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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As long as it has a means of decay that's better, I would say. But then the question would be how this is differentiated against the current Vault system?
    Yes and perhaps it could decay further (not just by the -3 subtraction I mentioned but even automatically in some cases (e.g. -1 every week after 4 weeks etc.)).

    Regarding the current vault: it doesn't have to exist at all; it could just be replaced by this; it's 1 item per week from each one of them anyway.

    You could have both system of course though: I guess the devs might want to reduce the total loot dropped across the game somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    And that's the part that's up for debate.
    It's possible, but without argument against it, I don't see the issue.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    You can buy anything. I'm sure if I were crazy or rich enough to give a world-first guild thousands of dollars, they'd let me take up a spot in one of their world-first runs or what-have-you. There's no real way to design a system in this context that can somehow weed out the black/gray market pressure.
    That guild would be at a SERIOUS disadvantage having to take you along, so it's such a far fetched idea that it isn't worth entertaining. These guys' livelihoods rest on the world first race, so the amount of money to do that would be absurd. It's not realistic and not worth considering.

    The best way to design a system to weed that out is... to ban it... and actually police it. But WoW not only allows it, they sanction it, profit from it, and let their developers do it. There is a world of difference between a shady, under the table business of selling carries that runs real risks, and a system where it is allowed and encouraged by Blizzard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Yes and perhaps it could decay further (not just by the -3 subtraction I mentioned but even automatically in some cases (e.g. -1 every week after 4 weeks etc.)).

    Regarding the current vault: it doesn't have to exist at all; it could just be replaced by this; it's 1 item per week from each one of them anyway.

    You could have both system of course though: I guess the devs might want to reduce the total loot dropped across the game somehow..
    Or we could just... let people buy gear with valor points.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Or we could just... let people buy gear with valor points.
    Already proven wrong or irrelevant:

    1) It does not reflect the boss; why should you get sylvanas mythic gear for killing the first boss?

    2) If you do require 3 kills like the OP method: then it's the same system anyway so it's fine.

    3) If you only require 1 kill: then it's a worse proof of skill because the experience is lower.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Already proven wrong or irrelevant:

    1) It does not reflect the boss; why should you get sylvanas mythic gear for killing the first boss?
    For the third or fourth time, limit it to the loot table from the bosses you already killed. It's really telling that your tactic here is to keep ignoring that detail because it is inconvenient for your argument.

    2) If you do require 3 kills like the OP method: then it's the same system anyway so it's fine.

    3) If you only require 1 kill: then it's a worse proof of skill because the experience is lower.
    In no case is it a proof of skill so this is a moot point. You can always buy it with real money easily. That is the delusional point. Why would we build a system on something that doesn't exist?

    Maybe nobody every clued you into this, but just repeating your argument over and over and over again is not a substitute for addressing actual criticisms of your argument.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  5. #105
    I will stop responding to that person because the pay-to-win counterargument has already been debunked to a reasonable extend so a final recap on that. Pay-to-win can be easily exposed with raiding logs or just observing the person so their prestige is on thin ice and even if they manage to fool a few people that they won by paying: it's still a limited problem and not a reason to abandon all efforts to improve the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    your tactic here is to keep ignoring
    I'll actually respond for the last time to your personal attacks because I figured out something even more damning about your position: if "I can pay-to-win anyway" is such a strong argument against this looting system then why is it not a strong argument against your valor system as well? (don't answer; it's a rhetorical question and I have already covered your position multiple times)
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Then your opposition is without any value. I present a good solution with arguments and your only response is "it's wrong" (and I make your position a favor to not include that you also personally attack people).

    For that statement to have any value you have to explain WHY it is wrong; you said nowhere WHY it is wrong; since you didn't: it is assumed very correct.
    Ah, I see the problem, you don't know how to read. That does explain a lot of what's going on in this thread.

  7. #107
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That guild would be at a SERIOUS disadvantage having to take you along, so it's such a far fetched idea that it isn't worth entertaining. These guys' livelihoods rest on the world first race, so the amount of money to do that would be absurd. It's not realistic and not worth considering.

    The best way to design a system to weed that out is... to ban it... and actually police it. But WoW not only allows it, they sanction it, profit from it, and let their developers do it. There is a world of difference between a shady, under the table business of selling carries that runs real risks, and a system where it is allowed and encouraged by Blizzard.
    Hey now, for all you know I could already be world-first material, they could actually be improved by my presence there. But yes, realistically it would be a serious disadvantage - but for enough money they'd probably train me or, more likely, get one of their own to play as my account or somesuch. I'm just saying that's there really no upper ceiling for what can be bought in this context, from loot to world first's and beyond.

    This is of course neither here nor there as concerns this whole looting system discussion, though I do agree with the notion of actively policing the behavior as opposed to passively endorsing it.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  8. #108
    I have the answers.

    Get rid of loot vault. No bringing back bonus rolls. No shitty point system as described above.

