Seriously - Are People Actually Fine with SL's Vault System?

[ReesePieces]

The hell are you smoking? Casual can easily get Mythic raid quality gear by just slowly do +15, you don't even have to wait for the next patch for it.

WOW is like 5 times more casual friendly than FFXIV.

So tell me how to get ilvl 259 gear/weapons slowly from +15s. Oh, that's right...you can't. So I guess the question is, what the hell are you smoking?

[Kalisandra]

The hell are you smoking? Casual can easily get Mythic raid quality gear by just slowly do +15, you don't even have to wait for the next patch for it.

And that gets them one piece per week of boss 1-8 level gear. Whoopie. The rest is capped at heroic after spending a lot of time grinding valour to upgrade it.

[tomten]

Never really played classic, cause its dogshit. TBC I just did back when it was current, I dont really go back in time.

You dont go back in time but you want it to be like...it was...back in the time?
Logic much?

having 3 pieces per 20man going from 5...was just whack...I dont know a single person except you who actually liked it...
Even myself, who wanted "loot to matter", hated it just a month+ into the tier...

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And I call bs on that multiple got no loot in several clears. I had guildies say the same thing. I checked the log, and they got loot. It just wasnt an upgrade for them. Because, even if the raid loot was scarce just like raids in TBC, we have the GV, m+ and PvP that all give competive loot. Still too much imo.

Also... Getting loot from GV == drops from raid? Not really the same is it? One being 100% guaranteed and one being 3/20 chance... The later being what we're discussing in terms on no loot for 20+ kills.

[Doffen]

You dont go back in time but you want it to be like...it was...back in the time?
Logic much?

Ah, its gotcha time? Because wanting loot to be like it was in TBC = want it all back, story and systems alike right? Don't talk about logic when you write stuff like this, please. If you want to be smug, at least make an effort.

having 3 pieces per 20man going from 5...was just whack...I dont know a single person except you who actually liked it...
Even myself, who wanted "loot to matter", hated it just a month+ into the tier...

That's how a echo chamber works. How about the rest of the people you don't know who raided CN and didn't quit the game before after the loot change. Thought about that or?

Also... Getting loot from GV == drops from raid? Not really the same is it? One being 100% guaranteed and one being 3/20 chance... The later being what we're discussing in terms on no loot for 20+ kills.

That was not the point. The point is that the gear design in SL is that we have The Great Vault as a supplement. So in essence, when you only got like 1 item that one raid, all bosses killed, you got a 100% item from the raid in The Great Vault. So if you only raided, you would get 2 items from the raid that week. Which is enough, especially since you yourself said you wanted loot to matter. Though it doesn't really seem like it.

One thing isn't excluding the rest.

[arkanon]

That's not the point. Doing a normal boss with mythic gear is overpowering it by a lot, but that doesn't change the fact that most people - bar the best ones - "overpower it" too. By less, but they still do. And suddenly you decide overpowering it with TF gear is not fine, but overpowering it with non-TF gear is fine? Why is that? What is the exact margin of overpowering it when it's still fine and when it's not? There's none. Overpowering bosses with ilvl is the nature of this game. If it wasn't, the game would simply scale all the gear to the chosen difficulty (a la Mage Tower). You putting a boundary of "acceptable overpower" here or there is completely arbitrary.

Disagree completely. You are arguing against things I never said. You know the biggest hole in your argument? People struggling on a normal boss do not run mythic raids. They can't do normal, let alone heroic let alone mythic. If you have a set of gear from normal, a full set, but you still can't kill boss x, gear is NOT the issue, the players are. Either low skill, bad strat, or just terrible execution. Either way, the content is too hard for you. Wait until the next patch and run it then, or, run lfr. Or, shock horror, practice, learn, improve, and defeat the boss.

To claim it has "always been" that way is amusing, considering the latest raid generally dropped the best gear, and there was only one difficulty, then eventually 2. It was SOO before any big changes happened in this regard.

[MrLachyG]

the Vault is fine, it's a lot better than the weekly chest. Gives far more options, doesn't solely require you to do M+ and allows you to target pieces of gear by targeting the content you do. Do I wish they would bring the bonus roll back? absolutely. Do I wish we would get adventures for raid loot as we did in WoD and Legion (and maybe BfA I can't remember)? yes. although that last one though goes against the whole "anima is optional" stance of Blizz

[tomten]

Ah, its gotcha time? Because wanting loot to be like it was in TBC = want it all back, story and systems alike right? Don't talk about logic when you write stuff like this, please. If you want to be smug, at least make an effort.

