Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ...
7
8
9
  1. #161
    Epic!
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Unda da bridge, mon
    Posts
    1,605
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It sounds good to attack an argument with fireworks like that, but that response is objectively not an argument.

    You have to prove why such a fair and objectively cumulatively-rewarding system is "nonsense".
    Because it's counter to the MMO genre.
    That's part of the game, killing the boss and hoping to get the loot.
    It's the random chance, the feeling of reward, that's a core part of MMOs.
    Good or bad, that's how the vast majority of the genre has worked with "endgame" loot.

    Plus, your OP doesn't exactly prove there's a problem and doesn't actually address much; it sounds like "kill a boss X times and pick loot", but only once?
    But, let's say your method goes into play, and is added as supplementary to current loot (random drops).
    By the 3rd week, let's say your guild cleared heroic fully each time.
    Now, everyone in the raid, along with whatever may have dropped in those 3 weeks, now picks one item from any boss of their choice.
    What happens next week? Do they just get to keep picking or does the points system reset?
    I would assume the points reset because otherwise you get a free, specific item each week from that point on, in addition to random drops and trades, which seems like a bit too much.
    If it does reset, then every 3 weeks you get a specific item, assuming you killed the boss in question 3 times.

    It just seems a bit, I dunno. Much.
    Maybe with your system they remove the Great Vault in its current incarnation (which I think would be best, but that's a diff topic) and instead replace it with a vendor that allows you to buy one eligible item?
    I'm trying to visualize what you want from your brief 2 sentence OP and it seems like it needs a whole lot of work, thus why it feels silly.

    Now, something I might support, given the statement that there's a loot problem (something I don't see, but I'll take others' word for it) would be something like this:
    Bad Luck Protection per Boss.
    Everyone has a flat 20% chance to get loot to start.
    Kill Boss A and get no loot, now you have 40% chance next loot-eligible kill.
    Get no loot then? Ups to 60%, and so on until the 4th kill with no loot, giving your next kill 100% chance of loot.
    If at any time you do get loot, at either 20% or 100%, it resets to 20% and you start fresh again.
    You don't pick what you want, but you are guaranteed to get something.

    I think something like this could still keep a measure of surprise and excitement in the loot rewarding system, as opposed to window shopping your leggo bow from Sylvanas because you killed her 3 times.
    Sure, you will get items you don't want sometimes, them's the breaks, but you can trade/shard/vendor them and aim for them again.
    There's also chances that your guildmates will get what you want and not need it, increasing loot that flows between the raid.

    Even this feels like it's a lot of gear flowing around, with a guaranteed "something" every 5th kill (if not sooner), but maybe a good compromise?

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    Because it's counter to the MMO genre.
    There are two strawman arguments here. First: this is not the "MMO genre"; that's how you think the mmo genre is because you only think of Blizzard; there are plenty of games in the mmo genre with very deterministic systems and in fact WOW ITSELF was more deterministic in the past about looting with systems like badges etc.

    Two: I don't even suggest pure determinism; this is only a way to reduce the extremist randomness that exists today; randomness will still exist during the kill of a boss in-raid.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  3. #163
    Epic!
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Unda da bridge, mon
    Posts
    1,605
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    There are two strawman arguments here. First: this is not the "MMO genre"; that's how you think the mmo genre is because you only think of Blizzard; there are plenty of games in the mmo genre with very deterministic systems and in fact WOW ITSELF was more deterministic in the past about looting with systems like badges etc.

    Two: I don't even suggest pure determinism; this is only a way to reduce the extremist randomness that exists today; randomness will still exist during the kill of a boss in-raid.
    You suggested almost nothing, actually, in your two sentence attempt at a post, including no detail other than what sums up to "what if you kill a boss 3 times and pick whatever you want".
    I told you why it was silly; in MMOs, there's typically RNG around loot. In many flavors of RPGs, actually. You kill a boss, try for targeted item, if not, you can aim for alternative items. It's how gearing and the power curve works. Not very many games say "if you kill this boss, you get whatever you want"; there's a little more to it, whether it's crafting, collecting pieces/parts for a weapon, something more than the kill itself.
    I didn't say there NEVER should be deterministic methods; I suggested badges as a better alternative than "numbers in the adventure guide", but clipping one sentence is easier to tear down than comprehending a full statement.

