Should WoW adopt a tougher stance on Toxicity in-game?

[Daish]

bad performance is bad performance
being toxic is being toxic

Imagine calling 95% of playerbase "toxic", holy shit the delusions.

And who sets the standards? You? Blizzard? Maybe we refer to 99% line so anyone who is below top 10 world is bad and automatically toxic?

that's not how "toxicity" works

anything that can be "bad" or is against your own opinions can be classified as toxic you even used the word bad when referring to a player "bad players" your own standard dictates that you be classified toxic now

they have done this for years in overwatch if you play the wrong class or don't focus on the objective = Toxic = reason for a ban
why do you think Overwatch died so fast that ideology is moving into WoW GUESS WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN

if you want to stop bullshit like bad players being called toxic you need to stop using this ideology. stop using the word toxic and toxicity point out how worthless and meaningless those words are get rid of them

[Rendark]

I login to kill shit and I'm really fucking good at it. Nobody is ever toxic to me, because:
a) they have no merit since I play at a superior level. Even if I do make a mistake, I'm still playing at a higher level so nobody has the right to call out my mistakes while they're the weak link.
b) they run the risk of me leaving.

Maybe if the crybabies spent less time whining about how mean everyone is to them, and instead used that free time to improve their gameplay they'd find out that the game is a lot less toxic.

You know this is the kind of guy that can't even do normal mode raiding.

[kaminaris]

that's not how "toxicity" works

anything that can be "bad" or is against your own opinions can be classified as toxic you even used the word bad when referring to a player "bad players" your own standard dictates that you be classified toxic now

they have done this for years in overwatch if you play the wrong class or don't focus on the objective = Toxic = reason for a ban
why do you think Overwatch died so fast that ideology is moving into WoW GUESS WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN

if you want to stop bullshit like bad players being called toxic you need to stop using this ideology. stop using the word toxic and toxicity point out how worthless and meaningless those words are get rid of them

No idea what you just said but that is incorrect regardless.

If you don't "focus on objective" and just intentionally make the game bad experience for others it has its own term and had that for a very long time:
griefing

if you just dick around doing weird stuff that can also be:
trolling

and if you stretch the "toxic" definition a bit, you could say both are a form of being toxic.

Performing lower than your arbitrary standards isn't toxic simply because there is wide variety of player skill in games. Its just as simple as that.

[Soikona]

If me not being a snowflake and not caring what people think of me ONLINE is selfish - sure.

Then you do what you do because you want to, so you purposely go out of your way to be a dick to people. Either you have anger issues, or enjoy being toxic to people. Which ever it is, you should talk to someone. It’s not good for your mental health to be this bitter.

[PaladinBash]

Yeah because I would just use it to ban people who say/do things I don't like.

[Razorice]

Then you do what you do because you want to, so you purposely go out of your way to be a dick to people. Either you have anger issues, or enjoy being toxic to people. Which ever it is, you should talk to someone. It’s not good for your mental health to be this bitter.

I don't know how you arrived to those conclusions. I don't go around being a aggressive or a dick to people.

I'll let my therapist know, that someone online pointed out I should seek medical help though. For sure.

[Makaloff]

Yes but at the same time Blizzard is quite toxic themselfs (and arrogant) so as much as i wish we would have FF14 levels of toughness towards bad behaviour, i dont see it happening.

[Guanciale]

There is a difference between someone performing at a lower standard than expected due to inexperience (but not lack of basic knowledge).

And then there is the classical scrub who claims to be a "casual" who logs into the game, thinking they are owed a spot in any key/raid because its "easy" and this game is made for them to have "fun". While in fact all they doing is showing up clueless both in terms for the dungeon/raid and how to play their character properly, resulting in them dragging the entire team down.

Then after they get booted from a group; they come here to QQ about the game being elitist and how blizzard needs to intervene on their part hoping to change the design of game to cater to their laziness and unwillingness to improve themselves. Better yet they continue the lunacy and look for any and all external factors to blame other than themselves.

If you are experiencing constant toxicity in the game its because you are doing something fundamentally wrong. I've played this game a very long time (be it in a elitist or causal atmosphere) in both its very rare I met someone who is by default toxic; these people rarely stick around since no one wants them to begin with.

[Flotib]

If you want to stop toxicity in wow you will inevitably restrict some people who are not abusing the system. Just like what they did with the group finder (lvl 50 requires + authenticator)

[cparle87]

AMEN!!!! these casuals have destroyed what wow was, wow wasnt unicorns and rainbows and sweet words, it was brutal and competitive, thats what made it great

So how do you explain the fact that WoW became as big as it did thanks in part to the fact that it was the casual alternative to other MMOs like UO and Runescape? As for competitive it didn't even HAVE a pvp system when it launched. The heydey of SS v TM for instance was done for no reward but to murder people.

