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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The lore treats Tinkers as synonymous with Engineer. We have various NPCs called this, including trainers and vendors. We have multiple references to Tinkers within the Engineering profession itself, including the name of various body upgrades called 'Tinkers'. We have the Tinkers mentioned by name in the Engineering Works garrison as well:

    The Engineering Works produces a host of useful gizmos and parts for the intrepid tinkerer, and also creates wondrous mechanical devices.


    All in all, Tinkers/Tinkerers are another name for Engineers. That's how WoW has been treating the name.
    Have you seen the lore in the game? It's a mess and it's not exactly a holy scripture that's blaphemous to change.

    Also your example literally says engineers create items for tinkerers, it doesn't say tinkerers use them exclusviely. Engineers can create items for Priests in game...

    You can easily expand on the concept.
    1) Load the amount of weight I would deadlift onto the bench
    2) Unrack
    3) Crank out 15 reps
    4) Be ashamed of constantly skipping leg day

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    Have you seen the lore in the game? It's a mess and it's not exactly a holy scripture that's blaphemous to change.

    Also your example literally says engineers create items for tinkerers, it doesn't say tinkerers use them exclusviely. Engineers can create items for Priests in game...

    You can easily expand on the concept.
    engineers are tinkers, its just another term used for tinkers like Brewmasters are monks.

    Blizzard could expand on the concept and add ANY thing in the game Dark rangers, Bards, Necromancers, Some new class

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post

    The Dark Ranger items I'm talking about are the Dark Ranger's Hood, Rae'shalare, and Dark Ranger's Quiver.

    You're talking about some random engineering items from a profession, while I'm talking about the literal bow and quiver that Sylvanas uses that grants ONE class in the game actual Dark Ranger abilities. Can you seriously not tell the difference?
    I don't really wish to argue with you as you seem to take it personally, but this here is inherently false. You are wrong. None of these are permanent, though. Rae'shalare will be quickly replaced by questing greens next expansion and with it the abilities attached to it. It's the same with the quiver. No one is going to pass up a damage boost to keep the abilities tied to an obsolete weapon/back item. After Shadowlands, all both the bow and the quiver will be useless beyond transmog. The Dark Ranger's hood can be worn by both shaman and hunters as it is a mail item. A hood does not a Dark Ranger make. Black Arrow is gone and I'm glad as it did not mesh with the themes and aesthetic of the hunter class.

    I think what these people are trying to say, is that by dismissing Dark Rangers as hunters you are doing the same thing they are by equating tinkers with the engineering profession. Dark Rangers are no more plain hunters than hunters with mechanical pets and engineering are tinkers. Neither fantasy is satisfied in one class or profession. You will certainly disagree and that is fine.

    Tinkers, with enough imagination, despite not being my thing, can be distinct enough from engineering and hunters. In that same token, so can Dark Rangers. By applying what I've seen in game either class is equally likely/possible. Never say never as you once said yourself.

  4. #404
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by datguy81 View Post
    Funny only brew masters I could find were monk trainers odd
    Because you need to use classic WoW (pre-MoP)

    https://tbc.wowhead.com/search?q=Brewmaster

    Does the same thing as cluster rockets

    Cluster Rocket
    40 yd range
    Channeled (2 sec cast) 15 sec cooldown
    Fires a rocket into the air that will split into many small rockets and hit all targets in a radius.

    Goblin Rocket Launcher
    Item Level 70
    Binds when equipped
    Trinket
    +45 Stamina
    Use: Fire a powerful rocket at the enemy that does 960 to 1440 damage and stuns them for 3 sec. This thing has quite a kick though... (2 Min Cooldown)

    That's the same thing?


    its wow not Wc3 or hots and again in wow it is a mount not a dps tool


    We have this in WoW.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    snip.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/G.M.O.D.

    the goblin version its a mount


    Cluster rockets in wc3 are rockets thats tun same at the item

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Except that is a double standard because the Monk class houses the Brewmaster's abilities. Engineering does not house the Tinker's abilities.
    Blizzard has shown these double standards all the time.

    Alchemists are no different here. It's a profession, and not a class. These names and titles are being defined by gameplay.

    Uh no. Abilities define the class. If you don't have the abilities, you don't have the class.
    Abilities don't define anything except gameplay. Abilities can be taken away from a class at any given time, so your argument would be a class' definition gets removed every time Blizzard does ability pruning or a revamp.

