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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Two points on that. If you mean to get 'token' drops from the boss that are RNG based then it's the current system in disguise; if you meant: to get GUARANTEED a token that after 3 drops becomes a 'boss token' then it's practically the OP system but: it might have the problem of a lot of spam in the players' bags because they would only be able to use 1 per week so something more basic that doesn't spam their bags (or even their currency inventory seems better) (but that are practical issues and not big disagreements).

    Two: it's not complicated at all; you just click the 'vault' page; navigate to raid->boss the end.
    Or you could just let all the content reward valor points and let people buy gear with it.

    And on top of that you can stop pretending that something you can buy for real money is a point of pride in game.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Nobody cares. Nobody is impressed.
    It's common to hear that mantra in gaming forums but it's easy to be debunked by the basic facts.

    There is an extreme amount of wow players who are VERY interested in raiding progress.

    Stating that competition and progress in general does not matter to be fair: defies that.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It's common to hear that mantra in gaming forums but it's easy to be debunked by the basic facts.

    There is an extreme amount of wow players who are VERY interested in raiding progress.

    Stating that competition and progress in general does not matter to be fair defies that.
    This is a very simple yes or no question: Can I buy progress with cash?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    This kind of topics allways seem like its from the perspective of a seasonal raider that wants to gear ASAP and gives a big F about 99% of the regular players.

    I rather like to play for 8-10 weeks each tier to be done with gearing, instead of having gearing done in 2 weeks
    That's a strawman. Nowhere did I state I want this to be fast; besides: this can be slower for a lot of people; it does not give loot AT ALL until week 4 and the lucky people of the current system (who get a lot of loot in the first 2-3 weeks) may get much less loot now.

    I actually agree with you that it should not be fast; it should be the right amount of 'fast'(or slow); I want it to be fair that's all (meaning: to reflect skill as well (that's why I want it to give guaranteed loot from a boss but only if it's killed multiple times)).

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Or you could just let all the content reward valor points and let people buy gear with it.

    And on top of that you can stop pretending that something you can buy for real money is a point of pride in game.
    That keeps the potential problem of getting the loot of bosses you haven't killed multiple times. Multiple kills is solid proof of skill because the 1st kill of guild is usually reckless but on the 3rd they probably know what they're doing (unless of course you mean "bake in the 3 kills in the old system" but that's basically the same system anyway so I don't argue with that).

    And I've already debunked the "you can just pay to win" argument; just because there is some shit: we won't go out of our way to make everything shit; that just makes even more shit in overall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    This is a very simple yes or no question: Can I buy progress with cash?
    Answered above (and already before).
    Last edited by epigramx; 2022-01-14 at 02:06 PM.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That keeps the potential problem of getting the loot of bosses you haven't killed multiple times. Multiple kills is solid proof of skill because the 1st kill of guild is usually reckless but on the 3rd they probably know what they're doing (unless of course you mean "bake in the 3 kills in the old system" but that's basically the same system anyway so I don't argue with that).

    And I've already debunked the "you can just pay to win" argument; just because there is some shit: we won't go out of our way to make everything shit; that just makes even more shit in overall.
    Can I buy a carry to multiple kills with real world money? Yes.

    But your argument is that I shouldn't be allowed to buy that gear with a currency I earned BY PLAYING THE GAME.

    That is why you aren't dealing with the real world. Your ideas are incoherent so long as you simultaneously maintain that I can spend cash to buy gear and that I should not be allowed to buy gear with currency earned by playing content.

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    There is no prestige whatsoever in a game where I can buy my way to everything, so why should we throttle the game design based on your fantasy?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    your argument is that I shouldn't be allowed to buy that gear with a currency I earned
    That argument is easily debunked. You also collect copper in the game; you don't buy sylvanas mythic loot with copper; you buy sylvanas loot with the appropriate currency.

    The system must be fair; it should reflect skill and effort; killing something 3 times and getting guaranteed loot from it is fair and not annoying and a good sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    no prestige whatsoever in a game where I can buy my way to everything
    The "pay to win exists so everything is pointless" has been debunked already here (mainly because it's effectively a form of "if something is not perfect then: ruin everything anyway"),

    but I will add another angle about it that I know about and it's conclusive in terms of that: you can check theirs logs to see if they were carried.

