GV or bonus roll...

[Pakheth]

yep, same here.

but:

what you said (quoted) about Blizzards stance, i personally dont even see this as an real argument. because 1 of my chars is 246 12/12 m+ in every slot and 252 from GV in 60-70% of all slots. all i do on this toon is to run 1 m+ 16-19 (whatever gives quickly the best looking grp in dungeon tool, after inspected in r.io addon) per week, to do a single shot for the GV, in hope for a 252 item in the slots i dont already have 252, but still 246. this takes around 30-45min per week, remember that, we came back to that later.

above weekly task with its tiny chance is nearly the same „dead horse“ as „you finished gearing the char“ after buying all VP gear.

what i wanna say:

when you did all you can do, on 1 char (mythic raiding asside, cause of shedule), you are done and play other content (alts, pet battles, farming, achievements, PvP, auction housing, whatever… wow has lots of options). no game design will ever fix that. and the last game, that needs to solve such an „running out stuff to do“ problem, is wow. because it has maaaany options.

this means: Blizzards mindset behind „keep em playing with GV“ is utterly BS and do more harm (treadmill, weekly m+, boring hope for a slight upgrade) than it excites the ppls. when you play more chars it becomes more of a treadmill job, to quickly push them through a 30-45 „must do“ content, for a tiny chance of a tiny upgrade. when playing just „the one and only main char“, i STRONGLY doubt that above „30-45mins tiny chance“ game design keeps ppls THAT much longer playing and paying. so we should ask ourselves: what benefit has this game design in reality ?

so, if i were Blizz, i would overthought my game design and their goals here. in the end, stuff like GV, do more harm than they help.

I definitely agree. It's a poor argument from Blizzard. It's also funny, because when the game had predictable loot it was also a lot more popular, probably because people knew they would get something in the end and therefore didn't worry over RNG. Ofc there are those who are only driven by RNG loot, but I think it's sad that the game systems are to be based only on their inability to stop playing over those who want to play but are turned of by rampant RNG.

I am gonna say one thing though, I don't mind getting less loot, as long as the loot is more or less guaranteed to be good, which predictable loot would be in most cases. I was not a fan of the thousands of epics they tossed at us during Legion and BFA because it didn't feel rewarding. I feel upgrades are a lot better in Shadowlands, it is rewarding to get a new weapon or gear piece, I just wish I didn't get so many duplicates. Getting 5 rings and no other loot for a while makes the RNG painful.

[Enter Name Here]

i choose the badge gear option

[Swnem]

People very clearly pointed out how much better they thought the gearing system was in vanilla WoW and wanted something like that, so yeah that does equal loot is much harder to come by. Soooo....

No, pretty sure this is just what you think.
Actually, i'd like to see you quote someone saying they want loot like vanilla that isn't a classic player.

[Exkrementor]

Masterlooter.

[Niwes]

I definitely agree. It's a poor argument from Blizzard. It's also funny, because when the game had predictable loot it was also a lot more popular, probably because people knew they would get something in the end and therefore didn't worry over RNG. Ofc there are those who are only driven by RNG loot, but I think it's sad that the game systems are to be based only on their inability to stop playing over those who want to play but are turned of by rampant RNG.

I am gonna say one thing though, I don't mind getting less loot, as long as the loot is more or less guaranteed to be good, which predictable loot would be in most cases. I was not a fan of the thousands of epics they tossed at us during Legion and BFA because it didn't feel rewarding. I feel upgrades are a lot better in Shadowlands, it is rewarding to get a new weapon or gear piece, I just wish I didn't get so many duplicates. Getting 5 rings and no other loot for a while makes the RNG painful.

yep, totally agree (foremost the last part).

the last part you said is the explanation for „how is RNG responsible for wow feeling like a job insread of fun“. there is a connection between RNG and the „treadmill effect“ that many ppl often dont see:

when your RNG gives you 5 times the same (or an already existing) item, you start focusing on that „a new item“ tiny chance. and so you start doing stuff every week, because the chance is so small, that you need to create a big anount of „rolls“. this means you way more MUST do it every week and dont miss out, because you need that mass of rolls. and because you get more concerned by a „what if THIS week had something useful dropped“ mindset.

