Should WoW adopt a tougher stance on Toxicity in-game?

[NineSpine]

Other games haven't solved these problems because those other games aren't WoW. They're other games.

WoW is ultimately not going to be solved by the same 'solutions' that other games have implemented.

It's not like WoW will suddenly be as helpful as the FF14 community just because toxic players start getting banned. It's a systematic issue, it's a difference of community issue. And ultimately there are different types of toxicity being faced by different people. I don't think any game has really ever 'solved' the issue, since toxicity is always gonna be a thing no matter what online game we're talking about. It's just gonna be less apparent in certain games for whatever reasons are unique to that game.

"It's different" isn't an argument. Every game is different, but reasonable application of extremely similar solutions has worked across various types of games, including ones very similar to WoW, in order to significantly reduce toxicity.

[Darkeon]

Should WoW adopt a tougher stance on Toxicity in-game? Yes.
Should it be done via automated systems, like Blizzard seems to have a tendency to do? No.

[Triceron]

"It's different" isn't an argument. Every game is different, but reasonable application of extremely similar solutions has worked across various types of games, including ones very similar to WoW, in order to significantly reduce toxicity.

It's still not addressing why toxicity exists. As I said, you'd get rid of the symptoms, but not address the problem. Yes, you'd get results from banwaves, but I'm pretty sure you don't give a rats ass about the toxicity banwave back in '07 today, do you?

The issue needs to be corrected at a systematic level. A root of the problem is having so many systems built around competitiveness. End game dungeons based on speed timers. Raids that punish everyone for one person's mistake. Mythic Raids that are the touted as the most fulfilling content, yet has no room for people who do not have the patience or skill to accomplish who still will do it regardless; leading to frustration for everyone involved.

You don't really see these systems in those other games you mention. They're usually much more relaxed environments, with end-game content that isn't as stressful or competitive. That's a major key difference in why those games can maintain a much lower tolerance for toxicity, because the games are overall less stressful when it comes to progression.

And sad to say, but Blizzard has little reason to address the matter, because it's both a waste of resources to address, and the fact that those same toxic players are paying customers. There's no incentive for them to fix a problem which only sinks their MAUs.


I don't want to come across as defending toxicity because I absolutely am not. The reality is if toxicity was so easy to fix because other games did it, then surely it'd already be fixed. The reason why it's not fix is because it's not easy. The reason it's not fixed is because WoW is not 'other games'. WoW is built as it is to purposefully attract competitive players, and is maintained a reputation as a competitive MMO. That's its strength. And it's also its weakness.

[NineSpine]

It's still not addressing why toxicity exists. As I said, you'd get rid of the symptoms, but not address the problem. Yes, you'd get results from banwaves, but I'm pretty sure you don't give a rats ass about the toxicity banwave back in '07 today, do you?

The issue needs to be corrected at a systematic level. A root of the problem is having so many systems built around competitiveness. End game dungeons based on speed timers. Raids that punish everyone for one person's mistake. Mythic Raids that are the touted as the most fulfilling content, yet has no room for people who do not have the patience or skill to accomplish who still will do it regardless; leading to frustration for everyone involved.

You don't really see these systems in those other games you mention. They're usually much more relaxed environments, with end-game content that isn't as stressful or competitive. That's a major key difference in why those games can maintain a much lower tolerance for toxicity, because the games are overall less stressful when it comes to progression.

And sad to say, but Blizzard has little reason to address the matter, because it's both a waste of resources to address, and the fact that those same toxic players are paying customers. There's no incentive for them to fix a problem which only sinks their MAUs.


I don't want to come across as defending toxicity because I absolutely am not. The reality is if toxicity was so easy to fix because other games did it, then surely it'd already be fixed. The reason why it's not fix is because it's not easy.

You misunderstand me. I never said that banning people is the only thing to do. In fact, I haven't proposed actual solutions. I've just said such solutions exist. I agree that the root is the game design itself.

[Triceron]

You misunderstand me. I never said that banning people is the only thing to do. In fact, I haven't proposed actual solutions. I've just said such solutions exist. I agree that the root is the game design itself.

Well then we're still at the point of not having any practical solutions that apply to WoW. We're just pointing at other games that have solutions for their unique problems, which aren't directly applicable back to WoW because they don't account for the fact that these problems are understandably rooted in the game design.