    Is the Warlock anything less than a Warlock because it had Metamorphosis give to them and taken away? It's always been a Warlock, regardless of whether it had Metamorphosis or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  7. #407
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by She of Three Faces View Post
    I don't really wish to argue with you as you seem to take it personally, but this here is inherently false. You are wrong. None of these are permanent, though. Rae'shalare will be quickly replaced by questing greens next expansion and with it the abilities attached to it. It's the same with the quiver. No one is going to pass up a damage boost to keep the abilities tied to an obsolete weapon/back item. After Shadowlands, all both the bow and the quiver will be useless beyond transmog.
    That is an assumption. There's also a good likelihood that those abilities will simply be moved into the Hunter class. Wailing Arrow for example is already listed as a Hunter ability;

    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=355589/wailing-arrow

    The Dark Ranger's hood can be worn by both shaman and hunters as it is a mail item. A hood does not a Dark Ranger make. Black Arrow is gone and I'm glad as it did not mesh with the themes and aesthetic of the hunter class.
    The Dark Ranger hood can only be obtained by Hunters. The Shaman can get it via transmog, but if you don't have a Hunter, you're not getting the hood.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by She of Three Faces View Post
    I don't really wish to argue with you as you seem to take it personally, but this here is inherently false. You are wrong. None of these are permanent, though. Rae'shalare will be quickly replaced by questing greens next expansion and with it the abilities attached to it. It's the same with the quiver. No one is going to pass up a damage boost to keep the abilities tied to an obsolete weapon/back item. After Shadowlands, all both the bow and the quiver will be useless beyond transmog. The Dark Ranger's hood can be worn by both shaman and hunters as it is a mail item. A hood does not a Dark Ranger make. Black Arrow is gone and I'm glad as it did not mesh with the themes and aesthetic of the hunter class.

    I think what these people are trying to say, is that by dismissing Dark Rangers as hunters you are doing the same thing they are by equating tinkers with the engineering profession. Dark Rangers are no more plain hunters than hunters with mechanical pets and engineering are tinkers. Neither fantasy is satisfied in one class or profession. You will certainly disagree and that is fine.

    Tinkers, with enough imagination, despite not being my thing, can be distinct enough from engineering and hunters. In that same token, so can Dark Rangers. By applying what I've seen in game either class is equally likely/possible. Never say never as you once said yourself.
    Yea here is a blast from the past when Teriz said Demon hunters wont ever come to wow
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...a-class-in-WoW

    the truth is Blizzard could come up with any class they wanted. I would not be surprised if we get dark rangers or something else after shadow lands

  9. #409
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Blizzard has shown these double standards all the time.
    You're the one showing the double standard, not Blizzard.

    Alchemists are no different here. It's a profession, and not a class.
    And the profession has nothing to do with the RTS hero.


    Abilities don't define anything except gameplay. Abilities can be taken away from a class at any given time, so your argument would be a class' definition gets removed every time Blizzard does ability pruning or a revamp.

    Is the Warlock anything less than a Warlock because it had Metamorphosis give to them and taken away? It's always been a Warlock, regardless of whether it had Metamorphosis or not.
    Metamorphosis is not a Warlock ability, it's a Demon Hunter ability. In fact, when it was in the Warlock class, pretty much everyone said it was a DH ability stuck in the Warlock class. When Demon Hunters entered the game, Warlocks lost Metamorphosis, because you have no Demon Hunter without Metamorphosis.

    In short, you chose a very bad example.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2022-01-20 at 11:40 PM.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And the profession has nothing to do with the RTS hero.
    Really? Alchemist are Alchemist and in wow its a profession, and not a class.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Metamorphosis is not a Warlock ability, it's a Demon Hunter ability. In fact, when it was in the Warlock class, pretty much everyone said it was a DH ability stuck in the Warlock class. You chose a very bad example.
    and you said based off of that DH could never be added to the game

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...a-class-in-WoW

    And how did that go?

  11. #411
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because you need to use classic WoW (pre-MoP)
    Lol. Those are not monks and you know it. The name has multiple meanings. That would be like me using https://tbc.wowhead.com/npc=13601/ti...es;mode:normal or https://tbc.wowhead.com/npc=19754/de...erer#abilities to show how a Tinker is the same as an engineer. Or this one, https://tbc.wowhead.com/npc=677/vent...erer#abilities, to show how they are just mages.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Lol. Those are not monks and you know it. The name has multiple meanings. That would be like me using https://tbc.wowhead.com/npc=13601/ti...es;mode:normal or https://tbc.wowhead.com/npc=19754/de...erer#abilities to show how a Tinker is the same as an engineer. Or this one, https://tbc.wowhead.com/npc=677/vent...erer#abilities, to show how they are just mages.
    Now he is gonna say those are not Tinkers because they don't have a mech suit or pocket factory. Funny because over and over again Tinker is the same as an engineer.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You're the one showing the double standard, not Blizzard.
    Not at all. I didn't say we couldn't have a Tech-based class with Tech-based abilities.

    I said the Tinker title is already synonymous with Engineer in the game, by Blizzard's own choice and design.

    And the profession has nothing to do with the RTS hero.
    We're talking about Tinkers in WoW, not RTS heroes.

    Metamorphosis is not a Warlock ability, it's a Demon Hunter ability. In fact, when it was in the Warlock class, pretty much everyone said it was a DH ability stuck in the Warlock class. You chose a very bad example.
    Yet your argument is that a Warlock would be a Demon Hunter because it would have been defined by having Metamorphosis. This was an argument you had time and time again to dismiss the Demon Hunter becoming a class.

    Datguy81 even links the thread you implied this at

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post20016910

    Are you saying that theoretically DH would use int gear because demonology warlocks use int gear?