what i wanna say:

the smaller the chance is, the more prominent it is, to not miss out a week. and this feeling feeds the feeling of „wow as a job“. and the more useful items you already got from the GV, the smaller the chance becomes, to get something useful. this means: the more you wanna have fun in wow and the more you play and progress, the more it feels like a job and the more it distracts you. this is rather stupid and counterproductive. its like someone is saying „the more you invest in us, the more we kick your balls“.

maybe this is better understandable, when we look at the other extreme, or other case around: lets say you ALWAYS get something useful out of GV. just assume this as some fact for illustration and dont think about the greater long term game design consequences. lets just look directly at the GV thing, decoupled from the rest of game design and environment. ok, so, lets say the GV drops always something useful. this means we „know“ that this happens and we are in no hurry to do this every week on lets say 3 toons. because we know, if we miss our chance this week, we guaranteed get something next week. the effect is: we are not in hurry. we have no „must do“ feeling. no „wow as a job“ treadmill.

ofc above extreme example is stupid and not works as game design for many other reasons. but it shows very clearly: the fact that your GV drops random, lower the chance to get a useful item more and more, the more useful items you already got. which leads more and more to the „wow is a job“ feeling.

i am not sure if Blizzard ever REALLY thought about that…

[Soon-TM]

Weekly bingo lottery is not a solution, this shit should be straight up removed.

Agreed. One of my many... Issues with SL is how it has rapidly degenerated into World of Vaultcraft. It feels really patronising at best, outright insulting at worst, for example when RNGesus decides to throw three offhands at you when you are already rocking a cool staff.

[Dracullus]

People very clearly pointed out how much better they thought the gearing system was in vanilla WoW and wanted something like that, so yeah that does equal loot is much harder to come by. Soooo....

Also, what people expected? That loot will rain from the sky like in titanforged times and you always get perfect stats? Still it was way easier to gear on SL launch than Vanilla and get BiS in every slot, especially if you played all 3 gearing paths.

Only major problem was that ultra casual people run of options to gear very, very fast. But that was solved in 9.1.

[Nalam the Venom]

...just curious, what you will more pref...3 random choices from GV or bonus roll with which you can target specific boss with specific loot?

GV, Bonus loot and currency on each boss kill which you can use at a vendor to buy highest ilvl items, Thus can raid LFR/Norm and still get Mythic ilvl.

But ofc the currency would be low on lower difficulty and higher on higher difficulty.

[Alkizon]

Honestly the whole gearing system just sucks.

And this is main reason why I formulated the way to solve such problems (in another topic) in mentioned there way

[Eazy]

Vault is much better than bonus rolls.

[cparle87]

...just curious, what you will more pref...3 random choices from GV or bonus roll with which you can target specific boss with specific loot?

The "random" choices from the vault come from the content you're doing. Pvp, raid, or key. So you'll be getting gear tuned to the stuff you're doing. Bonus roll gives you a shot at something that one guy gives. Good for if you're targetting one piece, less good imho in all other situations.

- - - Updated - - -

I choose justice/valor vendors over any rng slot machine!

So two or three useful pieces per raid tier, hoping they don't conflict with your dom slot, legendary, tier sets, or other locked slots? "Hey my bis leggo is wrist and I need shoulders to keep my 4pc but the only two items on the valor vendor are wrist and shoulders. Guess the vendor is useless for me this tier. Better luck next tier."

[Loveliest]

People very clearly pointed out how much better they thought the gearing system was in vanilla WoW and wanted something like that, so yeah that does equal loot is much harder to come by. Soooo....

Yeah. Ppl playing classic did say that. How awesome it feels to get some green than epic after epic. And devs did say they learned from Classic some stuff ppl like so they reduced loot in raids and whatnot. But they reverted the change later on. They need better ppl to analyse context and correlation.

