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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    You're changing the argument. Try again.
    It's the exact same topic; you claimed there was no loot randomness before Legion; there was EXTREME randomness before legion at loot drops (albeit perhaps less if it's limited with the systems you want back).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  2. #142
    If you could farm items you wanted from dungeons and actually upgrade them all the way instead of relying on the vault that would be a big help.


    Still curious to see how this set crafting thing works out because it has potential but I suspect the devil will be in the details and this may be another patch that it is 5x better in the .5 version 4 months from now
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    You say it like VP wasn't complained about all the time back in the day.

    I mean I agree it was the superior system, but its not like Blizzard decide on its own that VP was bad. Complaints about 'wellfare epics' and gear being too easy was pretty rampant during TBC - MoP.
    To be honest, not sure why people still complain about wellfare epics. That's already been a norm for the past... EVERY expansion.

    There's a reason why VP is the superior system. It doesn't just cater to the self-proclaimed elitists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  4. #144
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It's the exact same topic; you claimed there was no loot randomness before Legion; there was EXTREME randomness before legion at loot drops (albeit perhaps less if it's limited with the systems you want back).
    Nope! You're changing what I said to push your argument. Not gonna argue with you any further.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Correct, and if you imply it is very complex: it's not. You would just click on the vault and pick a boss (the same way you navigate in the adventure journal now) and you'll see your 'kill points' for that boss; it doesn't have to spam the currencies page of the player for no reason especially since every boss in the game is recorded; if people/the devs want to give some kind of literal token instead: it's the same system though probably unnecessary.
    I'm not saying it's complex, just that it's clunky and wholly unnecessary. The same goal could be achieved with Valour Points as they exist now, and a vendor to sell you the items you're eligible for. Introducing 8-10 new currencies every raid tier would be massive bloat.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    To be honest, not sure why people still complain about wellfare epics. That's already been a norm for the past... EVERY expansion.
    Heh the "welfare epics" meme was actually pretty silly, because I'm pretty sure the complainers didn't pay that much attention to the ilevel, but to the COLOR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    I'm not saying it's complex, just that it's clunky and wholly unnecessary. The same goal could be achieved with Valour Points as they exist now, and a vendor to sell you the items you're eligible for. Introducing 8-10 new currencies every raid tier would be massive bloat.
    I don't see it as clunky. You just pick a boss like navigating the in-game "Adventure Guide".

    It's not a currency either to spam the currencies list; it's numbers on the adventure guide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Nope! You're changing what I said to push your argument. Not gonna argue with you any further.
    You can do what you want, but I don't get what you mean. You appear to explicitly claim there was no loot-randomness before legion and you are told there was a lot of loot-randomness before legion during the boss kill and you return with "that's off topic"(???).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  7. #147
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    I think collecting ressources from playing the game in order to turn them in and take your pick among a few choice power-ups is a valid suggestion.
    I'd love to see it adapted into a gearing style more reminiscent of Dota where you have the option to pick up a few items from shops, do away with the whole gear setup entirely and just let mounts, toys, titles, pets and cosmetics be the rewards for playing - since so many are incapable of seeing the reward in having fun playing together with others accomplishing stuff in videogames - often because gearRNG gets in the way.
    Imo the stat inflation every patch ruins the game as it forces devs to hand out gear for nothing just so new players stand a chance against mobs in whatever is the newest zone introduced to the game. It'd be simpler, more fun and allow for easier tuning and more balancing across the specs and classes, if they just gave everyone stat templates and allowed players to modify them slightly via the shop items and their own talent picks from leveling.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I don't see it as clunky. You just pick a boss like navigating the in-game "Adventure Guide".

    It's not a currency either to spam the currencies list; it's numbers on the adventure guide.
    That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. It is still unnecessary to bring in a brand new system to achieve what an existing system can do with a minor tweak or two, and one which would only involve one currency on the front-end that the player needs to interact with.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. It is still unnecessary to bring in a brand new system to achieve what an existing system can do with a minor tweak or two, and one which would only involve one currency on the front-end that the player needs to interact with.
    Don't get me wrong: I don't actually care that much if what I suggest on the OP text is implemented - mathematically - in another system (and what the player actually does in the boss encounter remains exactly the same).

    My only complain against the valor system is when it's suggested in the form of "just get any boss loot with valor!" because there is great value in rewarding people who killed a (specific-targeted) boss multiple times.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  10. #150
    OP, your idea is a good one. It's something that is done in other games, and it works marvelously.

    However, in the time since I gave up on WoW, I have learned three things:

    1) Blizzard's ability to implement good ideas from other games has been gone for a long time. If they did this, they would find a way to screw it up.

    2) The WoW community is in love with RNG that punishes them. They have convinced themselves the skinner box is a good thing. You constantly see people (including in this very thread) claiming that RNG is a good thing because it makes the drops more exciting... and there are absolutely people who feel that way, but the people who make these arguments are incapable of realizing that they are also people who do not enjoy this system. They believe that because they enjoy it, everyone enjoys it.

    3) Blizzard intentionally retains RNG because it encourages people to farm for loot. They want to encourage people to farm for loot via RNG because they need people to keep going back, they're not capable of making content that's engaging enough to play without rewards to entice players in, and they're incapable of implementing other forms of enticement that actually work without breaking the game.

