M+ Needs a Queue

[Flarelaine]

I guess in envisioning this thing the key system would be thrown out.

Good news! You can run dungeons without keys as it is and there is even a queue for that already!

[Morssoe]

Adding que for m+ would be bad for boosting services. They made wow community meta slaves and fear of failing so no one would want to try anything by themselves.

[Xalvia]

Worst idea ever.

[Alroxas]

Anything up to about +5 should be queueable,

Why +5? Why not +10? Or +15 or +20? It seems like a slippery slope. Also there's no guarantee that fresh players could do up to +5 without any prior experience in these dungeons at the mythic difficulty (even M+0).

The new fight mechanics are significantly different enough. Case in point: Grand Proctor Beryllia in Sanguine Depths is very different the first time you do her on Mythic compared to Heroic (or lower) difficulties.

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Just put a MMR system tied to it and "everyone" will be happy. People love ranking these days!

On one hand, that's easier said than done. After all how do you factor utility into throughput? Here's a <insert spec> that is doing 99% of his specs potential damage (as simcraft reports) but does ZERO interrupts and never uses any utility abilities to help the group compared to another similar spec player who is only at 75% of specs potential damage but hits interrupts and uses utility abilities to help the group when needed. Which has the higher MMR?

On the other hand, doesn't r.io/M+ score kind of provide a ranking number for players to use as a potential metric for measuring skill/knowledge of a potential player? Yes there is boosting involved so don't solely rely on r.io/M+ score but also factor in how many dungeons are finished in time for the bracket of dungeons you're doing as well (the r.io addon provides this info).

[crusadernero]

Why +5? Why not +10? Or +15 or +20? It seems like a slippery slope. Also there's no guarantee that fresh players could do up to +5 without any prior experience in these dungeons at the mythic difficulty (even M+0).

The new fight mechanics are significantly different enough. Case in point: Grand Proctor Beryllia in Sanguine Depths is very different the first time you do her on Mythic compared to Heroic (or lower) difficulties.

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On one hand, that's easier said than done. After all how do you factor utility into throughput? Here's a <insert spec> that is doing 99% of his specs potential damage (as simcraft reports) but does ZERO interrupts and never uses any utility abilities to help the group compared to another similar spec player who is only at 75% of specs potential damage but hits interrupts and uses utility abilities to help the group when needed. Which has the higher MMR?

On the other hand, doesn't r.io/M+ score kind of provide a ranking number for players to use as a potential metric for measuring skill/knowledge of a potential player? Yes there is boosting involved so don't solely rely on r.io/M+ score but also factor in how many dungeons are finished in time for the bracket of dungeons you're doing as well (the r.io addon provides this info).

Its already like that. People pick meta/FOTM classes, done so since m+ was introduced. Especially for high m+ keys. Only natural though, the thougher challenge the more prepped you want to be.

And yeah, the m+ score we get is more or less a MMR.

[erifwodahs]

I said it. When I was playing WoW I first experienced M+ when I joined a M0. Didn't think it was that bad but then once I got up around 8-10 I noticed finding groups became painful. Bare in mind I was a frost mage and at the start of 9.0 after pre-launch nerfs Frost Mages were dookie. Fire wasn't but man I really really hate twitchy gameplay.

Being honest here--there's no good logical reason from my perspective as to why this doesn't happen. I know people will all say comp comp comp--my response is that the burden of responsibility for balancing the game so that all specs, and all classes are viable with one another is a dev issue, and any deviation from that statement is you as a paying customer being okay with a subpar product.

Hire some actuaries to balance your numbers and let players connect with one another automatically. The insistence on Premade grouping is so dated and not helpful to anyone.

I can tell that you haven't been doing any higher keys. Might as well do a que for HC raid and Mythic raid too and see how popular it is.

[crusadernero]

I can tell that you haven't been doing any higher keys. Might as well do a que for HC raid and Mythic raid too and see how popular it is.

Theres already a score system tied to m+, its only missing a automated lfg feature.

[Miffinat0r]

Theres already a score system tied to m+, its only missing a automated lfg feature.

Can't be done it's too hard!--Literally lack of imagination

36 specs how do you balance that?!--As if actuaries aren't a thing.

Again these threads I started show one thing: WoW players are afraid of losing privilege. Ya know what they say, removing privilege from people feels like oppression to them.

[reemi]

You can't really be serious, this is a troll right?

Automated M+ doesn't work because not everyone is capable of doing it
Its like asking for LFR for heroic and mythic raids, they already have a hard time completing LFR

And?? Don't use it if you don't want to.

[crusadernero]

Can't be done it's too hard!--Literally lack of imagination

36 specs how do you balance that?!--As if actuaries aren't a thing.

Again these threads I started show one thing: WoW players are afraid of losing privilege. Ya know what they say, removing privilege from people feels like oppression to them.

Tbh, i've played this game since launch more or less. With breaks ofc. I do enjoy the vanilla(classic) playstyle, but theres also aspects of retail wow I find great. Since m+ now has a rating system in place, theres no reason it cant done as a automated lfg feature. You get grouped up with ppl close to your rating, thats it.

I've done my fair share of m+ and its not like its a social adventure. People search for grps until they get accepted into one, travel to dungeon and start clearing. If it goes bad(doesnt take much) often enough someone rages, leaves and key is ruined.

[Tiwack]

Just M0 needs lfg-feature, M+ needs to abandon the key system, it's gatekeeping a lot of players from participating and playing the content they want, because it's nothing more than yet another veiled retention mechanism to keep you logging in every week/maintain ingame social relations or risk being left behind the curve.

They could do unranked/untimed M+ lfg-feature, that'd be really cool tbh and a great teaching tool for new comers and returning players, just toss them a bone as a reward and be done with it.