[Daish]

No idea what you just said but that is incorrect regardless.

If you don't "focus on objective" and just intentionally make the game bad experience for others it has its own term and had that for a very long time:
griefing

if you just dick around doing weird stuff that can also be:
trolling

and if you stretch the "toxic" definition a bit, you could say both are a form of being toxic.

Performing lower than your arbitrary standards isn't toxic simply because there is wide variety of player skill in games. Its just as simple as that.

anything bad
anything negative
anything disagreeable
anything that is against your own opinion

can be toxic and this makes the word worthless

trolling is also a worthless word you cant see inside another humans mind you cant tell if they are posting their true feelings or posting something they know is nonsense

do you want to define the word toxic/toxicity for us? go ahead and define it without using an example just define the word go for it

[odamienskii]

So how do you explain the fact that WoW became as big as it did thanks in part to the fact that it was the casual alternative to other MMOs like UO and Runescape? As for competitive it didn't even HAVE a pvp system when it launched. The heydey of SS v TM for instance was done for no reward but to murder people.

The point is they were seperate, social night raiders would stay in there own social group and enjoy the game, they couldnt stroll into higher content with the best gear because your gear was what showed your level of play, course you had bad players with gear but not like today where EVERYONE is stacked with end game gear after 2/3 weeks with enough effort.

They have scrapped all the tier systems, lfr, normal, heroic are generally all the same thing because the mega bad social guilds can go into heroic no problem. you can run +10s and upgrade your gear from what 220? to what 246 was it? just by running 10s? what was the point of taughast layer 1,2,3,4,5?

There is nothing to identify who is mega bad like there used to be, i used to run around with double agi sword as a fury warrior, azuls sword of jin, thought i was amazing, it wasnt untill someone took me to a side and said "look i can see yor really trying but take this blue two hand axe and switch to arms, come to the dummy and i will show you.

You cant do that now, learning and progressing was part of the game, im not ashamed of what i was, that was part of learning. that doesnt exist anymore because everyone is spoonfed everything so the mega bads like i was are running around continueing to think they are doing it right without anyone able to help them because its impossible to see......untill you join a +20 dungeon and there is a guy with 4k dps overall, then you know. but by then its too late and you dont want to help them because you hate them for wasting your time.

Without realising it removing elitism actually increases toxicity, because good players do and will help bads, just because someone cares enough to be amazing at the game dont make them a dick, as jealous as you may be, get over the jealousy and you will find they will help you. but by forcing them to play with bads and have there time wasted, there comes the toxicity.

Or i might just be talking about how i feel when a new player rips the same key for the 15th time that day even after clear instructions on what not to do. "i got this bro" "bro chill i got this".....fail....."sorry" thats ok mate shit happens, repeat, thats ok mate shit happens, repeat, thats ok mate shit happens, repeat, thats ok mate shit happens, repeat... you f&*king imbocile!...log out.

[kaminaris]

anything bad
anything negative
anything disagreeable
anything that is against your own opinion

can be toxic and this makes the word worthless

No. It can't.
toxic player is simply someone with bad attitude.

Just because some people don't understand the word or try to twist it doesnt mean it suddenly means everything.

The same way you don't get to define word "green" by painting your grass blue.

[ReleaseDay]

No, they should do the contrary and adopt a more free-speech policy.

/ignore function still exists, last i checked, so there is no need for this rigorous censorship, the second you say something that is even remotely negative towards woke extremism.

[cparle87]

The point is they were seperate, social night raiders would stay in there own social group and enjoy the game, they couldnt stroll into higher content with the best gear because your gear was what showed your level of play, course you had bad players with gear but not like today where EVERYONE is stacked with end game gear after 2/3 weeks with enough effort.

They have scrapped all the tier systems, lfr, normal, heroic are generally all the same thing because the mega bad social guilds can go into heroic no problem. you can run +10s and upgrade your gear from what 220? to what 246 was it? just by running 10s? what was the point of taughast layer 1,2,3,4,5?

There is nothing to identify who is mega bad like there used to be, i used to run around with double agi sword as a fury warrior, azuls sword of jin, thought i was amazing, it wasnt untill someone took me to a side and said "look i can see yor really trying but take this blue two hand axe and switch to arms, come to the dummy and i will show you.

You cant do that now, learning and progressing was part of the game, im not ashamed of what i was, that was part of learning. that doesnt exist anymore because everyone is spoonfed everything so the mega bads like i was are running around continueing to think they are doing it right without anyone able to help them because its impossible to see......untill you join a +20 dungeon and there is a guy with 4k dps overall, then you know. but by then its too late and you dont want to help them because you hate them for wasting your time.