And it's sort of that triangle of Competitive Progression, Popularity and No Toxicity where you can pick any combination of the two but you can't have all three.

[Cæli]

yes, meaning they shall be tougher towards themselves; blizzard is the one being toxic

[Sluvs]

Was gonna go into a big rant, but just gonna say that those games are systematically different from WoW.

For whatever reason, Blizzard has decided to make the game's progression tied directly to the content and making it a grind. A lot of the reasons for toxicity to exist stem from the systems itself. Banning and enforcement is gonna be a bandaid on a deeper problem with the way the game has been designed, and the collective expectations around how content needs to be done 'effectively'.

Just banning the toxic outliers doesn't change the nature of the content breeding such bad behaviour. And I get it that some people will be assholes and should be dealt with, but again, that kind of thing still exists for 'other games that don't have this problem' regardless. Generally from what I've experienced, people are just more passive aggressive about it to avoid any reports or bans.

I personally think that a lot of the root issues with toxicity stems from the way Blizzard designs content and systems. And fundamentally, that's not gonna change any time soon, because it's all a part of how WoW is what it is.

Kinda like League of Legends addressing toxicity. No matter how many anti-toxicism systems they add and try to enforce, toxicity is still rampant in the game. It's a systematic issue.

I fundamentallly agree with you in those two things:

The games are different.
The systems that blizzard develops do not help.

That being said, they are similar. And they solved the problem. Of course there are fundamental things that make the situation in WoW different. That being said, I do not think that the problem is just the system that WoW has in place, because the nature of the game is inherently cooperative (differently from LoL) and while they are different from the games (FFXIV and GW2) they are not different enough to have such a HUGE difference in community toxicity. I would argue is that the difference is the proper enforcement of the rules. A lot of the systems are actually similar (down to a determination stacks and more).

And even if you, 100% believe that they cannot be compared, which is absurd IMHO, you cannot possibly believe that the current state of the community is the best possible outcome. There must be a way to make it better. TBH I would love to hear some of your suggestions for its betterment, I think I will end up agreeing with a lot of them.

- - - Updated - - -

Counterproductive indeed, but toxic people will of course push back against anything or anyone that might curb their crappy behaviour. Cue some "libertarian" phraseology on top, and you have a recipe for cringe.

Blizzard's automated systems being quite shoddy (to say the least) doesn't help either, and neither does the fact that they've fired a lot of CMs/GMs over the last few years.

Yep, this is my main issue with Blizzard. They have been fostering this situation for a while now, automated systems simply cannot substitute CMs/GMs. They are supposed to be tools that help them, not tools that replace them. This is absurd.

[LauraHydra1]

What even IS toxic?

Is it not paying attention to chat during a dungeon run so you miss people telling you not to stand in the fire, or that the healer needs a mana break?

Is it the idiot mage constantly pulling mob groups? Or is it the healer who lets him die on purpose when he won't listen to requests to stop?

Is it the player who's too lazy to even look at the encounter journal and getting the group killed because he doesn't know the mechanics of the fight?

Is it the player who's half-afk during a dungeon or raid expecting to get carried? Or is it the LFG group who kicks the poor little single mom who had to leave every two minutes because her kid kept screaming?

Is it the person who's consistently late to guild runs, shows up without potions or food, and annoys everyone on Discord? Or is it the raid leader who kicks him from the group?

[Kirbydude65]

The issue needs to be corrected at a systematic level. A root of the problem is having so many systems built around competitiveness. End game dungeons based on speed timers. Raids that punish everyone for one person's mistake. Mythic Raids that are the touted as the most fulfilling content, yet has no room for people who do not have the patience or skill to accomplish who still will do it regardless; leading to frustration for everyone involved.

So are we just to just remove the strengths of Warcraft because of this? I agree there are issues that need to be solved, but to remove the content that a lot of players enjoy like Mythic +, Mythic Raiding, and competitive PVP shouldn't be the answer.


I play Warcraft because its provide these features, and I deeply enjoy them. Challenging Raiding has been something I've been doing since TBC. Mythic + while initially not something I had any interest in, quickly became one of my favorite activities. If these were removed, I'd likely stop playing.