[Talon8669]

And this is main reason why I formulated the way to solve such problems (in another topic) in mentioned there way

I just think they should let you essentially get the best gear as long as you're willing to grind it out. Right now you can upgrade gear so just let people upgrade to the very best. I get the argument that if they don't compete in the highest level of content they don't need the best gear. Which is true but it also causes people to fall of the gear treadmill and stop playing. And specifically for pvp no one wants to be capped at a certain Ilvl and be held back because they don't say do rated content and just do random bgs. IDK, maybe it's just because I don't have the time anymore or the fucks to give. But my desire to play is completely diminished if I know I can't get the best gear. And I am not saying just give it to me but let me grind stuff out like bgs and mythics and earn some currency to upgrade my gear. Otherwise I just unsub once I hit the cap I can get on playing solo.

[Alkizon]

Talon8669
I just think they should let you essentially get the best gear as long as you're willing to grind it out.

Let's just say that this is what concerns PvP, then in general "yes", BUT! There is mall amendment, if you'll read requirements for system (my stuff) in correct sequence, it contain one point that is often emphasized and fluctuate within framework of word "inflation" - for correct itemization, they must significantly reduce growth of inflation, for which, confidently and cheerfully eliminate current useless systems of complexities, and that means base requirements for characteristics in dungeons - choose something in between and "complicate" process by means of other methods that can, on one hand - allow you to have "competitive"/"challenge" part, on other hand - still allow you to get acquainted with content and those who feel less confident.

In other words, growth of basic/boosting stats will be minimal, but required "dividing" (PvP vs. PvE) stats will increase (avoidance and normalization of attack stats, secondary survival stats, positioning and level of additional support during encounter - all this can vary at player's will, and controlled by internal "RP"/interactive-mechanisms of dungeon itself, not by interface! by no means).

In short, everything in game is connected here, therefore, regardless of fact that base indicators of characteristics both in PvP and in PvE for "best" players will ultimately be higher, and rest ones will slowly follow them (as you said) - still direct difference in their immediate indicators will be minimal, and therefore not so "offend" second ones. Got what I mean? You are unlikely to get best gear, but average one will be quite enough for you, not only for general content passage, but also in order not to feel "backward" in direct conflict with advanced players. Direct difference in strength (catastrophic) will only be felt between those who're just starting to dress up and those who have already dressed, just increase in characteristics as you move through expansion will resemble something similar to square root of X, but much flater (i.e. entry period will be quite insignificant, further, growth of available upgrades will be very slow and extended over time, including professions and local reputations, which in the middle of expansion will thus serve as kind of equivalent of catch-up mechanic for twinks and newcomers (for example, they will be available through auction or acquaintances with reagent and crafters: jewelry/gems, enchants, higher level alchemy, base craftable/grindable sets, and various other upgrades, so catching up with available minimal secondary characteristics to current required level of content) ~ but later skill and performance will begin to come to fore more).

Nature of gameplay and content design should be interesting so that player will want to go through it again, for example, with another character (bring it as far as possible to the level of main one), and not because "there is still room to grow" (for which your skills&experience, not passive strength gain)... which means that ending of your post automatically enrolls you in the "other" player camp. Not in a bad way, but in principle

ps. I repeat, problems can and should be considered in complex way, and not as current devs do - by dividing them into separate unrelated tasks. However, there is link in that message to the topic with tokens discussion and analysis of their impact on "desire" of devs to generally solve some of these problems, which a priori deprives our such discussions of any ground. And this is exactly what is so depressing.

---

A lot of factors interfere with full implementation of such design: from itemization (organization of characteristics, approach to distribution of loot, progress organizaton, catch-up stuff, scaling everything with everything/everyone), content design (dungeon difficulty system, again scaling), class organization (secondary parasitic systems and chaos inside already existing hierarchy), banal greed (yes, these same tokens and other methods/motives) ~ if we add to this all regulation of social and server parts (inter-server mechanisms of interaction, including CRZ and search, phasing and WM), then picture of game's state will become complete for analysis and understanding (if add stuff about work of graphic designers and my complete rejection of appearance and animation of "new" models, their current style, then it can pinpointed a broad understanding of my personal attitude to game and about any desire to somehow associate myself with project, interest to it).