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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    For the last time, YOU are the one comparing FF14 to LFR - thats YOUR argument. What you are doing is the dictionary definition of a straw man. My argument is simple - it is typical and expected that a group with 6 months experience in a game would struggle to beat the best in the world with years of practice and experience. You cant explain that away, so you just focus on this "but its only as hard as lfr, why did it take them a day to complete it?" when that was NEVER your argument - and its not mine at all - you are creating this weird new argument that is entirely unrelated to the actual topic at hand.
    The fact that you are trying to tell me what my argument is, all while ignoring my actual argument, is really all that needs to be pointed out here. Go find the person you want to argue with, because it isn't me.

    My point is and has always been that FF14 isn't as easy as a lot of people portray it, and that is evidenced by the fact that the wow world first team wasn't a contender at all in the world first race. If it was as easy as LFR, or even normal, the wow world first team should have crushed it in one or two pulls per boss, which would have embarrassed everyone else.

    This isn't about the fact that they didn't win. This is about the fact that they were 38th and a day late. That's not what LFR or even normal difficulty looks like.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The fact that you are trying to tell me what my argument is, all while ignoring my actual argument, is really all that needs to be pointed out here. Go find the person you want to argue with, because it isn't me.

    My point is and has always been that FF14 isn't as easy as a lot of people portray it, and that is evidenced by the fact that the wow world first team wasn't a contender at all in the world first race. If it was as easy as LFR, or even normal, the wow world first team should have crushed it in one or two pulls per boss, which would have embarrassed everyone else.

    This isn't about the fact that they didn't win. This is about the fact that they were 38th and a day late. That's not what LFR or even normal difficulty looks like.
    Good god, you really just dont get this AT ALL do you? Difficulty has NOTHING do do with a race against OTHER PEOPLE. Lets just look at your argument:

    "if ff14 is so easy, why did the wow team only come 38th?"

    The answer is REALLY simple - because the difficulty of the activity is irrelevant when competing against other people - its the skill level and experience of the other people that matters.

    Playing chess is quite simple - why cant anyone practice for a few months and beat the world champion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There might be some tiny design spaces left that a new class could utilize, But I think overall, we might have truly reached a saturation point with the classes.
    - and just like that, the Tinker was gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Good god, you really just dont get this AT ALL do you? Difficulty has NOTHING do do with a race against OTHER PEOPLE. Lets just look at your argument:

    "if ff14 is so easy, why did the wow team only come 38th?"

    The answer is REALLY simple - because the difficulty of the activity is irrelevant when competing against other people - its the skill level and experience of the other people that matters.
    That isn't my argument. My argument is "If FF14 is as easy as LFR, why did the wow team come in 38th and take a day and a half to do it? LFR is one shot by casual players."

    You want to keep pretending that all the extra details you left out aren't there, because of whatever weird thrill you get from being obtuse on purpose.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That isn't my argument. My argument is "If FF14 is as easy as LFR, why did the wow team come in 38th and take a day and a half to do it? LFR is one shot by casual players."

    You want to keep pretending that all the extra details you left out aren't there, because of whatever weird thrill you get from being obtuse on purpose.
    I answered that question - they were not competing against LFR - they were competing against other teams, with more experience in the game. Its really that simple. But you keep bringing this LFR thing up again and again. And this is all based on YOUR assumption that the hardest content in FF14 is the equivalent to LFR in wow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There might be some tiny design spaces left that a new class could utilize, But I think overall, we might have truly reached a saturation point with the classes.
    - and just like that, the Tinker was gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  5. #145
    I am Murloc! Kaneiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That isn't my argument. My argument is "If FF14 is as easy as LFR, why did the wow team come in 38th and take a day and a half to do it? LFR is one shot by casual players."

