybe you can't see them though
    I don't think I said abolish premades. But let me be clear here: Premade LFG won't go anywhere, it'll just have to compete with a queue.

  15. #15
    For the love of the Light no, please no.

    I was tanking a +6 PF on a prot pala trash alt yesterday and got into a group of players at roughly +6 level ilvl and score wise. You'd think that after a year of dungeons people would halfway know the dungeons. Some hairy situation throughout but whatever, that's what you get when signing up for +6. Then at the endboss... first wave of tentacles and 3 dudes dead. Luckily the other survivor was a ret so we just twomanned it.

    Opening m+ up for auto queues will only lead to m+ being nerfed into the ground just like lfr is. You can't have harder content without the ability to choose who to run it with.

    If you want auto queues just run normal/heroic. Or run your own key and invite the first 4 players queuing up, tell us how that went later.

  16. #16
    Automated High End content is a recipe for disaster.
    For this to remotely work you would need to make away with keys.

    Without keys you have three options to be to do a m+:

    Option 1: Everything is unrestricted - you can join/lead any level or m+ for any dungeon. Pretty much what we have atm for anyone joining a key (you can ding 60 and go right to a +10 or +15 or whatever, just pending aproval from party leader)

    Option 2: You can only join/create up to the level you cleared, needing to clear the previous level X amount of times before unlocking the next level (can either be 1 clear, or 3 or 10 or whatever arbitrary number of clears you make it to be), this can either be done to each dungeon or if you can do a clear a +10 for example you can do all +10.

    Option 3: You get a mix of both previous options, where to lead you need to have cleared to what you are planning to do, but to join you can to whaever you want, or vice versa.

    If you then add an automated group creation to these options what will most likely happen is that after a certain threshold the nature of the queue will start to develop problems. Either be it because you got 'unlucky' with your random group and you don't have Bloodlust or a certain CC that you need, or a rogue / warlock / whatever to perform a skip. You need a specific type of damage for the dungeon you're running (ST, AOE, burst) and none of the specs you're paired with have it.
    One likely outcome is that an add-on / third party resource like raider.io is implemented to track if you done what dungeons by queue or with a premede group.
    And that will turn into a LFR M+ vs the real M+ problem.

  17. #17
    I would never use it even one time, but if others want to sure I guess.

    As long as the old system remains alongside it, I wouldn't care.

    Because personally I'm not joining a queue where I cannot see/ask the spec, covenant, IO of my team beforehand.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    For the love of the Light no, please no.

    I was tanking a +6 PF on a prot pala trash alt yesterday and got into a group of players at roughly +6 level ilvl and score wise. You'd think that after a year of dungeons people would halfway know the dungeons. Some hairy situation throughout but whatever, that's what you get when signing up for +6. Then at the endboss... first wave of tentacles and 3 dudes dead. Luckily the other survivor was a ret so we just twomanned it.

    Opening m+ up for auto queues will only lead to m+ being nerfed into the ground just like lfr is. You can't have harder content without the ability to choose who to run it with.

    If you want auto queues just run normal/heroic. Or run your own key and invite the first 4 players queuing up, tell us how that went later.
    I'd argue that you can have harder content, just divorce the rewards from power progression and have them solely be cosmetic. Otherwise, this game will continue to bleed players because of strict adherence to systems that let players prey upon other players.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I said it. When I was playing WoW I first experienced M+ when I joined a M0. Didn't think it was that bad but then once I got up around 8-10 I noticed finding groups became painful. Bare in mind I was a frost mage and at the start of 9.0 after pre-launch nerfs Frost Mages were dookie. Fire wasn't but man I really really hate twitchy gameplay.

    Being honest here--there's no good logical reason from my perspective as to why this doesn't happen. I know people will all say comp comp comp--my response is that the burden of responsibility for balancing the game so that all specs, and all classes are viable with one another is a dev issue, and any deviation from that statement is you as a paying customer being okay with a subpar product.

    Hire some actuaries to balance your numbers and let players connect with one another automatically. The insistence on Premade grouping is so dated and not helpful to anyone.
    Yes it is, because this is a MMO and should be about communication and meeting people. Make friends, run m+ with them. Pugging in general is horrible, especially in lower keys. Adding an lfg queue to this would only make things way worse. Want people who do 2k dps, fail at every mechanic, leave in the middle of the key all the time? Yeah, than add lfg queue.
    Almost all of the mediocre or decent people wouldn't even use it, because you have no control over the grp which is just plain stupid. And this is not about special comps, comps do not matter before you do high keys. And +15 are not "high". You would queue up for lfg m+ several times and then open a thread on how shitty it is and how everyone is just flaming each other, leaving keys etc...

    One reason because the game got worse was that blizz had to come up with connected servers, sharding, lfg etc which took much of the community aspect out of the game. Why are you actually afraid of joining one of the hundreds of communities which do also lower content? Why are you too afraid or too lazy to make online friends you can play with? Or join a guild to do so?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    So go back to raid or die? Yeah thats worked out so well in the past.
    Honestly, my system would be:

    2 raid difficulties- Normal/Heroic

    Raids no longer have a story attached that way you can toss LFR. Only normal drops power progression gear and Heroic has cosmetics/titles/more fights.

    M+ Drops gear but only up to 10 after 10 cosmetics, titles, and mats for a new profession that's built on houses, and mogs.

    M+ has a queue, and World Quests, if you grind enough, can give badges that'll yield Normal/M+ gear but the grind will be longer and I'd make it so it's inefficient to do those grinds for gear if you can raid/M+.

    Everyone is on the same footing and then cosmetics are the top-end items. That way the people who enjoy raiding will still enjoy raiding but it'll be divorced from the power they have.

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