Without realising it removing elitism actually increases toxicity, because good players do and will help bads, just because someone cares enough to be amazing at the game dont make them a dick, as jealous as you may be, get over the jealousy and you will find they will help you. but by forcing them to play with bads and have there time wasted, there comes the toxicity.

Or i might just be talking about how i feel when a new player rips the same key for the 15th time that day even after clear instructions on what not to do. "i got this bro" "bro chill i got this".....fail....."sorry" thats ok mate shit happens, repeat, thats ok mate shit happens, repeat, thats ok mate shit happens, repeat, thats ok mate shit happens, repeat... you f&*king imbocile!...log out.

I'd say your first paragraph is hyperbole. It takes far longer to get lots of endgame gear than two or three weeks.

Tier sets are coming back. 10s are not casual content so I think the ilvl you get is appropriate. The point of the lower Torghast layers was apparent when we all had 170 or less item level. We only even had up to layer 3 the first few weeks.

Your entire third paragraph is a weird anecdote where someone tells you your spec sucks, gives you a weapon, and tells you respec? Ok?

I love your phrasing. "Mega bads." They won't be getting anywhere close to 20s, but nice anecdote.

How are the so called good players "forced" to play with "bads"? All you really have is hyperbole. "Ripping the same key 15 times"? Really? If someone sucks that badly they don't belong in keys. Remove them, and suggest they read the dungeon journal and try zeros until they learn what to do.

[Sucralose]

Are you listening to yourself?

"community" didn't crush shit. Also it's not "we", do not assume you are the in the "better" part of it.

There are always better players than you, which according to your logic should have "sealed" you in low level M+ keys, lfr and urated pvp, where again, according to your logic, you belong.

Well... always is a strong term i've held top ten logs in mop for my class and while that isn't a sound metric I know I have also raided at the world top ten level during that time as well. ( I no longer have the time to play that many characters of course and am far more casual now).

There will always be better players perhaps but the community has handled toxicity perfectly. Toxic people very, very rarely make it out of the lowest brackets of content. There the ignore and chat filter system for wonderfully and you have not made a solid case for why more is needed. The issue has been handled they have been driven into the worst parts of the game and communities stand strong and united when they are centered around end game activities.

[nvaelz]

Question is simple--would you like to see a stronger toxicity control team installed within WoW.

Personally after watching DoaG yesterday it's pretty clear Blizzard has a track record of not taking toxicity seriously (I mean...they did hire Alex). But while watching the video it was clear that Blizzard with OW had no intention of trying to make sure players who were harassing others over performance ever saw any type of accountability for their words/speech. Which ultimatley drove OW into the ground it's in now, because without those actual toxicity control measures sponsors were pulling out which started the downward spiral for OW.

As I watched I started thinking to myself the problems that Kaplan faced with OW isn't just an OW issue, this is culture issue at the company. There's no real desire to try and create a welcoming space for everyone inside of their games.

BTW: Here's the link to the video. It's not dude who opines about things, but DoaG only does games that have gone into maintenance mode, or vanished.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ZFo8jpDfI

You can't filter out people with negative attitudes because there's no camps to put them in yet and these ideas lead to camps to put them in. Atleast alot of people get that and defend people they find poisonous because they know what happens when people are silenced.

The best solution will always be KINDNESS and FORGIVENESS. What of a tougher stance? If someone is rude to you and you can't handle it then it's your own issue of having too soft skin.

My skin is definitely soft and I don't like it when people are nasty towards me but if they'd all disappear then I'd know they all were silenced and that would make me sad.

[kaminaris]

Well... always is a strong term i've held top ten logs in mop for my class and while that isn't a sound metric I know I have also raided at the world top ten level during that time as well. ( I no longer have the time to play that many characters of course and am far more casual now).

There will always be better players perhaps but the community has handled toxicity perfectly. Toxic people very, very rarely make it out of the lowest brackets of content. There the ignore and chat filter system for wonderfully and you have not made a solid case for why more is needed. The issue has been handled they have been driven into the worst parts of the game and communities stand strong and united when they are centered around end game activities.

Even assuming you what you said is true.

So according to your logic you were always bad, not top 1? Bad, "toxic" and should be sealed in low level M+, lfr and unrated pvp.

And no, that is not "toxic" people, stop trying to twist words to fit your definition. Community didn't "handle" anything, toxicity in wow is blooming.

[neik]

Question is simple--would you like to see a stronger toxicity control team installed within WoW.

Personally after watching DoaG yesterday it's pretty clear Blizzard has a track record of not taking toxicity seriously (I mean...they did hire Alex). But while watching the video it was clear that Blizzard with OW had no intention of trying to make sure players who were harassing others over performance ever saw any type of accountability for their words/speech. Which ultimatley drove OW into the ground it's in now, because without those actual toxicity control measures sponsors were pulling out which started the downward spiral for OW.