    You want to keep pretending that all the extra details you left out aren't there, because of whatever weird thrill you get from being obtuse on purpose.
    Who in the hell says savage raiding is equivalent to LFR? The only thing I've ever seen compared to LFR is normal mode, which it really, really is LFR equivalent

    You're creating some weird argument that because a handful of idiots think savage = LFR, that everyone thinks that

    Stop putting so much stock into some bad-faith argument made by people who haven't even played the game and come up with some actual points

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaneiac View Post
    Stop putting so much stock into some bad-faith argument made by people who haven't even played the game and come up with some actual points
    And trolls - please dont forget that for quite some time this was (and still is) the best way to send a FF14 fan off the deep end. I just find it strange that they would base their entire argument around something they dont believe is true - they disprove their own argument every time they make it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There might be some tiny design spaces left that a new class could utilize, But I think overall, we might have truly reached a saturation point with the classes.
    - and just like that, the Tinker was gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  7. #147
    Id be down for it.

    I think they should rework roles completely though and allow DPS to tank/heal, to the point where 2 off heal dps will be sufficient for a dungeon or 2 'bruiser' dps can cover the role of a tank.

    outside of that more dps per dungeon should be fine, just increase the HP pools of the enemies proportionally, the only issue would be CC stacking. Maybe a global debuff per bonus dps that increases the cooldown proportionally for CC on everyone other than the tank (since for them its probably rotational)

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I answered that question - they were not competing against LFR - they were competing against other teams, with more experience in the game. Its really that simple. But you keep bringing this LFR thing up again and again. And this is all based on YOUR assumption that the hardest content in FF14 is the equivalent to LFR in wow.
    My entire argument is that savage is not comparable to LFR.

    This is the weirdest straw man I've ever encountered.

    Me: "Savage is harder than LFR"
    You: "LOL YOU THINK SAVAGE AND LFR ARE THE SAME"

    Congrats on whatever weird thrill acting like this gives you.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #149
    I am Murloc! Kaneiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    My entire argument is that savage is not comparable to LFR.

    This is the weirdest straw man I've ever encountered.

    Me: "Savage is harder than LFR"
    You: "LOL YOU THINK SAVAGE AND LFR ARE THE SAME"

    Congrats on whatever weird thrill acting like this gives you.
    Literally noone thinks this. Not even the person you're arguing with.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaneiac View Post
    Who in the hell says savage raiding is equivalent to LFR? The only thing I've ever seen compared to LFR is normal mode, which it really, really is LFR equivalent

    You're creating some weird argument that because a handful of idiots think savage = LFR, that everyone thinks that

    Stop putting so much stock into some bad-faith argument made by people who haven't even played the game and come up with some actual points
    I never said everyone thinks that. I made a point against that and arkanon decided to fight with me about it.

    FF14 normal is pretty similar to wow normal as far as fight complexity, maybe harder in some cases because normal still allows a good number of players to ignore the mechanics on a lot of fights while FF14 doesn't do fights like that. Everyone has to engage the mechanics. It is usually quite a bit easier on throughput checks though. It's hard to compare because of that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaneiac View Post
    Literally noone thinks this. Not even the person you're arguing with.
    I didn't reply to him and talk about LFR. He replied to me. He is the one that took issue with my framing.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  11. #151
    I am Murloc! Kaneiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I never said everyone thinks that. I made a point against that and arkanon decided to fight with me about it.

    FF14 normal is pretty similar to wow normal as far as fight complexity, maybe harder in some cases because normal still allows a good number of players to ignore the mechanics on a lot of fights while FF14 doesn't do fights like that. Everyone has to engage the mechanics. It is usually quite a bit easier on throughput checks though. It's hard to compare because of that.
    Nah. Normal in FF is infinitesimally easier than normal in wow. Day 1 normal raids are 1 shot by most groups. For Pandaemonium, Erich and Hippo were one shots right as servers came up for me, Phoinix took 1 attempt, and Hesperos took 2 because Pinax is a "gotcha" mechanic that one shots you for Lightning.

    Throughput checks are also non existent in ff normal modes - they haven't had an enrage since Deltascape or earlier. A warrior solod Erich (content that just came out a month ago) on normal and it took him over an hour.

    I genuinely think you have the wires crossed. I've never seen a single soul compare savage to LFR. Normal on the other hand I think you're operating on old data, this isn't Alexander. Normal modes these days don't have an enrage and barely require your randoms to have a pulse.