That's how a echo chamber works. How about the rest of the people you don't know who raided CN and didn't quit the game before after the loot change. Thought about that or?


That was not the point. The point is that the gear design in SL is that we have The Great Vault as a supplement. So in essence, when you only got like 1 item that one raid, all bosses killed, you got a 100% item from the raid in The Great Vault. So if you only raided, you would get 2 items from the raid that week. Which is enough, especially since you yourself said you wanted loot to matter. Though it doesn't really seem like it.

One thing isn't excluding the rest.

Not at all, it was a honest question since you brought it up how you wanted it to be like TBC again and contradicted yourself.

Seeing how many people have quit and how vocal everyone been about loot, its just to far fetched to assume thats the general sentiment and a tiny minority, such as yourself, liked it? What's so odd about that conclusion?

That was the point, you trying to change that means very little?
But sure, we can go there. Do you remember badges? Valor? etc? Same same but different.
Back to the actual point though, the loot drop rate was whack and blizzard agreed and changed it. Anything more you want to try and derail?

[Civciv]

Yes, I am.

/10chars

[Gestopft]

And worst part of it, it creates huge gaps between unlucky and lucky players at the start of patch.

How is getting a great piece from the vault ANY different from getting a great weapon drop from a boss the first week in terms of "creating huge gaps between unlucky and lucky players?"

[Loli-Knight]

This is going to sound backwards, but as a (mythic) raider I actually like the weekly chest. I actually despise Mythic+ itself, but as the raid continues to refuse to drop the majority of gear I need (Soulrender still hasn't dropped his shoulders for me or our 3 other platies after almost 3 months) I've actually gotten the majority of my gear from the weekly chest. The easy 3 weekly gear choices from M+ actually enable me to get almost everything I needed, whereas after all this time Mythic Sanctum has still only given me 4 pieces repeatedly (boots/gloves/chest/head).

Again, absolutely fucking hate M+, but for some dumb reason it's where all of my gear as a raider is coming from so I'm okay with it for now. If they were to reintroduce boss coin rerolls (which, incidentally, are where I got the majority of my gear from in previous expansions, not actual raw boss drops) then I'd probably stop doing M+ to supplement my raid gearing.

[arkanon]

How is getting a great piece from the vault ANY different from getting a great weapon drop from a boss the first week in terms of "creating huge gaps between unlucky and lucky players?"

When you kill a heroic boss and get a good heroic weapon, thats earned, and absolutely fine. Getting a mythic quality weapon off a normal mode boss, in my opinion, is not. And yes, i realize this isnt a common occurrence, im just using an extreme example to outline the argument.

[ReesePieces]

We went from a system where you could continuously run M+ dungeons for chance at great loot due to Titanforging and M+ loot being competitive to raid loot, to the current system that we have, where running M+ solely exists to add another slot to your Great Vault for increased loot choice quality.

Correct, it is back to raid or die. https://raider.io/characters/eu/twis...on=season-sl-2

Top M+ tank in the world has 7 ilvl 259 pieces which are only obtainable from CE Mythic raiding.

[kaminaris]

How is getting a great piece from the vault ANY different from getting a great weapon drop from a boss the first week in terms of "creating huge gaps between unlucky and lucky players?"

Because it awards item level above the content you do. Its absolutely trash design.

Not sure if pvp is still a thing but at the beginning of shitlands, people did quick pvp straight to max ilvl weapon first week while you got a fucking bracers.

And the addition to that, weekly bingo lottery (because its not GV, i refuse to call that shit anything "great") is one of the reason why loot is scarce.

[Rageonit]

Disagree completely. You are arguing against things I never said. You know the biggest hole in your argument? People struggling on a normal boss do not run mythic raids. They can't do normal, let alone heroic let alone mythic. If you have a set of gear from normal, a full set, but you still can't kill boss x, gear is NOT the issue, the players are. Either low skill, bad strat, or just terrible execution. Either way, the content is too hard for you. Wait until the next patch and run it then, or, run lfr. Or, shock horror, practice, learn, improve, and defeat the boss. To claim it has "always been" that way is amusing, considering the latest raid generally dropped the best gear, and there was only one difficulty, then eventually 2. It was SOO before any big changes happened in this regard.