    And besides those technical factors: look at how players behave: they are EXTREMELY impressed with the world-first guilds; that's true prestige.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  7. #87
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Such feature was called "Valor points" back when Wow was on it's peak. It was removed, because Blizzard decided, that it was soooooo boring to be able to work towards your goal. Don't get me wrong. My opinion: RNG isn't bad - RNG-gating is. RNG - is feature, that should make each gaming session different - not gate your rewards behind arbitrary unknown amount of attempts, causing Skinner chamber effect.
    I miss Valor Points... even if you failed to get any loot from a boss, at least you got Valor Points. A "tangible" record of progress towards getting guaranteed gear. Sigh...

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That argument is easily debunked. You also collect copper in the game; you don't buy sylvanas mythic loot with copper; you buy sylvanas loot with the appropriate currency.

    The system must be fair; it should reflect skill and effort; killing something 3 times and getting guaranteed loot from it is fair and not annoying and a good sport.
    The game does not reflect skill and effort now, so building a system based on those concepts is to build on delusion. Ideas for the game have to be rooted in the reality of the game. The reality is that carries are cheap and easy to buy with cold hard cash, and as a result there is no actual prestige associated with any PvE content. That's the truth. That's reality. It may be fun to mentally model what the game should be like if it was totally different, but it isn't, so don't expect people to take your ideas seriously when they are constructed on a delusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    And besides those technical factors: look at how players behave: they are EXTREMELY impressed with the world-first guilds; that's true prestige.
    Gee, I wonder why that could be... maybe because I can't pay cash to get a world first carry. Thanks for proving my point.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The game does not reflect skill and effort now

    carries are cheap
    I conclusively debunked that but to recap,

    1) Logs prove if you are a carry,

    2) Just because something is partly shit: it's not an excuse to make everything else shit; we can have an improved system even if limited problems exist (like "carries").

    3) Prestige is conclusively gigantic in WoW because hundreds of thousands of people follow the race to world first (among other gametypes) and care about their own guild's performance as well.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  10. #90
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    As I understand the OP's system, it seems like a single boss kill essentially opens up a non-decaying or endless albeit slow stream of loot from said bosses' loot table. If that basic summation is true, then I'd probably agree this loot system wouldn't be great and would be detrimental to a longer-term commitment to the game on an average player basis. To be quite honest, I think WoW's current implementation for loot is mostly okay, although I think this more recent "Vault" idea probably needs more iteration to perfect.

    The basic gist of "loot" in any MMO really boils down to "successfully kill a boss, get a chance for loot drop from the boss." You don't really want to put too many layers of abstraction between that system and the general impetus for an average player to do the content (beyond the fun value). I'm all for various forms of bad luck protection where the gods of RNG don't shine upon a person, which is why I like the Vault and generally liked the re-roll tokens you could previously buy to give you a second chance on a critical loot roll for any given boss. The old JP/VP system also worked as long as it was carefully curated but did run the risk of making comparable gear too easy to acquire in some cases. I'm also okay with some non-raid tasks, like Timewalking, awarding the random piece of raid-quality gear; but I think this should be kept at a premium, and not really constitute a dependable method of gearing (which I would say it currently doesn't).
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I can't pay cash to get a world first carry.
    Irrelevant if you are 1st or 10000th. You can't pay to be a good raider either unless you want to be a good raider.

    People aren't stupid; they know if you're a carry; prestige is 0 for carries.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  12. #92
    Bad-luck protection is nice. And I don't see anything inherently wrong with a system like this. Kill a boss, get a boss token that week, regardless of whether or not you get a piece of loot from it. Accrue enough tokens over several weeks, get your pick out of that boss's loot table.

    A system like that would make all players feel like they're working toward something when they're raiding, especially those players who might suffer from long strings of bad luck without getting any drops, something that's somewhat offset by the number of opportunities one has to get loot per week in a tier, but bad-luck protection and that continuous feeling of progression each week on top of that would make the whole thing feel at least a little bit better. If you kill a boss that week, you deserve something more than just the satisfaction of doing it, you know? For people who aren't lucky enough for that something to be a big ol' piece of gear, then I feel like at least a fraction of a gear piece should suffice for something.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I conclusively debunked that but to recap,

    1) Logs prove if you are a carry,
    Logs aren't what award gear, so it is irrelevant to the conversation.