    I haven't played since 9.0, but normal Council of Blood for your average player was a harsh healing check week 1 on normal, and Sludgefist was generally demanding for casuals. I had a 22 minute hesperos kill because every dps died 5 times 2 days ago. They are not comparable.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaneiac View Post
    Nah. Normal in FF is infinitesimally easier than normal in wow. Day 1 normal raids are 1 shot by most groups. For Pandaemonium, Erich and Hippo were one shots right as servers came up for me, Phoinix took 1 attempt, and Hesperos took 2 because Pinax is a "gotcha" mechanic that one shots you for Lightning.
    That's also true for WoW. Normal world firsts are pretty much immediate.

    Throughput checks are also non existent in ff normal modes - they haven't had an enrage since Deltascape or earlier. A warrior solod Erich (content that just came out a month ago) on normal and it took him over an hour.
    They aren't non-existent. They are just very easy to hit. Enrage isn't the only kind of throughput check.

    I genuinely think you have the wires crossed. I've never seen a single soul compare savage to LFR. Normal on the other hand I think you're operating on old data, this isn't Alexander. Normal modes these days don't have an enrage and barely require your randoms to have a pulse.
    I have seen three different people do it on this forum. Call them trolls or whatever, but they exist.

    Normal modes in wow don't require half the raid to have a pulse.I don't think we disagree about how hard FF Normal is. I think we disagree about how hard WoW normal is.

    I haven't played since 9.0, but normal Council of Blood for your average player was a harsh healing check week 1 on normal, and Sludgefist was generally demanding for casuals. I had a 22 minute hesperos kill because every dps died 5 times 2 days ago. They are not comparable.
    Difficulty isn't uniform. There are fights in wow normal that absolutely are harder than anything in FF normal, but averaging the difficulty and looking at the content as a whole, I don't think it is as simple as "FF Normal = LFR". I think the reality is closer to ff normal falling around first half of wow normal difficulty, on average. The lack of throughput concerns and the fact that everyone pretty much walks into the raid at a decent ilvl for it, which doesn't happen as easily in wow, both make a big difference.

    Theres also a comical amount of variance in WoW based on comp and number of players in the raid, which is also not a concern in FF14, and that makes it even harder to compare. What I can say unequivocally is that LFR is easier and that wow normal does have specific fights that crush FF normal in difficulty.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That's also true for WoW. Normal world firsts are pretty much immediate.



    They aren't non-existent. They are just very easy to hit. Enrage isn't the only kind of throughput check.



    I have seen three different people do it on this forum. Call them trolls or whatever, but they exist.

    Normal modes in wow don't require half the raid to have a pulse.I don't think we disagree about how hard FF Normal is. I think we disagree about how hard WoW normal is.



    Difficulty isn't uniform. There are fights in wow normal that absolutely are harder than anything in FF normal, but averaging the difficulty and looking at the content as a whole, I don't think it is as simple as "FF Normal = LFR". I think the reality is closer to ff normal falling around first half of wow normal difficulty, on average. The lack of throughput concerns and the fact that everyone pretty much walks into the raid at a decent ilvl for it, which doesn't happen as easily in wow, both make a big difference.

    Theres also a comical amount of variance in WoW based on comp and number of players in the raid, which is also not a concern in FF14, and that makes it even harder to compare. What I can say unequivocally is that LFR is easier and that wow normal does have specific fights that crush FF normal in difficulty.
    Interesting. So you are now saying savage is BOT comparable to LFR, and yet your ENTIRE argument is "why did it take a wow guild a day and a half to beat LFR difficulty content in ff"? And "why did they only come 38th when it is as easy as LFR?".

    As I said, your own argument disproves itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There might be some tiny design spaces left that a new class could utilize, But I think overall, we might have truly reached a saturation point with the classes.
    - and just like that, the Tinker was gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Interesting. So you are now saying savage is BOT comparable to LFR, and yet your ENTIRE argument is "why did it take a wow guild a day and a half to beat LFR difficulty content in ff"? And "why did they only come 38th when it is as easy as LFR?".

    As I said, your own argument disproves itself.
    What? Stop making up shit I never said. This is what I said:

    FF14 savage is harder than LFR. We can tell this because the wow world first people took a day and a half to beat it, coming in 38th.