Funny how you put "always been" in a quote - two words I didn't use in my post. I've only said it's the nature of the game we're playing, and I'm making no judgments whether it's good or bad or when has it started. I'm only pointing out the obvious hole in your argument about TF being bad, because it's used to "overpower bosses". People overpower bosses all the time: with m+ gear, hell, even with world content gear. Or take a good look at classic and world buffs - how's that not overpowering it? But suddenly you decide to draw the boundary at TF. It's arbitrary, and that's a fact. If you want to play a game with no overpowering, go play something that doesn't have character progression as one of its main features - I don't know, "Cuphead" or something.

[paxen]

Correct, it is back to raid or die. https://raider.io/characters/eu/twis...on=season-sl-2

Top M+ tank in the world has 7 ilvl 259 pieces which are only obtainable from CE Mythic raiding.

Yeah, people complaining about M+ giving too much gear are just in denial. To truly excel at M+ you also need to actively raid at the highest level, which is bullshit. It is *only* saved by 15s being comparatively easier than mythic raiding, but once you can do 15s there are no more options for gearing in M+.

I really do think they need to separate raid gear and M+ gear better. The best gear for a major endgame activity should come from that activity, and not another aspect entirely.

[Soon-TM]

I really do think they need to separate raid gear and M+ gear better. The best gear for a major endgame activity should come from that activity, and not another aspect entirely.

They should also disable M+ trinkets in raids and vice-versa. That way they wouldn't have to worry about people being "forced" to do X if they are only interested in Y.

[DechCJC]

The main issue I have is how far and away dominating Mythic + is as the main source of vault loot. If you’re in an ‘average’ raiding guild, it’s simply not going to cut it to just raid for loot as getting 3 or more mythic kills can take players weeks or even months (depending on the guild). Yet, getting a few +15s done is within anyone’s grasp with very little difficulty (and early in the season too). Three pieces of vault loot from the raid will take most players literal months to get, yet they can achieve the same from mythic plus within the first or second week. This makes mythic plus feel mandatory to most raiders if they don’t want to feel like they’re holding the group back.

The same comparison can be made with PvP, while getting 2100 and farming honor is a fair bit easier than clearing mythic, it’s a huge leap up from +15s. Though with PvP loot being near useless in PvE this isn’t as much of a factor now.

I’m fortunate enough to not be affected by this, but I know many who dislike Mythic plus that feel a lot of disdain for the system, as their guild simply isn’t good enough to obtain the same level of loot from the vault early on in the season. Frankly, very few guilds are good enough; I’d argue that you need to at least be in a top 100 mythic guild to totally push aside the need for mythic+ vault loot, but then you’re likely farming it for specific trinkets and items to min max anyway.

[kamuimac]

This is more of a question than a rant at this point, as I'm 9 months separated from the game as of writing this. This is also more in regards to how it pertains to M+ for the most part.

But are people really fine with how it currently is? I know people who exclusively play WoW can lose touch with fundamental design as they are sucked into its specific analytic/statistical design, and as they opt to no longer play other games since WoW demands such a heavy time investment, being what it is. I've seen little to no complaints regarding this, so I'm taking the default assumption that nobody in the WoW community cares or in fact actually likes the current setup.

Specifically, I'm talking about the fact that SL's Vault System massively changed how loot is rewarded in M+ dungeons from BfA to now. We went from a system where you could continuously run M+ dungeons for chance at great loot due to Titanforging and M+ loot being competitive to raid loot, to the current system that we have, where running M+ solely exists to add another slot to your Great Vault for increased loot choice quality.

My main issue with this is that I really like killing monsters and watching them drop quality loot. Currently, this is no longer possible with M+ as the mode does not reward competitive loot, but only serves a function of being an aggregator for your Vault rewards.

I would personally like to go back to enjoying seeing competitive loot drop in the dungeons themselves. Removing or redesigning the Vault System, however you go about it is required.

90 % of players left game by now.

ofc people who are still playing game are ok with it

those who were not ok are playing FF14 instead wow atm .

