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  1. #1

    Should dungeons have more than 3 DPS? What if it was 1 tank 1 heal 5 dps?

    We all know the current 5 man dungeons. We all know the extreme queue times as a DPS for random queue. We all know how incredibly fast your M+ group gets flooded with DPS applicants and you can choose your prime rib with too high itemlevel.

    It's obvious why, the vast majority of gamers want to play DPS. Be it because being a healer is annoying where everyone blames you every time they die or you running out of mana, or as a tank you have to know the dungeon inside out and pull perfectly else you are a moron. It could also simply be because the vast majority of the specs in the game are DPS.

    Overwatch 2 made a big change where they changed the game from being "2 tanks 2 healers 2 dps" to be "1 tank 2 healers 2 dps". People simply don't enjoy playing the main tank shielders like Reinhart or Orissa as much.

    More DPS means better queue times for the role. It also is a better representation of a raid composition where the DPS to tank ratio is not 3 to 1.

    Should WoW change to be maybe 1 tank 1 healer 5 DPS? What problems would that cause?

  2. #2
    so to relieve wait times in the queue we put more pressure on the healer who is, according to your post, already annoying?

  3. #3
    As a healers this is kinda a bad idea, when you see the amount of people who keep standing in bad stuff, it would be even more stress on the healers, then theres some healing classes with shit aoe healing like holy paladin , they have to stand in melee to heal and if you have 4/5 ranged dps your cone heal will heal nobody, was the worst m+ in my life with grievous, never again.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Enter Name Here View Post
    so to relieve wait times in the queue we put more pressure on the healer who is, according to your post, already annoying?
    The game would obviously be balanced around having 5 DPS. The math does not check out if the game expects a healer to heal 6 people from 10% to 100% in less than 5 seconds.

  5. #5
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    I don't really see the need to do so.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    We all know the current 5 man dungeons. We all know the extreme queue times as a DPS for random queue. We all know how incredibly fast your M+ group gets flooded with DPS applicants and you can choose your prime rib with too high itemlevel.

    It's obvious why, the vast majority of gamers want to play DPS. Be it because being a healer is annoying where everyone blames you every time they die or you running out of mana, or as a tank you have to know the dungeon inside out and pull perfectly else you are a moron. It could also simply be because the vast majority of the specs in the game are DPS.

    Overwatch 2 made a big change where they changed the game from being "2 tanks 2 healers 2 dps" to be "1 tank 2 healers 2 dps". People simply don't enjoy playing the main tank shielders like Reinhart or Orissa as much.

    More DPS means better queue times for the role. It also is a better representation of a raid composition where the DPS to tank ratio is not 3 to 1.

    Should WoW change to be maybe 1 tank 1 healer 5 DPS? What problems would that cause?
    this makes no sense. queue times will not decrease if you increase the amount of dps required. dps fill up rather quickly, it's the healer and tank roles that people are usually waiting on.

  7. #7
    Not necessarily. The better solution would be to ease the role of tank. Or make DPS more difficult. Outside of super high keys or guild groups the tank does basically 80% of the work in a dungeon and even has to prepare it (looking up routes).
    Especially the last part should be abolished.
    5 DPS would just mean that the tank has now 5 people to carry and the healer two more potential liabilities to heal.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    this makes no sense. queue times will not decrease if you increase the amount of dps required. dps fill up rather quickly, it's the healer and tank roles that people are usually waiting on.
    If it's 30 DPS in queue and only 4 healers and 4 tanks queue the healers and tanks get queue pop instantly while 18 DPS now are stuck in a queue with no healer or tank.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    this makes no sense. queue times will not decrease if you increase the amount of dps required. dps fill up rather quickly, it's the healer and tank roles that people are usually waiting on.
    More DPS players per group = less groups = less tanks & healers required. I mean, that's the logic behind it, not that i believe that this would work.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Not necessarily. The better solution would be to ease the role of tank. Or make DPS more difficult. Outside of super high keys or guild groups the tank does basically 80% of the work in a dungeon and even has to prepare it (looking up routes).
    Especially the last part should be abolished.
    5 DPS would just mean that the tank has now 5 people to carry and the healer two more potential liabilities to heal.
    Exactly.

    All the issues are focused on how tanking works and what the game (and players) expect from tanks. Adding more DPS won't solve the issue since you are still asking the tank to be the one that takes certain responsabilities that happen to be a massive entry barrier for that role and it will still be a role that has very little room for mistakes, either because a tank making a bad move can be a wipe for everyone or simply because the group has a bad reaction if a tank doesn't play how is expected. This starts to happen even while leveling, so possible new tanks are discouraged to keep at it.

    But honestly, i don't believe that a solution is possible without creating a different problem that can be worse. For example, making tanking easier is not something that can be achieved by changing how a class works, it's something that can only be achieved by changing how dungeon works. Would it be worth having more people playing tanks for dungeons, but the whole dungeon scene becoming easier and finally more unrewarding?
    Last edited by Geckoo; 2022-01-11 at 10:06 AM.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    The game would obviously be balanced around having 5 DPS. The math does not check out if the game expects a healer to heal 6 people from 10% to 100% in less than 5 seconds.
    I can't tell if this is serious response or trolling. Can't even balance classes in the history of wow in a raid setting and expect this in a smaller scale. Also I don't think you can balance "stupid".

  11. #11
    Short of eliminating the need for dedicated tanks and healers in queued content, I don't think there's really a way for the devs to reduce queue times for DPS players. As another poster mentioned, 4 DPS slots will fill up just as quickly as 3...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    We all know the current 5 man dungeons. We all know the extreme queue times as a DPS for random queue. We all know how incredibly fast your M+ group gets flooded with DPS applicants and you can choose your prime rib with too high itemlevel.