There can be solutions to these problems without removing what a lot of players find fun from them.

[Echo of Soul]

Counterproductive indeed, but toxic people will of course push back against anything or anyone that might curb their crappy behaviour. Cue some "libertarian" phraseology on top, and you have a recipe for cringe.

Blizzard's automated systems being quite shoddy (to say the least) doesn't help either, and neither does the fact that they've fired a lot of CMs/GMs over the last few years.

Yeah like not being able to be toxic pieces of shit to everyone who dares make a single mistake somehow infringes on their freedom of speech.

Some people shouldn't be allowed to speak..

[NineSpine]

Well then we're still at the point of not having any practical solutions that apply to WoW. We're just pointing at other games that have solutions for their unique problems, which aren't directly applicable back to WoW because they don't account for the fact that these problems are understandably rooted in the game design.

And it's sort of that triangle of Competitive Progression, Popularity and No Toxicity where you can pick any combination of the two but you can't have all three.

1. Aggressively ban people for toxicity
2. Provide practice queues for content for people that want to learn things
3. Create progression paths outside of difficult content
4. Fix M+ so that it isn't a system where other people can screw up your keys

That's pretty much my four step plan.

- - - Updated - - -

What even IS toxic?

Is it not paying attention to chat during a dungeon run so you miss people telling you not to stand in the fire, or that the healer needs a mana break?

Is it the idiot mage constantly pulling mob groups? Or is it the healer who lets him die on purpose when he won't listen to requests to stop?

Is it the player who's too lazy to even look at the encounter journal and getting the group killed because he doesn't know the mechanics of the fight?

Is it the player who's half-afk during a dungeon or raid expecting to get carried? Or is it the LFG group who kicks the poor little single mom who had to leave every two minutes because her kid kept screaming?

Is it the person who's consistently late to guild runs, shows up without potions or food, and annoys everyone on Discord? Or is it the raid leader who kicks him from the group?

Whatever drove you to post that. That's what is toxic. You are the problem.

[trandwidther]

Question is simple--would you like to see a stronger toxicity control team installed within WoW.

Personally after watching DoaG yesterday it's pretty clear Blizzard has a track record of not taking toxicity seriously (I mean...they did hire Alex). But while watching the video it was clear that Blizzard with OW had no intention of trying to make sure players who were harassing others over performance ever saw any type of accountability for their words/speech. Which ultimatley drove OW into the ground it's in now, because without those actual toxicity control measures sponsors were pulling out which started the downward spiral for OW.

Blizzard does not have a toxicity problem. Games like FF14 have a censorship problem.

What you are asking for is a creepy Chinese social credits system tantamount to thought control. As annoying as wow assholes can be, I'd rather we had freedom of speech.

[NineSpine]

Blizzard does not have a toxicity problem. Games like FF14 have a censorship problem.

What you are asking for is a creepy Chinese social credits system tantamount to thought control. As annoying as wow assholes can be, I'd rather we had freedom of speech.

If you go to a public place and start calling a 12 year old a retard and screaming, and they ask you to leave, do you think you are being censored?

[Triceron]

And even if you, 100% believe that they cannot be compared, which is absurd IMHO, you cannot possibly believe that the current state of the community is the best possible outcome. There must be a way to make it better. TBH I would love to hear some of your suggestions for its betterment, I think I will end up agreeing with a lot of them.

So are we just to just remove the strengths of Warcraft because of this? I agree there are issues that need to be solved, but to remove the content that a lot of players enjoy like Mythic +, Mythic Raiding, and competitive PVP shouldn't be the answer.
---
There can be solutions to these problems without removing what a lot of players find fun from them.

As I said above; it's that triangle of Competitive Progression, Popularity and No Toxicity where you can pick any combination of the two but you can't have all three.


So there are 3 potential solutions I see, each catering to different outcomes. And discussion on which being the most practical is all going to dependent on what type of game people want WoW to cater towards. There's no simple or easy solution.

Right now, they're keeping the game Competitive and Popular. No real limits to toxicity other than what already exists with their automated system. It's a 'Soft ban' system, more honor system than anything. And frankly it's working in Blizzard's favor, maintaining MAUs at the cost of a 'toxic community'.