    Yes. We've been discussing how that is possible for a few pages now.

    The argument was that if Demon Hunters were going to appear in the game, its more likely to be coming from the Warlock class instead of an entirely new class.

    Illidan was a magic user before he became a Demon Hunter. Just saying.


    So honestly, you're just spinning yourself in circles trying to find other ways of justifying how a class is defined by its abilities, even though Blizzard has had zero accountability towards defining any class through any individual or collection of abilities. Class identity exists well beyond its gameplay.

    I'm honestly not quite sure why you still hold on to patterns which have time and time again failed you.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-01-20 at 11:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  14. #414
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Metamorphosis is not a Warlock ability, it's a Demon Hunter ability. In fact, when it was in the Warlock class, pretty much everyone said it was a DH ability stuck in the Warlock class. When Demon Hunters entered the game, Warlocks lost Metamorphosis, because you have no Demon Hunter without Metamorphosis. In short, you chose a very bad example.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Kanrethad_Ebonlocke

    Nah you just don't know the lore. It was used by Warlocks and taught to other Warlocks. It is a perfect example that is actually backed up by lore instead of your head canon.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #415
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by datguy81 View Post
    Really? Alchemist are Alchemist and in wow its a profession, and not a class.
    Then where's the rideable Ogre? Where's Healing Spray, Acid Bomb, Chemical Rage, and Transmute?

    FYI: WoW's professions are based on the WC3 item system. WoW's classes are based on the RTS heroes. Which is why if you go through WC3's items, you can find the origin of every original profession. It is also why WoW's classes are littered with abilities and concepts from the Hero units.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    Have you seen the lore in the game? It's a mess and it's not exactly a holy scripture that's blaphemous to change.

    Also your example literally says engineers create items for tinkerers, it doesn't say tinkerers use them exclusviely. Engineers can create items for Priests in game...

    You can easily expand on the concept.
    If Blizzard wants to change their lore, then they can absolutely do that. But until they change the lore, we can't just imply anything can be canon.

    Just because Blizzard has the ability to change Illidan into a Priest at any given moment doesn't mean we should be addressing Illidan as a Priest as a part of lore discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  17. #417
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Lol. Those are not monks and you know it. The name has multiple meanings.
    Yeah, that's the point.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    Have you seen the lore in the game? It's a mess and it's not exactly a holy scripture that's blaphemous to change.

    Also your example literally says engineers create items for tinkerers, it doesn't say tinkerers use them exclusviely. Engineers can create items for Priests in game...

    You can easily expand on the concept.
    If Blizzard wants to change their lore, then they can absolutely do that. But until they change the lore, we can't just imply anything can be canon.

    Just because Blizzard has the ability to change Illidan into a Priest at any given moment doesn't mean we should be addressing Illidan as a Priest as a part of lore discussion.

    You're asking who calls a Tinker an Engineer, and the answer is Blizzard themselves, since they have used it synonymously in context to the Engineering profession and those who use it. You asked says who, and I say says Blizzard. This has nothing to do with future possibilities or denying a future Tech-based class, this has to do with answering your question that implied this was not already a standing part of lore in the game.

    You can point out the lore being a mess, but you can't dismiss canon for not being canon just because it happens to be inconvenient to your argument. Tinker is a name that is already synonymous with Engineers, and Blizzard would have to change that themselves. And so far, we have no indication that they care to. Same as them reclassifying Anduin to become a Paladin when he's wearing heavy armor and using 2H swords, or again into a 'Death Knight' when he gets corrupted by Zovaal. Blizzard has to make the initiative to reclassify Anduin as being anything other than a Priest before we collectively attribute a new class title to him. As far as lore goes, Anduin is undeniably still classified as a Priest, one who is not restricted by gameplay limitations of any Player Class.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-01-20 at 11:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #419
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This thread needs to settle down, and let's drop the rolling back-and-forth about existing or non-existing Tinker abilities and focus instead on the OP's actual question on what could come *after* a theoretical Tinker class.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That is an assumption. There's also a good likelihood that those abilities will simply be moved into the Hunter class. Wailing Arrow for example is already listed as a Hunter ability;

    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=355589/wailing-arrow



    The Dark Ranger hood can only be obtained by Hunters. The Shaman can get it via transmog, but if you don't have a Hunter, you're not getting the hood.

    Are you not also making assumptions? We have no way of knowing whether or not these abilities will be moved to hunters. It is classified as a hunter ability because Dark Rangers do not exist in a playable state yet. You cannot very well add a category for a class that does not yet exist as playable. The category these spells are put in can easily change. Metamorphosis was once a warlock spell it was moved to Demon Hunters. Death Coil was also a warlock spell and it was moved to Death Knights.

    Quote Originally Posted by datguy81 View Post
    Yea here is a blast from the past when Teriz said Demon hunters wont ever come to wow
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...a-class-in-WoW

    the truth is Blizzard could come up with any class they wanted. I would not be surprised if we get dark rangers or something else after shadow lands
    Oh I see. I would suggest that he not eat crows or any other corvid. But I agree, Blizz can add whatever class they wish.

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