Should WoW adopt a tougher stance on Toxicity in-game?

[Relapses]

I don't think more automated systems would help here though, going to have to agree with Stormbringer; hire actual people and train them to enforce the kind of environment you want for your game.

Because hiring people whose job is to actively scrutinize the minutiae of human behavior in groups has had such profoundly positive results in the past, right?

[AcidicSyn]

Because hiring people whose job is to actively scrutinize the minutiae of human behavior in groups has had such profoundly positive results in the past, right?

Worked fine in UO, there was even a jail GMs would port dickwhistles to and leave them there for a bit.

Don't confuse doing "something" with over-policing.

[Echo of Soul]

In this scenario if the victim simply wanted it to stop the attacker would vanish... so yes?

What a weird comparison putting people on ignore irl isn't the same as a game...

Okay then, if you have an ugly painting and you hang a blanket over it, does the painting stop being ugly?

Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, dealing with it does.

[Relapses]

Worked fine in UO, there was even a jail GMs would port dickwhistles to and leave them there for a bit.

Don't confuse doing "something" with over-policing.

UO never experienced even a fraction of the success of WoW. The workforce necessary to handle WoW's playerbase would be insane by comparison. Why bother hiring an entire division of people to police language in the game when Blizzard could be using the same expenditures on developers to, y'know, just make the game better in general?

[Dysthmic]

The only real way is complete freedom.

In game reporting/right click reporting is used as a form of revenge/griefing 100x more than it is for an actual victim of something. Its usually out of anger and wanting to punish the other person, not actually desiring a better game.

You can play the game with no mic or mute people if you can't handle bad words/name calling/banter etc etc. Mature language filter and ignoring exist in most of todays games.

Controlling social aspects of a game guts them, and leaves the games feeling soulless with muted social interactions between people. Ultimately making the game less fun. If you believe that "just taking out the possibility of bad interactions won't affect anything else" you are delusional and most likely possessed mentally by politics.

People have to realize that you aren't special, everyone gets bullied or shit talked for the lowest common denominator detected by the other individual. You aren't a special victim. Instead of recoiling, making it gratifying to the other person, try bantering back. It will relieve yourself and free you from having to worry in general. Most people have this figured out. If you really can't take it, then don't mic and chat on online games. You really shouldn't. No system will ever fully protect you, so if you are that worried about it, dont participate. You should also admit your own bias. Are you offended about someone being toxic, or is it because they are being toxic about something YOU are insecure of? Have you never said anything toxic?

[AcidicSyn]

UO never experienced even a fraction of the success of WoW. The workforce necessary to handle WoW's playerbase would be insane by comparison. Why bother hiring an entire division of people to police language in the game when Blizzard could be using the same expenditures on developers to, y'know, just make the game better in general?

you're right they should do absolutely nothing.

[Triceron]

Worked fine in UO, there was even a jail GMs would port dickwhistles to and leave them there for a bit.

Don't confuse doing "something" with over-policing.

Yeah, but that never really worked for the long run. UO still had a reputation for being community-driven trollfests. It wasn't a nice community, it was practically a 'wild west' where the enforcement didn't really do much to stem the exploits.

UO was very well known for promoting freedom of gameplay, including roleplaying as villainous assholes. And that leads to having a toxic community, before the term 'toxic community' even became popularized. It was both a part of the charm and part of the problem with the game; a blessing and a curse for being a product of the 90's/early 2000's.

[AcidicSyn]

Yeah, but that never really worked for the long run. UO still had a reputation for being community-driven trollfests. It wasn't a nice community, it was practically a 'wild west' where the enforcement didn't really do much to stem the exploits.

UO was very well known for promoting freedom of gameplay, and that leads to having a toxic community, before the term 'toxic community' even became popularized. It was both a part of the charm and part of the problem with the game; a blessing and a curse for being a product of the 90's/early 2000's.

I honestly just wanted to use a non-FF14 example of "literally anything not automation driven" existing in another game.

[Triceron]

I honestly just wanted to use a non-FF14 example of "literally anything not automation driven" existing in another game.