    Your idea is good, but Blizzard doesn't want it, they're not capable of implementing it without breaking something in the process, and the community doesn't want it.

    I wish you luck, but expect to be disappointed.

  11. #151
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Heh the "welfare epics" meme was actually pretty silly, because I'm pretty sure the complainers didn't pay that much attention to the ilevel, but to the COLOR.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't see it as clunky. You just pick a boss like navigating the in-game "Adventure Guide".

    It's not a currency either to spam the currencies list; it's numbers on the adventure guide.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You can do what you want, but I don't get what you mean. You appear to explicitly claim there was no loot-randomness before legion and you are told there was a lot of loot-randomness before legion during the boss kill and you return with "that's off topic"(???).
    That's not what i said at all. you're intentionally misrepresenting what I said without actually addressing what I said to get you clicks.

  12. #152
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    i don't get why you guys would like to have erverything as soon as possible. what is the point?
    ...Le Poète est semblable au prince des nuées
    Qui hante la tempête e se rit de l'archer;
    Exilé sul le sol au milieu des huées,
    Ses ailes de géant l'empêchent de marcher.

    Charles Baudelaire

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    That's not what i said at all. you're intentionally misrepresenting what I said without actually addressing what I said to get you clicks.
    No there's no such intention so it can only be a misunderstanding. OK I believe what I misunderstood about you is that I thought you claimed there was no randomness but you appear to imply there was STILL rng in the past but it was limited with the systems you want back.

    OK that's not that wrong; but it still doesn't explain why my system is worse than valor and tokens etc; mine might be actually much cleaner because you would open the in-game 'Adventure Guide' and just pick a boss (no token spam).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akta View Post
    i don't get why you guys would like to have erverything as soon as possible. what is the point?
    That's misrepresenting the OP message. The new vault may actually give LESS loot because it gives nothing for 3 weeks and the lucky people of today will have no chances at all at the start. It can also be tuned anyway so one could make it require 4 kills or so to make it even less loot-dropping.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Akta View Post
    i don't get why you guys would like to have erverything as soon as possible. what is the point?
    I don't think the idea was ever "I want my shit now!" like people seem to immediately jump to. It's more a point of "I cleared an endgame encounter in current content and all I got as a drop reward was this middle-finger shaped nothingness. Is there any way to make killing a raid boss feel rewarding even in the absence of a tangible loot drop?"

    Ideas like this aim to answer that question. Sure, it's easy to assume that these kind of ideas and suggestions might come from a place of impatience, but it's coming more from a place of... just wanting to feel like you're consistently accomplishing something each week when you clear this sort of content, or at least working toward accomplishing something.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    lololol what? wow was at its peak in cata/mop?

    well you leanr new stuff every day.
    Valor points were implemented back in WotLK. They just had different names. Like "frost badges" or something. It was Cata, when Blizzard decided to get rid of currency bloat merge all currencies into just two - "current patch currency" and "previous patches currency".

    What I want to say - is that players constantly ask for better bad luck protection. Valor points were THE BEST one. Yeah, lucky RNG could allow you to get gear quicker. But if you were unlucky - at least it wasn't just "Well, Blizzard God has decided, that you're unlucky - just deal with it" - you could work towards your goal and eventually get all your rewards, even if it was slower. Problem is - they were too good, that's why they were removed.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    players constantly ask for better bad luck protection. Valor points were THE BEST one.
    That's a mantra with no meaning, if you don't support it first with tangible arguments. I see no problem with my system; you open the Adventure Guide and navigate to a boss: the end and you keep it fair by requiring at least X kills; you don't even clutter the currencies page of the character with unnecessary badges and valors since they'll just see a number next to each boss on the Adventure Guide.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Akta View Post
    i don't get why you guys would like to have erverything as soon as possible. what is the point?
    Probably because when the game is fundamentally unfun to play people start to focus on the rewards like it is magically going to change something.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    That being said, pvp is like that now but has requirements. So any implementation of this in pve will lead to the exact same effect - buy a boost for whatever requirement, making this effectively pay to win (let's not discuss semanthics). There should still be some incentive to being part of a guild and playing with friends in this mmo, even if it is as little as having to go to a raid every week because RNG.
    Make gear and mounts guild-locked, as in, killing a boss X times allows you to distribute a number of items from said boss' loot table, but only on characters that participated in at least 1 kill in a guild run. The items are technically bound to a character, but they are locked out if your guild doesn't have a kill on the specified boss. Boom, boosts are immediately killed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxos View Post
    When you play the game of MMOs, you win or you go f2p.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    To be honest, not sure why people still complain about wellfare epics. That's already been a norm for the past... EVERY expansion.

    There's a reason why VP is the superior system. It doesn't just cater to the self-proclaimed elitists.
    I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not terribly surprised blizzard went this way.

    Its just like how people used to harp on blizz for cancelling path of the titans, but now everyone hates how blizz has gone so heavy on 'systems', when thats exactly what path of the titans was.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Afrospinach View Post
    when the game is fundamentally unfun to play people start to focus on the rewards
    That's a fallacious statement because it is in essence contradictive. If the rewards system is designed badly: it makes it more unfun; so those things are not separate; maybe it is unfun precisely because it also has a bad system there.

    And you were replying to a strawman argument anyway; this system is not designed to be fast-gearing; it can actually give much less loot because it gives no loot at all for 3 weeks after a patch and it can be tuned anyway.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

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