As I watched I started thinking to myself the problems that Kaplan faced with OW isn't just an OW issue, this is culture issue at the company. There's no real desire to try and create a welcoming space for everyone inside of their games.

BTW: Here's the link to the video. It's not dude who opines about things, but DoaG only does games that have gone into maintenance mode, or vanished.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ZFo8jpDfI

Overwatch is an absolute PVP game, people tend to get heated in player versus player enviroment, regardless you are online or real world enviroment.

One thing I enjoyed about WoW in the past is that you could smack talk all day long in /LookingForGroup with zero fucks about anyone ever running over you because people in my server were absolutely chill. Wheres FF14 (and similar safe spaces) I found that you'd get quickly swarmed by those stronger toxicity control enforcers and probably fucked with a ban sooner than you think.

As long as you don't talk things that portray crime or tissue damage, people should be allowed to express themselves. And I say it fully aware what kind of enforcing you are probably desiring. Use in-game tools, /ignore and move on.

[odamienskii]

I'd say your first paragraph is hyperbole. It takes far longer to get lots of endgame gear than two or three weeks.

Tier sets are coming back. 10s are not casual content so I think the ilvl you get is appropriate. The point of the lower Torghast layers was apparent when we all had 170 or less item level. We only even had up to layer 3 the first few weeks.

Your entire third paragraph is a weird anecdote where someone tells you your spec sucks, gives you a weapon, and tells you respec? Ok?

I love your phrasing. "Mega bads." They won't be getting anywhere close to 20s, but nice anecdote.

How are the so called good players "forced" to play with "bads"? All you really have is hyperbole. "Ripping the same key 15 times"? Really? If someone sucks that badly they don't belong in keys. Remove them, and suggest they read the dungeon journal and try zeros until they learn what to do.

Its not for top level players, it took me 3 weeks to get 2500 rio when i rerolled to shaman, near max geared.

They are forced because what you dont understand is to go above (back when i was playing) 24. you need ALL players to

1) be tanky enough for the level, things like running shield shards if they are required (nearly always your party will get more output from the healer being able to dps more over say a run speed gem which could be replaced with a 5% run speed gem for 0.5% crit/haste/vers etc.
2) know when and where to use defensives, i dont mean randomly press some defensives now and again, i mean actually know where its needed, and whats coming next, the timing of whats coming next and how to stagger defensive, possibly use defensive potions, heal pots, or when to ask for an external, etc etc etc.
3) have enough knowledge to set up control like aoe stun > aoe disentorientate > single interupts > vortex knockback, something like that on a chain so you can pull huge.
4) Have enough output.


These kind of players are rare, and impossible to spot because there are sooooooooooooooooooooo many people that are also 2500 because its easy up to a certain point, after the certain point you need everyone to pull there weight and work together, not just pad meters, there are far too many of these clueless players that rip the keys for it to be a choice between taking them or not, simply the top level players dont exist anymore in pugs, even the top world players in bfa were piss piss poor, i remember sefty world 3 prot warrior leaping outside in shrine 28 eating ALL casts and then saying "this disc cant keep me up" no course he fucking cant, because you dont have the resto druid that was built FULLY to carry your retardedness with 7 hots on you spamming regrowth. that druid was knowledgable, saw his flaws and carried him, the result was he thought it was him that was good, didnt even know you can tnk those adds by los without taking a single cast, nope, just lept out and expected the disc priest to carry him, WORLD 3!!!!

Good players recognise other good players when the dungeon starts instantly, especially from a healer perspective where your job is to read what incoming damage is coming and you can see straight away who is set up right and who isnt, most of them dont have the rio they deserve because they are stuck with what i have described here.

Why you think when you look at your bnet all them good players you knew havent logged in for 4+ months? its not burnout, its sick of being forced to play with bad players.

What you said "so called" good players, when someone has multiple season been world 50 in m+, has 500+ DAYS played time and has many many years experience raiding, stood next to a guy that just started in shadowlands they look exactly the same because they are both op geared, they both hit the m+ bottleneck of 22/23 and both have the same rio, they arent both as good as each other, far from it, but on the surface blizzard has made it look like they are the same so they have to play with each other, pro player FACEROLLS it, because 23 is easy, while new player struggles and apolagises.

Talking about my own experience.

Around 6 months ago i was 1 of only 3 resto druids in the world to heal 23sd tyranical with several less ilvl and meh shards while the other 2 a guy from china and a guy from america had bis everything. i know how good i am, problem is it doesnt matter because the players that sign up in keys arent good enough to time keys, so you sit there for hours and hours and hours checking bad player bad player bad player, when you find a good player, you sit for another hour checking bad player bad player bad player and good player you found leaves "this is taking too long" so its not as easy as "just remove them" when your game goal is top world because frankly not many players are that good.