    I don't know what you get out of making all this weird shit up and building strawmen and just being obtuse and condescending for no reason.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    What? Stop making up shit I never said. This is what I said:

    FF14 savage is harder than LFR. We can tell this because the wow world first people took a day and a half to beat it, coming in 38th.

    I don't know what you get out of making all this weird shit up and building strawmen and just being obtuse and condescending for no reason.
    Lol, that is NOT what you said. After spending page after page asking why they didn't win world first when it's LFR difficulty, I finally got you to understand that the difficulty is not a factor when you are competing against other players, not just the content. At that point, you awkwardly backtracked with:

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    My argument is "If FF14 is as easy as LFR, why did the wow team come in 38th and take a day and a half to do it? LFR is one shot by casual players.".
    Which is a really strange argument to make when I don't see anyone genuinely saying savage = LFR, and again, the difficulty of the content is not a factor at all when competing against other players, a point you understand, but refuse to accept because it dismantles your entire argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There might be some tiny design spaces left that a new class could utilize, But I think overall, we might have truly reached a saturation point with the classes.
    - and just like that, the Tinker was gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  16. #156
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    This would just make playing healer even worse, and it's already the worst job to play because people just expect you to clean up their bad play. Having additional people expecting me to carry them? No thanks. Three DPS already makes the job absolutely abysmal sometimes, I don't want to deal with two more every dungeon.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Lol, that is NOT what you said. After spending page after page asking why they didn't win world first when it's LFR difficulty, I finally got you to understand that the difficulty is not a factor when you are competing against other players, not just the content. At that point, you awkwardly backtracked with:

    Which is a really strange argument to make when I don't see anyone genuinely saying savage = LFR, and again, the difficulty of the content is not a factor at all when competing against other players, a point you understand, but refuse to accept because it dismantles your entire argument.
    I don't know what is so terribly difficult to understand about "If it is as hard as LFR, why didn't the world first wow raiders just one shot it and embarrass everyone that plays final fantasy?"

    You would be right if the "world first" race in FF was just a mad dash of one pull kills and the winner determined by a few seconds. Then it would be obviously stupid to say they came in 38th. However, when they finished about a full day after the winners, it raises a question of how the difficulty can possibly be comparable to LFR, a mode that is one shotted by group finder randoms.

    You seem really desperate to find some hole or contradiction here and it's kind of pathetic at this point.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  18. #158
    I think Dungeons should be able to flex and tolerate between 2 and 4 DPS depending on the available pool of players.
    Quote Originally Posted by fizzbob View Post
    you're not supposed to kill someone unless they kill you first. it's common sense.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorfadin View Post
    As a healers this is kinda a bad idea, when you see the amount of people who keep standing in bad stuff, it would be even more stress on the healers, then theres some healing classes with shit aoe healing like holy paladin , they have to stand in melee to heal and if you have 4/5 ranged dps your cone heal will heal nobody, was the worst m+ in my life with grievous, never again.
    I agree with this. The OP had a single good idea in that it might reflect raids better or something. But "long queue times" isn't really a good reason imo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    What? Stop making up shit I never said. This is what I said:

    FF14 savage is harder than LFR. We can tell this because the wow world first people took a day and a half to beat it, coming in 38th.

    I don't know what you get out of making all this weird shit up and building strawmen and just being obtuse and condescending for no reason.
    This isn't really proof, sorry.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I don't know what is so terribly difficult to understand about "If it is as hard as LFR, why didn't the world first wow raiders just one shot it and embarrass everyone that plays final fantasy?"

    You would be right if the "world first" race in FF was just a mad dash of one pull kills and the winner determined by a few seconds. Then it would be obviously stupid to say they came in 38th. However, when they finished about a full day after the winners, it raises a question of how the difficulty can possibly be comparable to LFR, a mode that is one shotted by group finder randoms.

    You seem really desperate to find some hole or contradiction here and it's kind of pathetic at this point.
    Look at you go - still arguing about the difficulty being comparable to LFR - who are you even arguing with at this point? YOU are the only one comparing it to LFR.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There might be some tiny design spaces left that a new class could utilize, But I think overall, we might have truly reached a saturation point with the classes.
    - and just like that, the Tinker was gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

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