    It's obvious why, the vast majority of gamers want to play DPS. Be it because being a healer is annoying where everyone blames you every time they die or you running out of mana, or as a tank you have to know the dungeon inside out and pull perfectly else you are a moron. It could also simply be because the vast majority of the specs in the game are DPS.

    Overwatch 2 made a big change where they changed the game from being "2 tanks 2 healers 2 dps" to be "1 tank 2 healers 2 dps". People simply don't enjoy playing the main tank shielders like Reinhart or Orissa as much.

    More DPS means better queue times for the role. It also is a better representation of a raid composition where the DPS to tank ratio is not 3 to 1.

    Should WoW change to be maybe 1 tank 1 healer 5 DPS? What problems would that cause?
    When I play my DPS characters I create my own m+ grps. That way I always get groups :P

  13. #13
    What que? Normal? Adding more won’t help.

  14. #14
    Before modern autoqueue, you could assemble whatever team you wanted. In BC, the best *undergeared* dungeon comp was 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps, 1 offhealer that also dpsed. The best standard comp was 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps. If you overgeared the dungeon, you could just go 1 healer 4 dps. That was really a cool mechanic. Unfortunately, they locked roles in the autoqueue, destroying that and making everything 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps.

  15. #15
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    Dugeons currently have 4 DPS, effectively. Sometimes even 4,5.


    Healers and tank damage input together equals a whole DPS in most cases. When the players are good and the gear is there, even surpass it. This is literally hard fact now a days.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Before modern autoqueue, you could assemble whatever team you wanted. In BC, the best *undergeared* dungeon comp was 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps, 1 offhealer that also dpsed. The best standard comp was 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps. If you overgeared the dungeon, you could just go 1 healer 4 dps. That was really a cool mechanic. Unfortunately, they locked roles in the autoqueue, destroying that and making everything 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps.
    ....a real cool mechanic that was bring whoever the fuck you want that you can technically still do anyway but the button to just automatically queue is there so it's null and void?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Short of eliminating the need for dedicated tanks and healers in queued content, I don't think there's really a way for the devs to reduce queue times for DPS players. As another poster mentioned, 4 DPS slots will fill up just as quickly as 3...
    Yep.
    I can never understand why the majority of mmo players want to play DD roles. They are the most common and boring, at the end of the day. You have (generally) 0 impact and responsability on the fights. YOu will hardly ever make a difference, as you have at least what, 10 or 18 more people doing exactly what you are doing, spaming damage.

    Number of healers and tanks needed are smaller, plus people not playing them as much... that will always mean queues.

    But, to be hoenst, that is fine. No change can do any good imo.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Enter Name Here View Post
    so to relieve wait times in the queue we put more pressure on the healer who is, according to your post, already annoying?
    Depending on the group, having 5 DPS will actually make it a lot easier for the healer, since you have that much more cc/kicks. There is very little unavoidable group wide damage in dungeons/m+ (like, say, Stradama), and quite obviously it would have to be balanced for a bigger group.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Geckoo View Post
    More DPS players per group = less groups = less tanks & healers required. I mean, that's the logic behind it, not that i believe that this would work.
    Why wouldn't it work? Not saying it's a great solution, but math is math.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    Dugeons currently have 4 DPS, effectively. Sometimes even 4,5.
    Healers and tank damage input together equals a whole DPS in most cases. When the players are good and the gear is there, even surpass it. This is literally hard fact now a days.
    I think you're missing the point. The post is about literal DPS players - you know, the ones with a sword icon. The op is about a solution to make it easier for said players to queue.

  19. #19
    The UBRS dungeon (before the rework) effectively allowed for this, as it was originally a 15man dungeon, later reduced to 10man. You could run with 2 tanks, couple healers, all the rest DPS back in the day... no idea what the "classic meta" would be now, but back then most people didn't care as long as you can someone to kite an add on the last boss.

    Considering that everything must be made for automatic group match-making for 5man content, any sort of flexibility is greatly reduced for dungeons. If the size for the group could be upped to 10man for some dungeons, you could allow for more DPS. Caveat is that you'd likely have to tune everything for 1 tank and 1 healer at the bare minimum (aka, no mandatory 2-tank taunt swaps like you get in raids).

    Another aspect working against this is M+. I doubt Blizz wants to try to do 10man dungeon M+ for various reasons, most of which I think are weak reasons but that's another post. I suppose you could have your 5man dungeons allow for M+ while your 10man dungeons don't, but then you get into the whole end-game debacle where Blizz would have to figure out how to integrate said dungeons into the end-game rotation... or just leave them to die as the standard protocol.

    Honestly, the way these would be implemented would likely just be as smaller 10man raids, but Blizz would be soooo tempted to put the raid tuning/restrictions onto them where they'd lose their flexibility that Blizz likes to tune out of raids. At this point, you're going to have to hope Blizz revamps the end-game to where 10man dungeons/raids can fit in their own niche without being overshadowed by raids and M+. Of the lesser of all these evils, the best bet is to treat them like raids instead of dungeons while leaving out mandatory tank swaps (or anything mandatory, even on the mythic setting). Heck, just making the goal fun instead of "race to world first" tuning being the goal would be a step in the right direction for everything.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Why wouldn't it work? Not saying it's a great solution, but math is math.

    Math is math, but reality is also reality; as a theory? works, in practice? you are still going to end up with a bunch of groups all looking for the same 1 or 2 roles. A DPS player won't really notice any change and the whole game would have to be changed to fit this silly 7-man hybrid between dungeons & raids.

    Tanking and to a lesser extent healing is what needs to be looked into.
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