Then it was a bad example since we're talking about systems that absolutely didn't work for what they were intended to be there for.

The only things that are comparable are bans for exploits, which still happens in WoW. Other than that, anyone can be an asshole without being banned, same as it is in WoW. The enforcement of various actions remains inconsistent in both games, and are based on the 'whims of the GM' most of the time.

That you think it worked fine in UO pretty much would mean you think WOW's current system of banning exploits and GM's occasionally enforcing things on a case-by-case basis is fine too. In both cases, it rarely happens often enough to actually make any meaningful change to the community overall.

[LTN]

Okay then, if you have an ugly painting and you hang a blanket over it, does the painting stop being ugly?

Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, dealing with it does.

It actually does make it go away in a game though...

[TheRevenantHero]

Or people can just ignore people who ignore them and everyone gets what they want.

That's not how harassment is handled. I really hope you don't work for HR at any company. Because just telling people "just ignore them" when it comes to harassment is asinine.

[Weezull]

I'm pretty sure they already do punish players who repeatedly harass even after the two players have long crossed paths, which is what really needs to be dealt with but is fairly uncommon.

Any other sort of policing system like this never works well. In WoW you can already just leave a group with no penalty if somebody is griefing, so the only actual toxicity is just words. Just accept that there are going to be assholes if you queue with random players, and that the anonymity brings that. Assholes, who, by the way, cannot effect you in any gameplay sense and whom you can just /ignore. The solution is to find a group of people you actually like.

You will literally never see the person again after the dungeon/boss/pvp match, so /ignore and move on.

[Swnem]

You aren't arguing in good faith here, but thats for the course. No one is actually saying saying calling children slurs is fine. But WoW already has multiple ways to deal with that. Most/all the scenarios you keep bringing up are the ultra extreme and I would say no common at all. You can already report people and ignore them for saying slurs. If enough people report they will be silenced and eventually banned\suspended. Playing since early 05, and the amount of times I have seen someone say the n word is very low. Some of the other examples you are mentioning are straight illegal in most? countries, and should be met with the law. Its definitely a fallacy for your reply to "I don't trust one persons example of basic toxicity" to then be "Oh so you're fine with sexual harassment, online stalking, and saying racial slurs to children?"

Mainly because those things are already against the ToS and result in bans, and no one here that I have seen is advocating for that threshold to lessen. In my opinion, routinely arguing in bad faith is toxic, while others in this thread have literally said would consider mentioning player performance at all is toxic, and that you should instead leave the group if you are upset that someone is playing badly instead of commenting on it, at all. "What is toxicity" isn't something that can really be answered easily. But like, 12 year olds can also use the profanity filter and not even be aware of what words were used.

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Besides stifling so much freedom, my other problem with this point is how truly fake it is. We can all applaud FF for its rules, but most/many of those player sonly listen because they have to, as you basically said. I don't think at all its a culture issue. FF fans on this very forum are often nasty, and places like Reddit and Twitter are pretty awful too. You can see just as much "toxicity" on those subs.

Yes, and why is that? I see you conveniently let out my example that answers that from the quote.

Freedom without order is anarchy.

[LTN]

That's not how harassment is handled. I really hope you don't work for HR at any company. Because just telling people "just ignore them" when it comes to harassment is asinine.

It is a video game.. it isn't a profession unless you are one of about a hundred people. It isnt a career with your livelihood at stake.

It is a game... just use ignore.

[TheRevenantHero]

It is a video game.. it isn't a profession unless you are one of about a hundred people. It isnt a career with your livelihood at stake.

It is a game... just use ignore.

Again, saying "just ignore them" solves absolutely nothing. Imagine if you were being harassed by someone and the cops said "Just ignore them"

[Gehco]

Nope.. "toxicity" isn't a thing and is easily solved by a working ignore button, or if it's straight up illegal stuff, get the authorities involved.

However botting, advertising etc. hell yes. This sort of stuff ruins the game for everyone and just ignoring them won't help.

Toxicity IS a thing and has been since forever, just more prominent now because people don't know how to think. If you want to be toxic, go use your freedom of speech outside. This, and everything private, has no freedom of speed support.