    You go to dungeon or raid, you kill da boss, loot drops. HOOORAY. You roll on da loot, u win da loot or you dont. If your loot doesnt drop or you dont win, you try again another time. Reputation gear from vendor available as well from farming rep from whatever new rep there is.

    For pvp it will be vendor based gear from doing bg or arena with pvp benefits for the gear and pvp benefits dont work in raids or dungeons. hooooooray.

    This system of i didnt get what i want so give me more chances to get what i want, that did not work so now give me system that gurantee i get what i want, I PAY MY 15 dolla bich. let me log in and get my phat loots so i can look cool on my store bought mount while i afk in Org shit needs to go.

    Not everyone gets everything, some people will get X item, some people wont get X item, even tho both tried to get X item. THATS HOW ITS SUPPOSED TO BE for fuk sake. Thats part of what makes it fun. Yes people who put in more time will get more things, that is also how it is supposed to be, thats everything that is life but thats not always how it works. Some people will do it 1 time and get X item, cool you may or may not be that person. Again, makes it interesting and fun.

    Thanks.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I will stop responding to that person because the pay-to-win counterargument has already been debunked to a reasonable extend so a final recap on that. Pay-to-win can be easily exposed with raiding logs or just observing the person so their prestige is on thin ice and even if they manage to fool a few people that they won by paying: it's still a limited problem and not a reason to abandon all efforts to improve the game.




    I'll actually respond for the last time to your personal attacks because I figured out something even more damning about your position: if "I can pay-to-win anyway" is such a strong argument against this looting system then why is it not a strong argument against your valor system as well? (don't answer; it's a rhetorical question and I have already covered your position multiple times)
    My idea is not based on the myth that gear = prestige. Your system is. This is a fact that you refuse to engage with, and that's why you would rather run away than address it. You keep rambling about raid logs, which have nothing whatsoever to do with gear and is completely irrelevant.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  10. #110
    It doesn't really matter what you change looting to. Either it allows players to gear quicker than they can right now, something Blizzard would never allow as it affect their bottom line, or it makes it harder to gear than now, something all players would never be in favor of.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I will stop responding to that person because the pay-to-win counterargument has already been debunked to a reasonable extend so a final recap on that. Pay-to-win can be easily exposed with raiding logs or just observing the person so their prestige is on thin ice and even if they manage to fool a few people that they won by paying: it's still a limited problem and not a reason to abandon all efforts to improve the game.

    I'll actually respond for the last time to your personal attacks because I figured out something even more damning about your position: if "I can pay-to-win anyway" is such a strong argument against this looting system then why is it not a strong argument against your valor system as well? (don't answer; it's a rhetorical question and I have already covered your position multiple times)
    I can make this really, really simple:

    You: We should make a system that lets people get gear faster.
    Me: How about just points everyone can spend.
    You: No, you need to kill the boss first.
    Me: Why?
    You: Because having the gear should be prestigious.
    Me: But you can buy carries, so the gear doesn't have prestige anyway.
    You: Having gear should be prestigious.
    Me: I just told you, you can buy carries so nobody considers the actual gear prestigious.
    You: Having gear should be prestigious.
    Me: But it isn't and your system doesn't make it prestigious.
    You: Having gear should be prestigious.
    Me: But it isn't...
    You: Having gear should be prestigious.
    Me: Listen, currently it is not and your system doesn't make it so.
    You: Bzzt reloading battery, now fully charged. Having gear should be prestigious
    Last edited by NineSpine; 2022-01-14 at 04:30 PM.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  12. #112
    The Patient
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    So, from having read the thread, it would appear that the OP is suggesting that a new 'currency' should come in (which is effectively what this is - you earn points and then spend them on things. It's a currency), which only allows you to buy loot from a particular boss' loot table once you have killed said boss at least 3 times.

    As several other people have suggested, the better solution would be to simply allow this transaction to be carried out using Valour Points.

    The OP's counter-argument is that you would then be able to buy loot from bosses that you haven't killed at least 3 times.

    So, if I am understanding correctly, it wouldn't be one new 'currency' coming in, it would have to be one new 'currency' PER BOSS, PER RAID. That is the only way under OP's system to prevent you from buying Sylvanas loot using your 'currency' from, say, Fatescribe. If OP refutes this, then the whole thing can be solved with VP.

    Alternatively - allow VP to be used to buy items directly from bosses' loot tables, and limit the items available to bosses that you have killed. This is effectively the way the Great Vault works, so it would be a minor change at best.

    Whether or not this would be better for the game is a separate matter.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Goat7 View Post
    let me log in and get my phat loots
    That's a strawman argument. This system may give LESS loot that the current one; it gives NOTHING until the 4th week; after that: the ones who are lucky now (and get a lot of drops from the vault in the first weeks) will get less loot in total.

    It's not designed to be fast; it's designed to be fair (that's why it requires 3 kills at least so that you have proved you know what you're doing); it can be even slower with more required kills if you must go that route if that's determined correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Very Tired View Post
    It doesn't really matter what you change looting to. Either it allows players to gear quicker than they can right now, something Blizzard would never allow as it affect their bottom line, or it makes it harder to gear than now, something all players would never be in favor of.
    That's a fallacy. The way the loot drops is extremely important; if it's totally random: most people are frustrated; if it can be targetted: a lot of people would love it.

