Should dungeons have more than 3 DPS? What if it was 1 tank 1 heal 5 dps?

[jazen]

instead just make the tank an npc with instant never fail aggro mechanic. dps to your hearts content.

[Crumbica]

While there maybe should be a change, proposed one does not make sense, because:
1. Having more dps will make the instance much more easier (even now on m10+, people just run through the instance as dps is just to high)... not to mention cc's and similar...
2. If you open more dps slots, the wait time would reduce from 15min to 14min, which is still shit
3. With more slots, part of healers/tanks will change their opinion and say: well, now there are more spaces for dps, so i dont have to tank/heal anymore.. and also, new players are more likely to go to dps, if they see that there is more demand for them (5 instead of 3)...

So, that for sure is not an option... potential option are incentives for tanks/healers, and disincentive for dps, but this needs to be lucrative enough to have an impact, which in turn means disbalance of gold/gear earned and similar...

[Boricha]

In m+ pugs, 2 extra dps would still be chosen very quickly and have the same class/ilvl requirements you see now. It would only make a dent. For heroic and normal queues, that content is extremely short-lived and easily bypass-able, so it doesn't seem relevant. It would also be a balancing nightmare.

[NineSpine]

Or they could just make tanking and healing more desirable, but god forbid Blizzard fix an underlying issue.

[Bee76]

It's obvious why, the vast majority of gamers want to play DPS. Be it because being a healer is annoying where everyone blames you every time they die or you running out of mana, or as a tank you have to know the dungeon inside out and pull perfectly else you are a moron. It could also simply be because the vast majority of the specs in the game are DPS.

Thats the issue! I like to heal, i even like to heal M+, but i wont never (!) heal in a pug grp again. Game is way to toxic in random dungeons and blizz isnt doing anything about it.
Healer life in pugs is bad, so i just heal friends and guildmates.

And, well normally i like to tank aswell, but im not interested in learning every dungeon every pull, every path for every affix. Tanking is fine, but tanking in dungeons sucks (for me) so i stopped doing this in BfA.


More dps per grp wont solve the problem

[Hobbidaggy]

Why not a system like islands, didn’t need a tank or healer. Allow the option queue for say a “5dps group” queue or “standard group”. The “5dps group” gets a dungeon with an optimised play where you get basic rewards, say normal loot as it is now. The “standard group” queue however will reward slightly higher ilvl and a higher gold drop. This needs a tank/healer/dps group and will be more rewarding.
This does no also stop the “5dps group” from accepting healers or tanks just like islands did, this way dos can still do the dungeons and they get loot but if they want to get the better loot and reward they queue with the tank/healer group

[Ealyssa]

As a healers this is kinda a bad idea, when you see the amount of people who keep standing in bad stuff, it would be even more stress on the healers, then theres some healing classes with shit aoe healing like holy paladin , they have to stand in melee to heal and if you have 4/5 ranged dps your cone heal will heal nobody, was the worst m+ in my life with grievous, never again.

If dungeons weren't changed to accommodate this it would be waaaaay easier for healers. Everything would die way faster meaning less healing to do.
Very few damages are group wide non scaling damages (but a few exists), most instance of damage are focus to specific people or zones which wouldn't be harder to heal.

So actually more DPS would need the dungeons to become harder, not easier.

Or they could just make tanking and healing more desirable

It already is, me and plenty of people find tanking and/or healing more interesting.
But it will never be DPSing and that can't be changed. No matter how cool tanking is, you still are the defacto leader of the group and need to know more. Same for healing, no matter of nice it is you will forever be in charge of the survival of the group.

That's pressure that the majority of people will never want. And that's fine. That's why you need more no brain DPS than leadership roles in groups and raids.

What need to change isn't tanking or healing but the DPS players mentality of blaming everyone but themselves for their failures.

[Raven]

Does it really mean better queues ?

[ercarp]

That's too much pressure on the healer. Pugging is already completely screwed with the amount of DPS standing in shit. Imagine having to deal with five idiots instead of three.

[Dancaris]

Why bother with this little much? Lets add another tank and healer. Then we could add even another 1 or 2 DDs.
Congratulation, you invented 10p raids.

For me - 1/1/4 would be ideal for group runs. With raids be 2/2/8 - 12people for raids.

[shise]

And how is this related to the thread which talks about reducing queue time by increasing how many DPS gets served by 1 tank and 1 healer? Do you even read bro?

- - - Updated - - -



Ok so you're missing the point AND keep moving the goalpost instead of admitting your failure. How pathetic.

Sure, I made the mistake not to clarify it at first, but I did afterwards, and yet you keep challenging your very own stupidity on this topic. But here, let me help you with bold and underline...

As I said: in a way, we already have 4 DPS in 5 men dungeons. If people want shorter queues and still act as a DPS role... play a healer and optimize for damage. Then yo are essentially a DPS who can also throw a heal every now and then, as needed.

Is it clear now? Is not that hard to understand, I think. We do not need to change the system, it is perfectly good for short queues, specially now that people can switch specs withing what, 1,5 secs?

[LordVargK]

All the issues are focused on how tanking works and what the game (and players) expect from tanks. Adding more DPS won't solve the issue since you are still asking the tank to be the one that takes certain responsabilities that happen to be a massive entry barrier for that role and it will still be a role that has very little room for mistakes, either because a tank making a bad move can be a wipe for everyone or simply because the group has a bad reaction if a tank doesn't play how is expected. This starts to happen even while leveling, so possible new tanks are discouraged to keep at it.