We can change WoW's competitive systems and have it Popular and Not Toxic. Well, this is addressed by Kirby's point; that the fun of the game is in its competitiveness, so changing the systems is counter-intuitive to the game itself. A big part of WoW's charm is its ability to be competitive, and being pretty well balanced for its systems.

We keep it Competitive and without Toxicity; the most ideal solution for players. That will also mean significant blowback to 'catering to casuals' and alienating the elitists which this game is pretty much being designed for. I doubt Blizzard will go this route, since they have taken a very 'business first' design approach of maintaining MAUs from the elitists, since the casuals seemingly come and go as they please regardless of the content.

Whatever the outcome, I don't see any being 'easy' just because other games have solved them. FF14 and GW2 are fairly 'non competitive' when it comes to progression; a very different game from WoW. Other games like League of Legends (I admit, there aren't very many popular competitive MMO's out there to compare WoW to; it practically is its own example) are popular and competitive, and also very toxic. And then there's Competitive games that have systems that are designed to avoid Toxicity, like Heroes of the Storm, which end up becoming absolutely obscure because the high-edge risk-reward systems are what make these games popular in the first place. It all goes hand in hand.

[Garymorilix]

As I said above; it's that triangle of Competitive Progression, Popularity and No Toxicity where you can pick any combination of the two but you can't have all three.


So there are 3 potential solutions I see, each catering to different outcomes. And discussion on which being the most practical is all going to dependent on what type of game people want WoW to cater towards. There's no simple or easy solution.

Right now, they're keeping the game Competitive and Popular. No real limits to toxicity other than what already exists with their automated system. It's a 'Soft ban' system, more honor system than anything. And frankly it's working in Blizzard's favor, maintaining MAUs at the cost of a 'toxic community'.

We can change WoW's competitive systems and have it Popular and Not Toxic. Well, this is addressed by Kirby's point; that the fun of the game is in its competitiveness, so changing the systems is counter-intuitive to the game itself. A big part of WoW's charm is its ability to be competitive, and being pretty well balanced for its systems.

We keep it Competitive and without Toxicity; the most ideal solution for players. That will also mean significant blowback to 'catering to casuals' and alienating the elitists which this game is pretty much being designed for. I doubt Blizzard will go this route, since they have taken a very 'business first' design approach of maintaining MAUs from the elitists, since the casuals seemingly come and go as they please regardless of the content.

Whatever the outcome, I don't see any being 'easy' just because other games have solved them. FF14 and GW2 are fairly 'non competitive' when it comes to progression; a very different game from WoW. Other games like League of Legends (I admit, there aren't very many popular competitive MMO's out there to compare WoW to; it practically is its own example) are popular and competitive, and also very toxic. And then there's Competitive games that have systems that are designed to avoid Toxicity, like Heroes of the Storm, which end up becoming absolutely obscure because the high-edge risk-reward systems are what make these games popular in the first place. It all goes hand in hand.

When something is inherently competitive and the activity itself demands that players who participate take it seriously to the point where they actually come prepared (consums, knows tacts etc) then why do we blame the system and not just tell people that this is not for them?

It's not like WoW is lacking of casual difficulties.
We have 4 dungeon difficulties outside of M+ and every one of them is easy enough for many types of casuals.
We have LFR and Normal raids which are basically cake-walk.

Honestly, you can't expect a major league football team to work with someone who never played the sport and be competitive at the same time.
When you do content created for competitive people, and you are not a competitive person, YOU are in the wrong place, it's not the system that sucks, case and point.

Is it 'toxic' to tell people who don't belong to not ruin it for those who actually care?
If so, then who cares, they didn't belong in the first place.

[NineSpine]

When something is inherently competitive and the activity itself demands that players who participate take it seriously to the point where they actually come prepared (consums, knows tacts etc) then why do we blame the system and not just tell people that this is not for them?

It's not like WoW is lacking of casual difficulties.
We have 4 dungeon difficulties outside of M+ and every one of them is easy enough for many types of casuals.
We have LFR and Normal raids which are basically cake-walk.

Honestly, you can't expect a major league football team to work with someone who never played the sport and be competitive at the same time.
When you do content created for competitive people, and you are not a competitive person, YOU are in the wrong place, it's not the system that sucks, case and point.