    It may give LESS loot in total and people may prefer it that way because it can be more deterministic if they need it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You: We should make a system that lets people get gear faster.
    I do not respond to strawman arguments. You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with a lie you constructed in your head; I advise you to stop responding to everything else I say to everybody else here and go read what I said instead; there is no point anywhere that I want it to be faster and I have said multiple times it may give LESS loot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    one new 'currency' PER BOSS, PER RAID. That is the only way under OP's system to prevent you from buying Sylvanas loot using your 'currency' from, say, Fatescribe.
    Correct, and if you imply it is very complex: it's not. You would just click on the vault and pick a boss (the same way you navigate in the adventure journal now) and you'll see your 'kill points' for that boss; it doesn't have to spam the currencies page of the player for no reason especially since every boss in the game is recorded; if people/the devs want to give some kind of literal token instead: it's the same system though probably unnecessary.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  14. #114
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    You can't fix a system that was meant to be broken.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    You can't fix a system that was meant to be broken.
    If you imply they want a level of "healthy randomness", this is not actually denied by this system. It's objectively a limited system because it only works for 1 item for a whole week (and gives nothing for 3 weeks) and all the rest loot dropping mechanics during the encounters still work so you can have your better vault and keep your randomness to their respective limits.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  16. #116
    Just add ML back. We don't need (even more) convoluted solutions to fix problems that aren't problems.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Just add ML back. We don't need (even more) convoluted solutions to fix problems that aren't problems.
    Various problems here. Master looter does not guarantee your guild won't get shit or lopsided-dropped loot so it doesn't solve the core issue itself (and it becomes ninja-looter in pugs and shit guilds).

    Most importantly: this system is not convoluted at all; it's extremely simple; you click the new vault and pick a boss who has 3 points in the same way you navigate the adventure journal now.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  18. #118
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    If you imply they want a level of "healthy randomness", this is not actually denied by this system. It's objectively a limited system because it only works for 1 item for a whole week (and gives nothing for 3 weeks) and all the rest loot dropping mechanics during the encounters still work so you can have your better vault and keep your randomness to their respective limits.
    The system that existed before the crappy one we got in Legion worked just fine. Thing is they won't ever return to that because they've convinced themselves and sadly the player base has fallen for the lie that doing multiple runs of the same dungeon at higher difficulties with randomized gear drops is a better way to gear than grinding badges/points to get gear and jump into raiding. Why did they go to this formula? That's easy to answer, money for as long as the player doesn't get what they need for their character they'll keep on playing until they get it. There is a caveat to that though for if the player doesn't get what they need/want within a reasonable amount of time they'll just quit playing which is what's happening now.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Various problems here. Master looter does not guarantee your guild won't get shit or lopsided-dropped loot so it doesn't solve the core issue itself (and it becomes ninja-looter in pugs and shit guilds).

    Most importantly: this system is not convoluted at all; it's extremely simple; you click the new vault and pick a boss who has 3 points in the same way you navigate the adventure journal now.
    1.) The lack of deterministic loot in raids isn't a problem.
    2.) There is nothing more simple than: Boss dies -> Drops loot. This does not need to change because of the first point I made.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That's a strawman argument. This system may give LESS loot that the current one; it gives NOTHING until the 4th week; after that: the ones who are lucky now (and get a lot of drops from the vault in the first weeks) will get less loot in total.

    It's not designed to be fast; it's designed to be fair (that's why it requires 3 kills at least so that you have proved you know what you're doing); it can be even slower with more required kills if you must go that route if that's determined correct.

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    That's a fallacy. The way the loot drops is extremely important; if it's totally random: most people are frustrated; if it can be targetted: a lot of people would love it.

    It may give LESS loot in total and people may prefer it that way because it can be more deterministic if they need it.

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    I do not respond to strawman arguments. You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with a lie you constructed in your head; I advise you to stop responding to everything else I say to everybody else here and go read what I said instead; there is no point anywhere that I want it to be faster and I have said multiple times it may give LESS loot.

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    Correct, and if you imply it is very complex: it's not. You would just click on the vault and pick a boss (the same way you navigate in the adventure journal now) and you'll see your 'kill points' for that boss; it doesn't have to spam the currencies page of the player for no reason especially since every boss in the game is recorded; if people/the devs want to give some kind of literal token instead: it's the same system though probably unnecessary.
    Have you considered that if everyone is making "strawman" arguments, the problem is how you are presenting your ideas?

    You said that you want people to be able to get the gear faster. That's the entire point of your system. If I want the Sylvanas bow, I can get it faster. Now you are calling that a strawman. If you can't get the gear faster, what the hell is even the point of your system? With your idea, I can get the piece of gear I want faster, right? Or is it wrong? Maybe you should present your ideas more clearly if they are causing this much confusion.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

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