But honestly, i don't believe that a solution is possible without creating a different problem that can be worse. For example, making tanking easier is not something that can be achieved by changing how a class works, it's something that can only be achieved by changing how dungeon works. Would it be worth having more people playing tanks for dungeons, but the whole dungeon scene becoming easier and finally more unrewarding?

I think abandoning the need to plan routes beforehand would go a very long way to resolving this issue.

[saixilein]

Its funny, that m+ group waitlists are full of dps, but when i try ti find a guild as healer or tank they all looking for dps players. Lol

[Cosmic Janitor]

Its funny, that m+ group waitlists are full of dps, but when i try ti find a guild as healer or tank they all looking for dps players. Lol

There are plenty healers and tanks, and alot of awful ones at that, in guilds but they usually have the luxury to decide who they play with. Because of that and the different numerical requirements in raiding, you end up with having a bunch of healers that never participate in random group content, especially the 5 man variety who are then just missing from the overall pool in such scenarios as looking for m+ pugs.

[Sucralose]

There are plenty healers and tanks, and alot of awful ones at that, in guilds but they usually have the luxury to decide who they play with. Because of that and the different numerical requirements in raiding, you end up with having a bunch of healers that never participate in random group content, especially the 5 man variety who are then just missing from the overall pool in such scenarios as looking for m+ pugs.

It should also be noted that successful dps don't really wait to be invited into groups. The real problem with dps is that at lower levels it is the "carried" role. If they changed dungeons to have hard pass personal dps tests you would quickly see a lot of bad dps players becoming tanks since being a passable tank usually is a much lower skill floor to being a passable dps.

It is kind of why the torghast flame add in mythic plus filters so many low level keys when his only mechanics is basic interupt rotation.

[NineSpine]

It already is, me and plenty of people find tanking and/or healing more interesting.

I didn't say nobody likes it, but it clearly isn't desirable enough or this thread wouldn't exist.

But it will never be DPSing and that can't be changed. No matter how cool tanking is, you still are the defacto leader of the group and need to know more. Same for healing, no matter of nice it is you will forever be in charge of the survival of the group.

That's pressure that the majority of people will never want. And that's fine. That's why you need more no brain DPS than leadership roles in groups and raids.

These are cultural problems within the game that should be fixed rather than accepted as facts of nature. There's no reason for tanks for be seen as leaders or for healers to be seen as solely responsible for survival.

]What need to change isn't tanking or healing but the DPS players mentality of blaming everyone but themselves for their failures.

What needs to change is the exact toxic attitude you are displaying, which is what leads to the "blame everyone else" negative atmosphere of the game that ultimately makes tanking and healing undesirable.

Why does another game, which shall remain nameless, have less of an issue with this even though groups only have two DPS? Maybe because all these things that you accept as just "the way things are" can actually be changed and your demand that the game conform to your limited imagination is exactly how these messes got created in the first place.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

Its funny, that m+ group waitlists are full of dps, but when i try ti find a guild as healer or tank they all looking for dps players. Lol

Less spots for healers, even less spots for tanks and from my experience recruiting for mythic content I can say that dps are by far the most unreliable role. For example: For the whole progress of Sanctum we had to replace 1 healer and if I count the trials we had like 12 dps dropping in and out.

[Sucralose]

I didn't say nobody likes it, but it clearly isn't desirable enough or this thread wouldn't exist.



These are cultural problems within the game that should be fixed rather than accepted as facts of nature. There's no reason for tanks for be seen as leaders or for healers to be seen as solely responsible for survival.



What needs to change is the exact toxic attitude you are displaying, which is what leads to the "blame everyone else" negative atmosphere of the game that ultimately makes tanking and healing undesirable.

Why does another game, which shall remain nameless, have less of an issue with this even though groups only have two DPS? Maybe because all these things that you accept as just "the way things are" can actually be changed and your demand that the game conform to your limited imagination is exactly how these messes got created in the first place.

At higher end because it has a very pass fail culture even while leveling. I won't ever claim it is a harder game but from low levels dps are taught that if they don't hit the right target everyone dies. I would argue that having less dps eventually gets you better dps. The only reason why dps are so inflated in wow is because it is by far the easiest role to carry.

While the skill floor for tanking is super low there are some basics you need to know or the group dies. DPS doesn't really run into that till later in the game. Most dps requirements in wow are so low one strong dps at proper gear levels can carry 2 bad ones until heroic raiding or a mythic... 10ish.

[Mystikal]

Or they could just make tanking and healing more desirable, but god forbid Blizzard fix an underlying issue.

This. I know I would tank for PuGs more if I didn't have to memorise eleventy-billion different routes for M+ dungeons, and if I didn't get flamed for pulling 1 mob too many.

[Alroxas]

Sounds like it's time to bring back Scenarios! Remember Scenarios from MoP? 3-man content that didn't require the holy trinity. Mix and match DPS, healers, and tanks.

Give scenarios a few difficulties so that at the high end it's roughly equal to a M0 in terms of loot (and upgradable if you have the valor and M+ score) and Bob's your uncle.

Also provide a small amount of valor at the end of the dungeon but not nearly as much as valor given at the end of a dungeon so that the most effective valor farm is not chain running scenarios.