Is it 'toxic' to tell people who don't belong to not ruin it for those who actually care?
If so, then who cares, they didn't belong in the first place.

You aren't a professional athlete. Nobody cares about you. Nobody is impressed by you. You are the guy playing pickup games at the gym and making everyone miserable by taking it too seriously and acting like you are Michael Jordan. You are the problem.

If I could ever sum up toxicity well, it is when you take a video game with talking cow ladies that is rated for 12 year olds to play, and think that being moderately good at it puts you in the same class as the NFL.

[Triceron]

Is it 'toxic' to tell people who don't belong to not ruin it for those who actually care?
If so, then who cares, they didn't belong in the first place.

Which is Final Fantasy 14's community handling of things.

FF14 community isn't inwardly toxic, but it has somewhat of an alternate 'toxicity' issue where players can be so defensive of the game they will use 'this game isn't for you' as a general answer for anything related to competitive play. And frankly, that's not the type of game that WoW is built to be. WoW is inherently competitive, and that is both a strength and a weakness for it.

WoW can have an infinite number of casual difficulties, but the progression systems remain competitive nonetheless. All we're doing is shifting the focus away from the top end, and catering to the middle/lower ends. And to be honest, that's a bit of an awkward sell, since a game is usually defined by its top end (that's where you balance from) rather than the bottom. And sure, you can have a competitive game that isn't toxic at the top level right? But the most popular ones tend to breed and draw toxicity to them, and that's the difference.

So we either keep the game as is, and cater to the elite. Or we change the game completely, and cater to the casuals. I find it very difficult to accept any reality where we have all the cake and eat it, because frankly there isn't really a game out there that exists with all three checked off the list. Competition and Popularity inherrently draws toxic behaviour.

[NineSpine]

Which is Final Fantasy 14's community handling of things.

FF14 community isn't inwardly toxic, but it has somewhat of an alternate 'toxicity' issue where players can be so defensive of the game they will use 'this game isn't for you' as a general answer for anything related to competitive play. And frankly, that's not the type of game that WoW is built to be. WoW is inherently competitive, and that is both a strength and a weakness for it.

WoW can have an infinite number of casual difficulties, but the progression systems remain competitive nonetheless. All we're doing is shifting the focus away from the top end, and catering to the middle/lower ends. And to be honest, that's a bit of an awkward sell, since a game is usually defined by its top end (that's where you balance from) rather than the bottom. And sure, you can have a competitive game that isn't toxic at the top level right? But the most popular ones tend to breed and draw toxicity to them, and that's the difference.

So we either keep the game as is, and cater to the elite. Or we change the game completely, and cater to the casuals. I find it very difficult to accept any reality where we have all the cake and eat it, because frankly there isn't really a game out there that exists like that. Competition and Popularity inherrently draws toxic behaviour.

WoW is not a competitive game for the vast majority of players. However, it is a game that convinces a significant number of players to delude themselves into thinking they are being competitive when they aren't. That is what makes the design uniquely bad. If you aren't doing world firsts or rated pvp, it is not a competitive game, period.

[schwank05]

The ignore feature is very limited and i dont know if you know but dungeons are cross-realm so you end up playing with completely new players pretty much everytime. So even if you ignore everyone youll always face new toxic players... it will never end. Something like that cannot be fixed on individual level.

And its not about sensitivity, its about basic behaviour which is rare online... the reason why you say something like that is probably because youre drowned in toxicity and dont know a life without it so you think the only way is the "grow a thicker skin"-attitude.
Even you arent immune to toxicity, you can say anything you want about how it doesnt affect you but it does... you just dont realize it.

Its in human nature to be oblivious to what youre missing... only experiencing something better will help you understand how much better life can be without that one thing youre so used to. And we are slaves to our habits which makes it very hard for anyone to change... ask any smoker or alcoholic. :P

I think kids these days have a word for situations where people are reluctant to change: Copium.

Well, I guess that is why I exclusively play classic TBC. Retail is hot garbage, try being a Douche Nozzle on TBCC and you'll end up server blacklisted so looks like the issue is the systems in place not and it is taken care of on Classic pretty quickly.

[Begrudge]

No, move on with the woke bs, literally the one last thing that will ever actually kill wow