    ]2) Just because something is partly shit: it's not an excuse to make everything else shit; we can have an improved system even if limited problems exist (like "carries").
    You aren't getting it. This is not "Let's make it worse". This is "This is the reality of the game, so new systems should square with that reality, not be built on things which are flatly untrue just because we don't like that those things are untrue." It's a simple undeniable fact that there is no prestige associated with having gear from anything, since the gear is functionally purchasable with real money, and actually the very system you are proposing would make it EASIER to do carries. People would sell them in sets of three to guarantee you could get the gear you wanted.

    Your idea has to be rooted in the reality of the game, not in personal delusions about what is or is not prestigious.

    3) Prestige is conclusively gigantic in WoW because hundreds of thousands of people follow the race to world first (among other gametypes) and care about their own guild's performance as well.
    You can't buy a world first, and we don't determine world first by looking at gear, so this is so far removed that I don't know why you are wasting your time and my time rambling about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Irrelevant if you are 1st or 10000th. You can't pay to be a good raider either unless you want to be a good raider.

    People aren't stupid; they know if you're a carry; prestige is 0 for carries.
    I can pay for the gear, and the topic here is gear acquisition. Your system rests on the idea that gear = prestige. BUT IT DOESN'T. That's a FACT.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    a single boss kill essentially opens up a non-decaying or endless albeit slow stream of loot from said bosses' loot table
    3 kills of a boss and: 3 boss-points are subtracted after you pick 1 piece of gear from 1 boss. It only gives 1 piece of gear per week in total from any selected boss in the game (even if they killed 100 bosses: only 1 piece is rewarded per week).

    It implies it doesn't give loot at all until the 4th week; it's not a fast system or a slow system; it's a fairer system.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2022-01-14 at 02:39 PM.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  15. #95
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    3 kills of a boss and: 3 boss-points are subtracted after you pick 1 piece of gear from 1 boss. It only gives 1 piece of gear per week in total from any selected boss in the game (even if they killed 100 bosses: only 1 piece is rewarded per week).

    It implies it doesn't give loot at all until the 4th week; it's not a fast system or a slow system; it's a fairer system.
    As long as it has a means of decay that's better, I would say. But then the question would be how this is differentiated against the current Vault system?
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    it's not a fast system or a slow system; it's a fairer system.
    And that's the part that's up for debate.

  17. #97
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Such feature was called "Valor points" back when Wow was on it's peak. It was removed, because Blizzard decided, that it was soooooo boring to be able to work towards your goal. Don't get me wrong. My opinion: RNG isn't bad - RNG-gating is. RNG - is feature, that should make each gaming session different - not gate your rewards behind arbitrary unknown amount of attempts, causing Skinner chamber effect.
    lololol what? wow was at its peak in cata/mop?

    well you leanr new stuff every day.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Your system rests on the idea that gear = prestige
    That's a strawman argument. I never told you that gear equals prestige; I told you that skill should be reflected on gear; I have already debunked multiple times and with multiple arguments that "pay to win" is not a reason to abandon all efforts for a better game.

    In conclusion:

    1) Even if you fool a few people initially with "pay to win" that you have prestige: it's a small problem since you can be easily debunked that you didn't earn it with skill.

    2) Even if you are not debunked to a few that you "paid to win": that's still not a reason to abandon improvements to the game; nothing is ever perfect.

    3) And most importantly: it's a fallacious position that prestige doesn't exist outside the world-first; people care even about the top 10000000.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  19. #99
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    lololol what? wow was at its peak in cata/mop?

    well you leanr new stuff every day.
    He may have been referring to the quality of gameplay, not the number of players.

  20. #100
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You can't buy a world first, and we don't determine world first by looking at gear, so this is so far removed that I don't know why you are wasting your time and my time rambling about it.
    You can buy anything. I'm sure if I were crazy or rich enough to give a world-first guild thousands of dollars, they'd let me take up a spot in one of their world-first runs or what-have-you. There's no real way to design a system in this context that can somehow weed out the black/gray market pressure.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

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