    "Numbers in the adventure guide" is a silly idea and convoluted; let's check the adventure guide to see how many kills I have to figure out what piece I get for free? Weird concept that doesn't need to exist and isn't intuitive, just clogging up the adventure guide with additional stats, especially when we already have a badge system that was in-game and proven to work for multiple expansions with an easy to understand vendor system.
    I also suggested BLP on each boss, increasing odds of gear dropping for each boss when you go on a dry spell, something else that already existed in-game and would be a simplistic dial to turn in the background with no need for UI on it.

    But thanks for reading the rest of the post where I attempt to add detail and flesh out potential options that could work, not only with your half-baked idea, but with others, as a way to increase/target loot.
    You know, actual topics of discussion that would be more interesting than a one sentence clip and shit.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    I suggested badges as a better alternative than "numbers in the adventure guide"
    You are not convincing. Your badges will clutter the inventory of players and there's little reason to clutter the inventory of players; it will be especially spammy if we determine that one item per week should be the limit; as a sidenote: since I tell you one item per week should be the limit: I explicitly prove to you I'm not for extreme determinism so your system may be even more deterministic than mine (if badges can buy multiple items from multiple bosses per week).

    My system is extremely simple; click the vault and an 'Adventure Guide'-like page will come up and your boss of choice will have its points next to it; the end.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  5. #165
    Epic!
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Unda da bridge, mon
    Posts
    1,605
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You are not convincing. Your badges will clutter the inventory of players and there's little reason to clutter the inventory of players; it will be especially spammy if we determine that one item per week should be the limit; as a sidenote: since I tell you one item per week should be the limit: I explicitly prove to you I'm not for extreme determinism so your system may be even more deterministic than mine (if badges can buy multiple items from multiple bosses per week).

    My system is extremely simple; click the vault and an 'Adventure Guide'-like page will come up and your boss of choice will have its points next to it; the end.
    Badges have never cluttered inventory.
    Also never claimed you were for extreme determinism, you assumed this.
    It's clear you have no clue what you're talking about, so this convo is done.
    Take care.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    Badges have never cluttered inventory.
    That's a mantra with no justification. In this system they would be a gigantic mess; it should collect 1 badge per week per boss and it only has to give 1 item per week; obviously it's much better to not use the regular inventories for that and have a special inventory (or at least not in bags).

    In reality it's interesting that you even object just because it's not badges; that's a superficial way to look at those things since it can be mathematically the same; if you tell me you want to collect 3 badges that can only buy 1 item per week in total then we don't say anything too different.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Each boss you kill in the game will accumulate 1 point for 1 kill; say for example you kill sylvanas mythic twice in 2 weeks: you have 2 points; you can have 2 points on that boss and 4 points on another boss after 4 weeks etc. etc.

    Every week: vault-improved will give you the opportunity to choose one specific boss; if you have 3 kill points on that boss: you get to choose one item; only 1 item from 1 boss of course to not make it ridiculous.
    We had already the perfect version and was called Valor Points / Badge of Justice etc


    They scrapped because they are demented monkeys with Alzheimer

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    We had already the perfect version and was called Valor Points / Badge of Justice etc


    They scrapped because they are demented monkeys with Alzheimer
    +++++++ this.

  9. #169
    Doubling down on it

    I can assure you people don't give a goddam fuck about people getting geared with BoK BoV VP JP or whatever and get a -10 -15 item lvl gear below the raider one


    Nobody cares people care only about getting the CE the title the mount or whatever is the flex


    Like in TBC with the BoJ nobody cared, oh wow you got the patch 2.4.2 xbow from badges on Quel'danas?

    Well nice for you but suck my dick I got the Golden Bow from Sunwell so I don't really care son as you and me are having fun

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    perfect version and was called Valor Points / Badge of Justice etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    this.