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The main issue I have is how far and away dominating Mythic + is as the main source of vault loot. If you’re in an ‘average’ raiding guild, it’s simply not going to cut it to just raid for loot as getting 3 or more mythic kills can take players weeks or even months (depending on the guild). Yet, getting a few +15s done is within anyone’s grasp with very little difficulty (and early in the season too). Three pieces of vault loot from the raid will take most players literal months to get, yet they can achieve the same from mythic plus within the first or second week. This makes mythic plus feel mandatory to most raiders if they don’t want to feel like they’re holding the group back.

The same comparison can be made with PvP, while getting 2100 and farming honor is a fair bit easier than clearing mythic, it’s a huge leap up from +15s. Though with PvP loot being near useless in PvE this isn’t as much of a factor now.

I’m fortunate enough to not be affected by this, but I know many who dislike Mythic plus that feel a lot of disdain for the system, as their guild simply isn’t good enough to obtain the same level of loot from the vault early on in the season. Frankly, very few guilds are good enough; I’d argue that you need to at least be in a top 100 mythic guild to totally push aside the need for mythic+ vault loot, but then you’re likely farming it for specific trinkets and items to min max anyway.

so maybe get better in game if you want more of those raid loot drops ?

nah that is crazy i know

[Rageonit]

They should also disable M+ trinkets in raids and vice-versa. That way they wouldn't have to worry about people being "forced" to do X if they are only interested in Y.

It would work for people who are interested in only one type of activity, and thoroughly suck for people who enjoy to mix them. It's unfun when you get a great piece of gear in the raid and then can't use it in a dungeon, only because certain players can't stand the fact they can't be BiS in their chosen activity without doing the other. It stands against some of the core principles of gaming as a fun and relaxing activity, and for what? To appease the "competitive spirit" of a small percentage of the most hardcore players? If you want to be competitive, go show off yours kills in M+ Internationals, where the grounds are even for everybody.

[DechCJC]

90 % of players left game by now.

ofc people who are still playing game are ok with it

those who were not ok are playing FF14 instead wow atm .

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so maybe get better in game if you want more of those raid loot drops ?

nah that is crazy i know

Or just don't get better and do +15s, that's my point.

Also, it's not even a matter of 'getting better', raiding is 20 players. If you're in a guild with your friends, you're only going to be as good as the weakest links. A fair majority of mythic raiders raid for the fun and social aspect and are totally ok with not being in a top guild, as long as they clear Mythic that tier eventually. You can be a garbage player in a top guild or an amazing player in a bottom guild; It's not like a top player from Echo could join a guild just entering Mythic and suddenly carry it to Sylvannas.

I have one mate that ended out quitting the game in this scenario. He didn't mind getting less loot, he was totally fine with just treating the game as if he could just raid, but the reality is you can't. If you're in a slower paced guild and you abstain from Mythic +, you are eventually going to be tens of ilvls behind the rest of the raid team. Sure, you can still clear the content and it's not going to be the defining factor; But imagine the entire guild decided that they weren't going to do M+. The entire guild is now tens of ilvl's behind what they could have been if they just did their +15s each week.

My mate didn't want to do M+, he wanted to raid. He was ok with being a few ilvls behind others, but guilds are rarely accepting of such a mentality. Even if they'll bring you along, there's an aura of frustration if players are purposely making themselves weaker than they could be. He ended out quitting because of how much of an under-dog he felt like with regards to gear, despite the fact that he was one of the top performing players. The guild simply wasn't good enough to justify just raiding, very few are early on.

The point is, M+ is basically mandatory content for any kind of raiding guild that doesn't Blitz Mythic in the first month or so if players don't want to feel like they're holding others back. In other words, the majority of players. If you want to push M+, you just do M+. If you want to PvP, you just PvP. But if you want to raid, the vast majority of players are going to look to M+ for a long time in order to actually get pieces of gear from the vault that are the max ilvl. Obviously, there are reasons to push into other areas of content if you want to truly min max, but with regards to just getting the 'best ilvl', raiding and the vault is a problem.

For the record, this isn't even my problem, it's just a problem that I have recognized amongst many players in the community. It doesn't affect me. In season 1 I didn't need to do M+ because I PvP'd early and essentially got fully Mythic gear without stepping foot in to the raid, that was another problem entirely.