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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    The system that existed before the crappy one we got in Legion worked just fine. Thing is they won't ever return to that because they've convinced themselves and sadly the player base has fallen for the lie that doing multiple runs of the same dungeon at higher difficulties with randomized gear drops is a better way to gear than grinding badges/points to get gear and jump into raiding. Why did they go to this formula? That's easy to answer, money for as long as the player doesn't get what they need for their character they'll keep on playing until they get it. There is a caveat to that though for if the player doesn't get what they need/want within a reasonable amount of time they'll just quit playing which is what's happening now.
    That argument would work if it wasn't historically inaccurate. There was never a tier with no randomness. Those tokens and valor points were always limited in what they would reward the character and randomness during the encounter-kill always played a big role.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  2. #122
    Best system was wrath

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    1.) The lack of deterministic loot in raids isn't a problem.
    2.) There is nothing more simple than: Boss dies -> Drops loot. This does not need to change because of the first point I made.
    I tend to agree with this. It's significantly less fun to kill a dragon and get a coupon for a sword, rather than a sword. If the loot people are getting is a problem, the best solution is probably to fix the tables, add behind the scenes bad luck protection, that sort of thing. More convoluted systems isn't a way to solve problems.

    I would like a universal valor point system to upgrade gear, rather than buy gear, though.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    1.) The lack of deterministic loot in raids isn't a problem.
    2.) There is nothing more simple than: Boss dies -> Drops loot. This does not need to change because of the first point I made.
    Your first point has no basis on nothing other than your word; it's an objective fact that a lot of people hate they fact they may get nothing from a boss they have killed multiple times; you can claim they are "crybabies" all you want (because I suspect that's where you're going with this) but: that's also something you have to base on an argument and not just an abstract attack against them.

    The second point is irrelevant; it's also simple to delete the game and not release another expansion so: simplicity is not proof of improvement; and it's not that complex to pick a boss from the journal anyway so it's not even correct on the claim it's complex.

    This is not about getting more loot (it may give less loot) and it's not about being too simplistic (though it is simple too) but about being fair; you have people who killed something multiple times and they had great skill in it; why is it wrong to get an item?
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Your first point has no basis on nothing other than your word; it's an objective fact that a lot of people hate they fact they may get nothing from a boss they have killed multiple times; you can claim they are "crybabies" all you want (because I suspect that's where you're going with this) but: that's also something you have to base on an argument and not just an abstract attack against them.
    This can be fixed with better loot tables, bad luck protection, all sorts of behind the scenes things that don't introduce new systems to manage.

    The second point is irrelevant; it's also simple to delete the game and not release another expansion so: simplicity is not proof of improvement; and it's not that complex to pick a boss from the journal anyway so it's not even correct on the claim it's complex.
    Unnecessary complexity is bad game design. That isn't up for debate. That's a universal rule of game design.

    This is not about getting more loot (it may give less loot) and it's not about being too simplistic (though it is simple too) but about being fair; you have people who killed something multiple times and they had great skill in it; why is it wrong to get an item?
    Less "OH MY GOD THE THING I WANTED DROPPED" moments is not the positive you keep spinning it as.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  6. #126
    I've yet to see any "how to solve X" post, that is actually working to solve an actual issue.


    Every single time it's just lazy/greedy people wanting to feed into their laziness/greed.
    If I don't respond to something you tagged me in, assume one of two things.
    1) Your post was too stupid to acknowledge, or
    2) Your post is cringe and not worth replying to.

    Alternatively, if it happens a lot I probably have you blocked due to one of the above things. Thank you.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You said that you want people to be able to get the gear faster.
    Stop responding to a strawman you have constructed to replace me. I said multiple times that the system may give less loot and the ways it can give less loot are:

    1) The ones who are very lucky now may get much less loot; they get NOTHING from the vault for 3 weeks; so they may get something on the 4th.

    2) They must have killed something 3 times; so if they kill sylvanas once now: they may get her items immediately; not with this system.

    3) Most importantly: the system can be tuned to give even less loot: if they determine 4 kills are needed: so be it

    To begin with: this topic has little to do with "fast" or "slow" loot; it's about fair loot; stop assuming.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    This is not about getting more loot (it may give less loot) and it's not about being too simplistic (though it is simple too) but about being fair; you have people who killed something multiple times and they had great skill in it; why is it wrong to get an item?
    Because RNG is a fickle bitch and that's just the loot lottery upon which WoW operates. For all the people who don't get something, there are equal amounts of people who get everything they want. It's not all feast or famine... across a long period of time the RNG factors even out to the point where the loot may as well be deterministic because everything's tradable anyway. The only thing I don't like about the current system is the lack of ML which takes away an important control guilds had over the RNG loot lottery.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Stop responding to a strawman you have constructed to replace me. I said multiple times that the system may give less loot and the ways it can give less loot are:

    1) The ones who are very lucky now may get much less loot; they get NOTHING from the vault for 3 weeks; so they may get something on the 4th.

    2) They must have killed something 3 times; so if they kill sylvanas once now: they may get her items immediately; not with this system.