    Too spammy on the inventory. This system is very clean and just. You can collect "badges" of every boss in the game (1 per week for each); if you have 3 "badges" on a boss the next week (inside an 'adventure guide' in the vault so no reason to spam your inventories): you pick any of their items; the end.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    Doubling down on it

    I can assure you people don't give a goddam fuck about people getting geared with BoK BoV VP JP or whatever and get a -10 -15 item lvl gear below the raider one


    Nobody cares people care only about getting the CE the title the mount or whatever is the flex


    Like in TBC with the BoJ nobody cared, oh wow you got the patch 2.4.2 xbow from badges on Quel'danas?

    Well nice for you but suck my dick I got the Golden Bow from Sunwell so I don't really care son as you and me are having fun
    @MoanaLisa I got this post infracted because talking about BoJ is minor flaming?

    What?

    Note: Do not discuss moderation in a public thread. Send a PM to someone. Don't tell people they can 'suck your dick' either. PM me if you want to discuss it further. I sent you a message explaining this.[ML]

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Too spammy on the inventory. This system is very clean and just. You can collect "badges" of every boss in the game (1 per week for each); if you have 3 "badges" on a boss the next week (inside an 'adventure guide' in the vault so no reason to spam your inventories): you pick any of their items; the end.
    Who cares.

    They become Emblems in Cataclysm as currency and not item, is the same.

    Nobody is interested in your inventory spam crusade even if people will just drop them in the bank and forget.

    Is the system that worked not the fact that were badges or points or eagle per freedom bus light beer unit



    Also your idea seems to ignoring dungeons for some reasons
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-01-20 at 05:36 PM.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    is the same
    And because it's the same: stop acting like I'm your enemy. It's also my fault that I didn't tell you that upfront.

    If mathematically another system does the same thing (require 3 kills in 3 weeks etc.) then I don't mind.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    And because it's the same: stop acting like I'm your enemy. It's also my fault that I didn't tell you that upfront.

    If mathematically another system does the same thing (require 3 kills in 3 weeks etc.) then I don't mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    And because it's the same: stop acting like I'm your enemy. It's also my fault that I didn't tell you that upfront.

    If mathematically another system does the same thing (require 3 kills in 3 weeks etc.) then I don't mind.
    Not an enemy but that "backpack spam" isnt really true i remember wrath and tbc and i redo tbcc and isnt an issue at all.



    Now back to your idea why no dungeons?





    ye i know is hard to read but it is the only pic i found https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...20100205183917



    So the first 2 were the last pair of emblems that after got deprecated and converted into currency but the scheme was like this



    Emblem of Triumph
    come from:

    All level 80 Heroic mode dungeon bosses
    All bosses in 10/25-player raids before Icecrown Citadel, and all bosses except Toravon the Ice Watcher Vault of Archavon
    2x as a reward for completing a random heroic dungeon after the first one for the day
    5x for completing the weekly raid quest


    Emblem of Frost
    come from:

    2x for completing the first random level 80 heroic dungeon using the Dungeon Finder each day
    5x for completing the weekly raid quest
    2x from Toravon the Ice Watcher in Vault of Archavon
    2x per boss in Icecrown Citadel




    Max 93 FROST per WEEK and price were like 695 and 1100 so in 2 months you could get 1 piece or 2 OF TIER SET and factor in that THOSE were the 251 itl lvl compared to the 264 and 277

    Meanwhile the REST of NON TIER SET GEAR were like 60 Emblem price.


    So really 1 piece per week no rng just what you wanted.




    So neglecting the DUNGEONS the WEEKLY the DAILY etc etc is a big mistake imho
    Last edited by TBCCLOL; 2022-01-20 at 08:42 PM.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by TBCCLOL View Post
    a big mistake imho
    Man I was playing in WotLK at the highest level I've ever played in this game; I know how it was, hence I also know that system did not drop all items the bosses had on their loot table.

    The biggest mistake of that system though: most of those items come from extremely easy bosses; my system is more fair even against low skill; a badge only refers to one boss table.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  15. #175
    Why can't they...

    Have all the loot drop for everyone on first run...
    BUT!
    Design the dungeon/raid in a manner that makes it so exciting you just want to do it cause it's fun even though you have all the loot the instance itself (regardless of rewards) is highly entertaining?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •