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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    It just looks shady as hell when people want to contact a GM directly but won't say why. There's no way to avoid that, and when your issue eventually does come out and is really simple it seems even shadier. People want to give advice, but not to ban evaders. The dude's problem was incredibly simple and tons of people have likely been in his shoes and could have told him the outcome, but he acted shady and that puts people on guard.
    To be honest, his only 'crime' was not outright saying 'I don't want to explain my problem here publicly' and be done with all the speculation. Cuz honestly, whatever the issue is, it's pointless to ask anyways, since no one here is in any position to solve the OP's problem in any tangible way.

    If he wants to talk to a GM about a bug report, then all anyone has to do is give the info about 'submit bug report will get you in contact with a GM if they think your report is worth following up on'. I don't really understand the need to prod further as though anyone here is an expert on solving bugs. If anything, all of this line of questioning is just an empty reason to 'put the OP in his place' as if talking to a GM is only reserved for the utmost important of requests. That's what's happening here when anyone suggests that 'we both know it's something simple or you know you are wrong about it' without considering the fact that no one here has any claim to that knowledge except the OP themselves.

    The OP is not wrong for being shady, cuz let's face it, there are people here who are looking for reasons to dismiss their claims. They don't even need a reason to dismiss it, as 'you know you are wrong' is already dismissing them without any reason at all.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-01-21 at 07:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  2. #142
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    To be honest, his only 'crime' was not outright saying 'I don't want to explain my problem here publicly' and be done with all the speculation. Cuz honestly, whatever the issue is, it's pointless to ask anyways, since no one here is in any position to solve the OP's problem in any tangible way.

    If he wants to talk to a GM about a bug report, then all anyone has to do is give the info about 'submit bug report will get you in contact with a GM if they think your report is worth following up on'. I don't really understand the need to prod further as though anyone here is an expert on solving bugs. If anything, all of this line of questioning is just an empty reason to 'put the OP in his place' as if talking to a GM is only reserved for the utmost important of requests. That's what's happening here when anyone suggests that 'we both know it's something simple or you know you are wrong about it' without considering the fact that no one here has any claim to that knowledge except the OP themselves.
    There's no crime here at all, he's perfectly within his right to not tell us why he wants to contact a GM, but that doesn't magically mean it doesn't look shady. People wanted to help him or give him advice, but not if his motivations were negative, like overturning a ban, so they had to "prod", and it turns out the issue was super basic and already answered on Blizzards FAQ page, but they guy still plodded through because I dunno maybe it's bugged that the system can't do something it says it can't do. And he didn't even settle for a basic e-mail ticket, he wanted the highest level of help. For a basic issue that Blizzard already told him they couldn't solve. It's almost funny because this is literally why they automate the system, tickets like this are a waste of time for the GMs and disrespectful to both them and people with actual issues.

  3. #143
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    I think the kind of support you're looking for is the "mom-and-pop" shop support found at small companies. That style of support simply does not scale to the level of Blizzard's customer base. I don't like it but it is what it is.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    There's no crime here at all, he's perfectly within his right to not tell us why he wants to contact a GM, but that doesn't magically mean it doesn't look shady. People wanted to help him or give him advice, but not if his motivations were negative, like overturning a ban, so they had to "prod", and it turns out the issue was super basic and already answered on Blizzards FAQ page, but they guy still plodded through because I dunno maybe it's bugged that the system can't do something it says it can't do. And he didn't even settle for a basic e-mail ticket, he wanted the highest level of help. For a basic issue that Blizzard already told him they couldn't solve. It's almost funny because this is literally why they automate the system, tickets like this are a waste of time for the GMs and disrespectful to both them and people with actual issues.
    That still doesn't justify what I pointed out earlier, that no one has the right to judge him on his problems as being 'something simple or you're doing it wrong' without knowing the nature of his problem.

    Just as you say, he's perfectly within his right not to tell us why, so I'm not sure why there are any other stipulations beyond that whether shady or not. People did help him out, just not the ones who criticize his reasonings for finding a GM. So there's that. His solutions weren't being solved by people prodding him further on his questions or by explaining how the system works. "What is gained by you personally talking with a GM who likely won't even know about the system well because that's not what GMS do? Why should Blizzard waste precious time and resources for literally nothing?" is itself an entitled opinion. You're not a Blizzard employee nor do you represent them, so why do you really care about what wastes Blizzard's resources? If they want to find a way to directly contact Blizzard about any problem, however insignificant, then surely that's within their reason to do so, and no one else's business.

    Now, I can say that coming to the forums and posting some technical issues isn't the right way to go about it, it doesn't mean that it's gonna be wasting Blizzard's resources for them to find a way to contact customer support either. It's really up to them to find their way, or simply said, inform them that there is little more than submitting tickets and hoping for the best. The rest is really none of anyone's business.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #145
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That still doesn't justify what I pointed out earlier, that no one has the right to judge him on his problems as being 'something simple or you're doing it wrong' without knowing the nature of his problem.

    Just as you say, he's perfectly within his right not to tell us why, so I'm not sure why there are any other stipulations beyond that whether shady or not. People did help him out, just not the ones who criticize his reasonings for finding a GM. So there's that. His solutions weren't being solved by people prodding him further on his questions or by explaining how the system works. "What is gained by you personally talking with a GM who likely won't even know about the system well because that's not what GMS do? Why should Blizzard waste precious time and resources for literally nothing?" is itself an entitled opinion. You're not a Blizzard employee nor do you represent them, so why do you really care about what wastes Blizzard's resources? If they want to find a way to directly contact Blizzard about any problem, however insignificant, then surely that's within their reason to do so, and no one else's business.

    Now, I can say that coming to the forums and posting some technical issues isn't the right way to go about it, it doesn't mean that it's gonna be wasting Blizzard's resources for them to find a way to contact customer support either. It's really up to them to find their way, or simply said, inform them that there is little more than submitting tickets and hoping for the best. The rest is really none of anyone's business.
    These systems are automated for a reason, and when people try to go around that with their basic issues that said automation solves, then it just leads to more automation. People abusing the system is why the system becomes more shite, so it's completely within my interest that people use them correctly, because I will inevitably need to use said systems myself. When his question is answered on the basic FAQ but he insists that the system is just faulty and wants to speak with the highest level, he just slows down the system being used to fix real problems.

    I've also worked in customer service. Pretty much anyone who has has encountered the person who just ignores the clearly posted rules and thinks they're an exception to them and tries to escalate. That's basically this situation, and why it resonates with certain people.
    Last edited by Jazzhands; 2022-01-21 at 08:43 PM.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    These systems are automated for a reason, and when people try to go around that with their basic issues that said automation solves, then it just leads to more automation. People abusing the system is why the system becomes more shite, so it's completely within my interest that people use them correctly, because I will inevitably need to use said systems myself. When his question is answered on the basic FAQ but he insists that the system is just faulty and wants to speak with the highest level, he just slows down the system being used to fix real problems.

    I've also worked in customer service. Pretty much anyone who has has encountered the person who just ignores the clearly posted rules and thinks they're an exception to them and tries to escalate. That's basically this situation, and why it resonates with certain people.
    Then isn't that your personal problem? You're bringing your own bias into the equation rather than 'helping the OP' as you intended to. You're actually looking to fit him into place because you value the system as-it-works more than satisfying his inquiry.

    Again, none of our business what he wants to do with the information we can provide him. These aren't reasons to 'put him in his place'. I don't think anyone is in any position to make that judgement. I mean just look at this thread, his solution comes from people giving the best insight they can and leaving it up to the OP to decide their course of action. The rest of this 'OP is entitled' judgement has not helped anyone, and simply flooded the thread with pointless rhetoric for the sake of 'being right'. Let's get real here, you aren't Blizzard customer service, and your answers weren't helping anyone by trying to put the guy in his place. It isn't anyone's business with how he chooses to 'waste Blizzard's time' if he wants to.

    Let's not confuse your personal experiences in customer service as validation for judging his inquiry on finding a direct means of reaching customer service. No one here has a right to make a judgement on how important his question needs to be answered. That's between him and Blizzard.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-01-21 at 08:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then isn't that your personal problem? You're bringing your own bias into the equation rather than 'helping the OP' as you intended to. You're actually looking to fit him into place because you value the system as-it-works more than satisfying his inquiry.

    Again, none of our business what he wants to do with the information we can provide him. These aren't reasons to 'put him in his place'. I don't think anyone is in any position to make that judgement. I mean just look at this thread, his solution comes from people giving the best insight they can and leaving it up to the OP to decide their course of action. The rest of this 'OP is entitled' judgement has not helped anyone, and simply flooded the thread with pointless rhetoric for the sake of 'being right'. Let's get real here, you aren't Blizzard customer service, and your answers weren't helping anyone by trying to put the guy in his place. It isn't anyone's business with how he chooses to 'waste Blizzard's time' if he wants to.

    Let's not confuse your personal experiences in customer service as validation for judging his inquiry on finding a direct means of reaching customer service. No one here has a right to make a judgement on how important his question needs to be answered. That's between him and Blizzard.
    He is 100% right and you have no idea what you are talking about.

    Its because of customers that "wants to speak with manager" for every single small thing, companies put more and more barriers which ultimately makes shit experience for everyone else because even if you have legitimate reason, you are going to wait couple of days. Or you will have to overcome these barriers somehow.

    This whole thing could have been literally 2 posts if, instead of complaining he asked if "conduits can be restored using system".
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  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    He is 100% right and you have no idea what you are talking about.

    Its because of customers that "wants to speak with manager" for every single small thing, companies put more and more barriers which ultimately makes shit experience for everyone else because even if you have legitimate reason, you are going to wait couple of days. Or you will have to overcome these barriers somehow.
    You literally say that I have no idea what I'm talking about, but you said "Or you will have to overcome these barriers somehow." which is what I was talking about. It's none of our business if the OP is looking to overcome that barrier for their own reason. They don't owe us an answer to why they want to.

    Not sure why you're interjecting yourself to tell me I'm wrong and I don't know what I'm talking about when it's really you who don't seem to understand what's being said here, especially if you're going to add some caveat to your own statement which confirms what I've been saying.

    Let's not pretend that the system is fucked because of the OP. It's not even 'people like him'. It's Blizzard's choice to automate their systems rather than hire more GMs, because it's simply more cost effective for them to do so. There are many other companies that have both an automated system AND a direct method of contacting in-person customer support, so let's not pretend it's anyone (here)'s fault that Blizzard's system has been designed to completely cut out direct GM contact. It's Blizzard's own decision to do so.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-01-22 at 04:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  9. #149
    Blizzard employees identified... Being able to talk to a human was part of the monthly service we were all paying for and now it's been replaced by an infuriating automated clusterf so Bobby can buy his 8th vacation house.

  10. #150
    Yeah, Bobby has been decreasing quality of support for many years, while we still pay sub fee for it, so this support is paid. It's true. So ingame help and dealing with bugs is almost non-existent now. You're either sent to WowHead or to placebo bug reporting form. May be not for all categories, but it's possible. Yeah, Blizzard employees don't like it, but if you really need real employee - try "Account" category. First list of articles will be shown, but there still will be "I still need help" button, that will lead to opening ticket.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
    Blizzard employees identified... Being able to talk to a human was part of the monthly service we were all paying for and now it's been replaced by an infuriating automated clusterf so Bobby can buy his 8th vacation house.
    Yes we're obviously Blizzard employees.

    You pay a subscription fee to have access to their games (so both retail and classic). No where has it ever been stated that paying a subscription fee entitles you to be able to talk to a support representative for every little problem you have. The whole point of the automated system is to lower wait times for people with actual proper issues that need to be dealt with by a support representative. OP's issue was easily solved through the automated system.
    I believe you have my stapler...

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Item restoration, helping stuck players, and answering basic questions all fall under the purview of bot work, IMO - you don't need a live GM to help you with that.
    My point is not that item restoration should not be using a bot for 80%+ of cases. The bot should be used for 80%+ of cases because 90% of the items lost by players are easily found there. My point is that it's an fallacious personal attack calling people "Karen" for wanting manual tickets too because a) rare cases exist b) sometimes the system is unclear (e.g. "I know my item is restorable but it's unclear if I destroyed it within the time limit so I want a human to check") c) there's nothing wrong for gamers to be wrong to open a ticket once in a while if it won't be wrong to open a ticket at other times for various reasons (including there's nothing wrong with human contact even if it's not 100% necessary all the time).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    c) there's nothing wrong for gamers to be wrong to open a ticket once in a while
    The problem is that "once in a while" doesn't apply once you get past a certain number of players.

    If you have a gutter that drips "once in a while" it's not a super big deal. Attach a firehose to the other end and watch it collapse.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerph- View Post
    No where has it ever been stated that paying a subscription fee entitles you to be able to talk to a support representative for every little problem you have. The whole point of the automated system is to lower wait times for people with actual proper issues that need to be dealt with by a support representative. OP's issue was easily solved through the automated system.
    Your car problem was easily solved by letting its computer tell you everything about it; you don't need support for that; the computer only fails rarely /s.

    There are so many fallacies in this thread that it's hard to keep count; but they are repeated; and it''s pretty clear what their source is in the end:
    a) Hindsight is 20/20; people here use my own disclosure as supposedly an argument; I could have told them a case that the ticket helped instead
    b) Computers are not infallible; 80%+ of the time those systems may be fine; sometimes they may fail and there is nothing wrong to check
    c) Even if humans are wrong: there's nothing wrong with confirmation; these items were unclear to me; human contact builds trust

    People often like to demean others; they may call them stupid or entitled; they rarely want to see a positive side.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by fatgunn View Post
    "once in a while" doesn't apply once you get past a certain number of players.
    "Dear customers: we understand that some of our cars have killed you, but please use our automated in-car computer to support your car problem; it really does work 80%+ of the time and we are passed the number of people that call us about it so please don't be naive and entitled".
    Last edited by epigramx; 2022-01-22 at 05:27 AM.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Yes, but that's not a conversation: it would be sent into a pool of reports.

    I wanted to see if they can solve my problem faster.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You are ignored for past personal attacks, but in case anyone believes this person: that's a lie and a fabrication.

    The issue has nothing to do with banning.
    Everyone wants their problem solved faster, to do so they automated as much of the process as possible so the few people they have can work problems rather than waste time in slow moving conversations. If they have questions about your issue they will reach out. I know this because they have followed up with me about a bug I reported as well as another raid members.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
    Blizzard employees identified... Being able to talk to a human was part of the monthly service we were all paying for and now it's been replaced by an infuriating automated clusterf so Bobby can buy his 8th vacation house.
    Being able to talk to a human was never part of your monthly service. You even agreed to that in the EULA that you are only paying for access to the game WHEN it is available. And, that is so Booby can buy his 10th vacation home, his 8th yacht, and his 3rd small island in the Caribbean.
    when all else fails, read the STICKIES.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You literally say that I have no idea what I'm talking about, but you said "Or you will have to overcome these barriers somehow." which is what I was talking about. It's none of our business if the OP is looking to overcome that barrier for their own reason. They don't owe us an answer to why they want to.

    Not sure why you're interjecting yourself to tell me I'm wrong and I don't know what I'm talking about when it's really you who don't seem to understand what's being said here, especially if you're going to add some caveat to your own statement which confirms what I've been saying.

    Let's not pretend that the system is fucked because of the OP. It's not even 'people like him'. It's Blizzard's choice to automate their systems rather than hire more GMs, because it's simply more cost effective for them to do so. There are many other companies that have both an automated system AND a direct method of contacting in-person customer support, so let's not pretend it's anyone (here)'s fault that Blizzard's system has been designed to completely cut out direct GM contact. It's Blizzard's own decision to do so.
    Because you totally missed the point. Trying to get around automated systems that should literally do the trick under the pretense of "finding a bug" is the exact problem we are talking about here. It makes customer service worse for everyone. Its not something community should be doing and be fine with.

    Ultimately both parties are at fault, from one side customers that try to demand their wishes to "talk to blizz employee" come true by using various questionable method pushes blizzard to make it even harder to actually talk to GM. Fuck, I waited 4 days one time for GM to un-bug the quest for me BUT as opposed to OP i literally spend 2 hours doing google and forum searches before (yes it was genuine bug, gm logged into my acc and manually fixed quest).

    And from the blizz side trying to cut down the costs of support.

    So when i actually report genuine bugs, no wonder they go straight to trash. Ain't nobody got time to read that. One bug i reported in bfa beta was fixed in last patch - pets bugged on last platform, last boss in siege of boralus. 2 years later.
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  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Because you totally missed the point. Trying to get around automated systems that should literally do the trick under the pretense of "finding a bug" is the exact problem we are talking about here. It makes customer service worse for everyone. Its not something community should be doing and be fine with.
    Except you're not right about this at all. You say it makes customer service worse for everyone, but you don't realize that your argument involves no customer service at all. It's all an automated interface with no real ability to contact customer service. Effectively, there is no service at all other than servicing yourself.