[Alroxas]

Can't be done it's too hard!--Literally lack of imagination

Or more likely, there's not enough benefit for the time to invest to develop it. Especially now for Blizzard, there's probably more oversight on what makes money and what doesn't.

You want a queue for M+ then prove to the beancounters why this would be a good thing for bringing in more money without alienating the player base.

36 specs how do you balance that?!--As if actuaries aren't a thing.

Balance is a tough thing because the profile of 1 spec doesn't equally compare to the profile of another spec.

Let's take a DPS example: Here's two classes that have a DPS of 10k on ST on a 5 minute patchwerk encounter sim. However the profile of DPS class A is that it's very bursty when DPS CDs are up which means it can go as high as 20k DPS but the rest of the time it sits at a much lower DPS (far lower than the average DPS class). Flip over to DPS class B which doesn't have very much burst at all... in fact, it just does 10k DPS steady for the full 5 minutes.

On paper, both classes are balanced but if a raid encounter has priority targets that need to be bursted down in short windows... class A is clearly stronger. Yet numerically it's balanced in a 5 minute patchwerk encounter sim.

The only real way to ensure that all DPS specs can be just as bursty is to homogenize all of them so they can all perform equally well in any kind of scenario (bursty to steady DPS) but that makes for a dull game. You might as well just combine all the DPS specs into 1 specs because it wouldn't matter.

Same thing with healers... Resto druids are the KING of HoTs. But put them in a scenario where burst damage is happening to the party/raid and they perform poorly compared to say a Holy Priest or Holy Paladin. Does that mean that resto druids are imbalanced? Or since the topic is on dungeons, healer DPS can be a factor in higher keys. Holy Paladins (a la Glimmer build) can easily do a lot of DPS while keeping the party healed. Is this imbalanced? Should Glimmer be nerfed or removed from the game?

Again these threads I started show one thing: WoW players are afraid of losing privilege.

I'd argue that these threads show that folks have opinions of what's they think is best when it's really not. And to have a great idea would require getting into the weeds to really iterate on an actual improvement to the game which takes more work than your average poster.

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They could do unranked/untimed M+ lfg-feature

Hi that's called M+0. You can take as long as you want to complete a M+0.

M+ needs to abandon the key system, it's gatekeeping a lot of players

How is the key system gatekeeping other players. If you have a key, you can form your own groups. Pick well and do well to yield a higher key which you can do again until YOU hit a wall where the difficult is more than your group can handle.

As others have said, players are free to make their own groups when doing M+ keystones.

[Algorath]

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are absolutely wrong.

Queues for M0 would be fine though.

[Tiwack]

I'd argue that these threads show that folks have opinions of what's they think is best when it's really not. And to have a great idea would require getting into the weeds to really iterate on an actual improvement to the game which takes more work than your average poster.

Yea because people like you have a bad habit of ignoring whatever you disagree with when debating instead of defeating the points brought up.

Hi that's called M+0. You can take as long as you want to complete a M+0.

M+0 is just M0 not M+

How is the key system gatekeeping other players. If you have a key, you can form your own groups. Pick well and do well to yield a higher key which you can do again until YOU hit a wall where the difficult is more than your group can handle.

I'll just answer with the full sentence you picked apart to your own liking:

because it's nothing more than yet another veiled retention mechanism to keep you logging in every week/maintain ingame social relations or risk being left behind the curve.

I'll add that leveling your own key from the bottom up to 15+ again, takes a lot of time, isn't fun nor enjoyable and feels more like a chore than a game for a feature. This is why the key system must go and why "level your own key" doesn't fly whenever M+ issues come up

[Alroxas]

I'll add that leveling your own key from the bottom up to 15+ again, takes a lot of time, isn't fun nor enjoyable and feels more like a chore than a game for a feature. This is why the key system must go and why "level your own key" doesn't fly whenever M+ issues come up

Leveling your key up is something EVERYBODY has to do at the start of the expansion. We all started with M0 and +2s until we're where we are at today.

And that process of leveling up keys up does serve a benefit of providing knowledge and experience to players in terms of dungeon mechanics, affix mechanics and various routes/tactics to handle them.

For some reason, you're implying that players should be able to "skip" past all of that and join whatever high key they want without necessarily showing their knowledge/skill to be able to do those keys.

That sounds like a recipe for disaster to allow untested, unproven players to do keys where they may lack the knowledge and skill to do them especially in a PuG scenario where there is very little to zero communication between players.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Can't be done it's too hard!--Literally lack of imagination

36 specs how do you balance that?!--As if actuaries aren't a thing.

Again these threads I started show one thing: WoW players are afraid of losing privilege. Ya know what they say, removing privilege from people feels like oppression to them.

There is no privilege here. You are self-admittedly just too lazy to form a group or find one yourself.

You want to queue for dungeons? You already can.

Its pitiful that you ignore every argument against you and just keep saying but actuaries!?! As if that means anything. Yeah, your big bro said he could balance WoW in a day with one hand, great. Now go use the LFG tool and quit acting like you are being oppressed.

[Sucralose]

Looks at cata heroics " This tragedy must never be repeated."

[Miffinat0r]

Looks at cata heroics " This tragedy must never be repeated."

As I said before. Players never leave because a game got easier.

Players will leave if it got harder.

[Amnaught]

You can't really be serious, this is a troll right?

Automated M+ doesn't work because not everyone is capable of doing it
Its like asking for LFR for heroic and mythic raids, they already have a hard time completing LFR

A little worse though, because at least filling in a heroic raid with randoms wouldn't potentially destroy your key

[Polybius]

As I said before. Players never leave because a game got easier.

Players will leave if it got harder.

Players weren't geared enough to do Heroic and complained for the first weeks, then it got nerfed. Sometimes player response should be taken with a grain of salt. Heroic should've never been queueable.