    3) Most importantly: the system can be tuned to give even less loot: if they determine 4 kills are needed: so be it

    To begin with: this topic has little to do with "fast" or "slow" loot; it's about fair loot; stop assuming.
    So now your system replaces all loot and I can't just kill the boss and get the loot? That wasn't your original proposition. Originally, you said this would just replace the vault. That's fucking awful. I don't want to go three weeks and get NOTHING. Oh my god, this is SO MUCH worse than I thought it was.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Because RNG is a fickle bitch

    The only thing I don't like about the current system is the lack of ML
    OK it's conclusive now that you contradict your own thoughts. At first you claim "JUST BECAUSE" which is in itself a non-argument; I do not care "that's how it is now"; I'm trying to make a better system and if a system is bad in wow now: it can go fuck itself.

    And the contradiction is that you then immediately follow with "BUT I LIKE TO LIMIT IT WITH ML"; well I have a better solution for you; don't even limit it and make it more deterministic (even the people who want the valor back are more right).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Because RNG is a fickle bitch and that's just the loot lottery upon which WoW operates. For all the people who don't get something, there are equal amounts of people who get everything they want. It's not all feast or famine... across a long period of time the RNG factors even out to the point where the loot may as well be deterministic because everything's tradable anyway. The only thing I don't like about the current system is the lack of ML which takes away an important control guilds had over the RNG loot lottery.
    It's worth noting that there are people that just get fucked by the RNG, and that doesn't feel good and is unnecessary.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  12. #132
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That argument would work if it wasn't historically inaccurate. There was never a tier with no randomness. Those tokens and valor points were always limited in what they would reward the character and randomness during the encounter-kill always played a big role.
    That's a lie. In every expansion that had either badges or points you knew exactly what you were earning points for as you could decide what you wanted to get yourself from vendors. Now? Good luck with the loot pinata.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    So now your system replaces all loot
    I will now stop responding to your strawman arguments. There is little time in a day and you keep doing it; you are told something; you return with an imaginary version of events because it makes you feel it will be easily answered.

    Nobody told you to replace everything regarding loot (only the vault).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  14. #134
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balmong View Post
    Best system was wrath
    Cataclysm was good too. I forget about Mists and Warlords a bit but those possibly weren't as bad as what we have now. The Challenge Mode dungeons were better than anything Mythic dungeons have been.

  15. #135
    Epic!
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    Bring back justice/valor and offer supplementary loot for select slots.
    Loot problem resolved.
    Measurable, targetable, easy to understand.
    Switch up the offerings each tier, where maybe you have belt, gloves, boot, back, trinket, and ring, then next tier it's wrist, pants, back, offhand, trinket and ring.
    Just some slots, not all of them, to supplement gearing through your chosen progression system.

    None of this "I killed the boss 3 times and didn't get anything so let me choose the exact item I want" nonsense.
    Buy a supplementary piece, or wait until RNG shines on you.
    Everyone has a story of a piece they never got.
    In Wrath, Envoy dropped only once in 20+ weekly kills and it went to RLs best friend (who was dogshit at hunter).
    I didn't even get a Nathria weapon token until 5 months in; I was stuck using a garbage one I found in M+.
    But that's fine, it's part of the game.
    It didn't stop me from progressing in the content because one or two items don't make or break good play.

    Badge system to for supplementary pieces, in a measured and calculatable state, and everything would be fine, IMO.
    But, also, I've gotten to raidlogging status faster than ever before this xpac, so personally I don't see a loot problem like others.
    Maybe it's just me, though.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    That's a lie. In every expansion that had either badges or points you knew exactly what you were earning points for as you could decide what you wanted to get yourself from vendors. Now? Good luck with the loot pinata.
    Name one final boss in the history of the game who had 0 RNG on its drops during the kill.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I will now stop responding to your strawman arguments. There is little time in a day and you keep doing it; you are told something; you return with an imaginary version of events.

    Nobody told you to replace everything regarding loot (only the vault).
    If the drops work the same way they do now, how does someone end up getting less gear with your system than they do now?

    Stop whining about strawmen and be clear and we won't have these problems.

    Let's recap:
    1. It lets you get the gear you want faster, but it's not faster.
    2. It will give you less gear overall, but not less gear overall.

    Stop blaming everyone else for your inability to describe your system coherently.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Name one final boss in the history of the game who had 0 RNG on its drops during the kill.
    You aren't proposing zero RNG. You are proposing the ability to target pieces you want, which is what emblems did in WOTLK.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    None of this "I killed the boss 3 times and didn't get anything so let me choose the exact item I want" nonsense.
    It sounds good to attack an argument with fireworks like that, but that response is objectively not an argument.

    You have to prove why such a fair and objectively cumulatively-rewarding system is "nonsense".
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It's worth noting that there are people that just get fucked by the RNG, and that doesn't feel good and is unnecessary.
    I'd actually be on board with a raid loot vendor for every .5 patch. The only downside, imo, is that this would strongly discourage farm once everybody got the items they were looking for.

  20. #140
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Name one final boss in the history of the game who had 0 RNG on its drops during the kill.
    You're changing the argument. Try again.

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