    As for something the community to do, no of course it is not. I have clearly said in previous statements that the OP wasn't correct in asking on fan forums for help, since we're not Blizzard employees. But you have to realize that my original statements here were in defense of him keeping his privacy and not answering prodding questions, not whether the automated system works or not. If he chooses to find a different method to further contact Blizzard directly, then that's his prerogative. It does not justify anyone here making a judgement call on their actions, since we're not Blizzard employees nor does anyone here have any affect on the service overall.

    Like I said above, Blizzard is the one that made the choice to automate their systems and cut 800+ employees back in 2019, much of which came from their support team. And basically what you're doing here is supporting that decision to automate their support systems instead of hiring people to do those jobs, because you support the idea that no one should have access to any GM as the system already works right now with the inability to submit a ticket that gets you a direct response.

    What you're arguing here is your own subjective opinion, one which I do not agree with.

    Ultimately both parties are at fault, from one side customers that try to demand their wishes to "talk to blizz employee" come true by using various questionable method pushes blizzard to make it even harder to actually talk to GM. Fuck, I waited 4 days one time for GM to un-bug the quest for me BUT as opposed to OP i literally spend 2 hours doing google and forum searches before (yes it was genuine bug, gm logged into my acc and manually fixed quest).
    And now you have zero ability to contact a GM directly if you really need to because their systems are almost fully automated, and you somehow think that's better than having any ability to contact a GM at all. I find that amusing, but hey, everyone has their own opinion on things.

    If this happened to any of the major services I use, like telecom or shopping sites like Amazon, people would flip. There can exist an automated system that helps take care of the majority of simple stuff, but there should always also be an alternative direct contact since these are services people are paying for. That's my opinion on paid services.

    But I guess for some people, since it's Blizzard doing it, it's okay cuz they're saving some money and an automated system is better than having any human customer service for the subscription you actively pay for. I won't understand this mentality nor agree with it, but I'll accept it since this place always surprises me with how people value things differently. Again, we aren't Blizzard employees, so there's no reason for any paying customer to concern themselves with Blizzard's customer support team being bogged down with 'trivial requests'. How they decide to handle that is up to them. It's not something which is validated here simply because the OP's request seems trivial.

    If the system works as is and people are fine with there being no direct way to contact a GM or customer support, then that's really up to the people who accept this as their reality. I don't play WoW nor use its services, so really how the service works today doesn't affect me in the slightest. I just find it amusing that so many people seem to think having less customer support is somehow a good thing for a game that still has monthly fees which are supposed to cover this very thing.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-01-22 at 07:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #159
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    For understandable reasons Blizzard has terminated most of their voice support and replaced it with highly automated systems. That's unfortunate from one point of view and I understand that. I don't deal with Blizzard support very often but often enough it's a frustrating experience when I must.

    That said: The sort of person that loudly demands to talk to the manager and won't let it go is one of the reasons why tech support has gone the route they have. Never mind that the next step is to post a veiled version of the story on a forum that will achieve no practical effect except to grab some apparently needed attention. It's a frequent thing here and it never ends well.

    The stories of verbal abuse, threats to support personnel and constant demands to have their tickets escalated to the highest level possible are numerous and has led to where we are. It sucks but so it goes.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-01-22 at 07:46 AM.
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  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    For understandable reasons Blizzard has terminated most of their voice support and replaced it with highly automated systems. That's unfortunate from one point of view and I understand that. I don't deal with Blizzard support very often but often enough it's a frustrating experience when I must.

    That said: The sort of person that loudly demands to talk to the manager and won't let it go is one of the reasons why tech support has gone the route they have. Never mind that the next step is to post a veiled version of the story on a forum that will achieve no practical effect except to grab some apparently needed attention. It's a frequent thing here and it never ends well.

    The stories of verbal abuse, threats to support personnel and constant demands to have their tickets escalated to the highest level possible are numerous and has led to where we are. It sucks but so it goes.
    I would find it highly dubious to suggest that automated systems are being put in place as a means to protect the GM's when we saw a majority of them get cut back in 2019. The stories are one thing (which I would believe to be true), but the reality is that this move is very likely driven by corporate reasons to save on overhead than anything else. Let's not kid ourselves with Blizzard having done this to protect their employees, especially so soon after the scandals and the ongoing situation of employees fighting for their rights and unionization.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-01-22 at 08:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

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