[Echo of Soul]

Again, saying "just ignore them" solves absolutely nothing. Imagine if you were being harassed by someone and the cops said "Just ignore them"

Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away, fixing the problem makes it go away and the only ones who can fix the problem are Blizzard. If someone can't control their speech and their emotions around their peers they should be banned for a period of time, if they don't improve they should be permanently banned. You don't get to behave like that and suffer no consequences in a healthy environment.

[Amarys]

Toxicity IS a thing and has been since forever, just more prominent now because people don't know how to think. If you want to be toxic, go use your freedom of speech outside. This, and everything private, has no freedom of speed support.

Did I say anything about freedom of speech? I think companies that police their game outside the boundaries of gameplay related issues and the law just make their games bad.. it's not their obligation to do it and they shouldn't. The ignore button should solve all issues related to verbal abuse. I don't understand why you think this wouldn't be enough because if a "toxic" player can no longer communicate with you, how does that not solve the problem?

The main reason why I'm personally against this sort of stuff is it ruins PvP and other competitive elements. If say Blizzard started banning "toxic" players.. how long till you think it would take before they started banning gankers or those who say target you and outbid all your auctions, kick you from the group to replace you with a friend or because you're bad etc.

[TheRevenantHero]

Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away, fixing the problem makes it go away and the only ones who can fix the problem are Blizzard. If someone can't control their speech and their emotions around their peers they should be banned for a period of time, if they don't improve they should be permanently banned. You don't get to behave like that and suffer no consequences in a healthy environment.

I completely agree. People harassing others really need to be shown there will be consequences to their actions. Putting someone on ignore with no other punishment does nothing but embolden them to be shitty to other people. Which in turn creates MORE issues because now more people are seeing that they can be as toxic as they want and never get punished for it.

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Did I say anything about freedom of speech? I think companies that police their game outside the boundaries of gameplay related issues and the law just make their games bad.. it's not their obligation to do it and they shouldn't. The ignore button should solve all issues related to verbal abuse. I don't understand why you think this wouldn't be enough because if a "toxic" player can no longer communicate with you, how does that not solve the problem?

The main reason why I'm personally against this sort of stuff is it ruins PvP and other competitive elements. If say Blizzard started banning "toxic" players.. how long till you think it would take before they started banning gankers or those who say target you and outbid all your auctions, kick you from the group to replace you with a friend or because you're bad etc.

So you're saying that companies that punish people for harassing other players in game are actually bad companies? How utterly asinine. As I just mentioned, just telling someone to put the harasser on ignore does nothing but show them and other toxic people that their actions will have absolutely no negative consequences for them. The narrative you are pushing in your post is exactly why WoW's community has gotten so toxic. Because instead of punishing problem players, Blizzard tends to let them run rampant. And if banning players who harass others somehow damages pvp, too bad. People can learn to either be civil or start getting hit with punishments for making someone else's playtime a negative experience.

[Miffinat0r]

I completely agree. People harassing others really need to be shown there will be consequences to their actions. Putting someone on ignore with no other punishment does nothing but embolden them to be shitty to other people. Which in turn creates MORE issues because now more people are seeing that they can be as toxic as they want and never get punished for it.

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So you're saying that companies that punish people for harassing other players in game are actually bad companies? How utterly asinine. As I just mentioned, just telling someone to put the harasser on ignore does nothing but show them and other toxic people that their actions will have absolutely no negative consequences for them. The narrative you are pushing in your post is exactly why WoW's community has gotten so toxic. Because instead of punishing problem players, Blizzard tends to let them run rampant. And if banning players who harass others somehow damages pvp, too bad. People can learn to either be civil or start getting hit with punishments for making someone else's playtime a negative experience.

It's a base fear that people have that if they express any opinion that's not "mainstream" enough, which to any conservative means any of their opinions, they'll be banned. But I've yet to see that be the case, or I've yet ITT to see someone make that case.

The concern is if you're in a pug, and someone starts berating you without offering any type of constructive feedback. Ya that person should be banned, no I'm not kidding, start making an example out of them, and soon the game with righted itself.