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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There needs to be a roll back to content being done for the sake of it being fun, not just as a means to an end to get you to your shiny epics. That's a part of the problem for why Class design is so homogenized and inflexible today. It's all interconnected.
    But that is an entirely subjective thing. You say there needs to be a roll back but rewards have always driven content. It is the entire model of WoW since the start and the entire reason why the tier system exists. What you want is something that the consumer needs to decide. Are they doing the content for fun, like they used to, or are they doing it just for the reward/progression?

    It is also silly to put it on class design since back in the day some classes were not playable or even taken on raids. For example any debuffs or dots couldn't be used beyond a certain point gimping classes. It is also odd that you say the class design being so homogenized and inflexible is the problem when your last post you stated you think every tank should have the same abilities so one isn't superior over the other.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is also silly to put it on class design since back in the day some classes were not playable or even taken on raids. For example any debuffs or dots couldn't be used beyond a certain point gimping classes. It is also odd that you say the class design being so homogenized and inflexible is the problem when your last post you stated you think every tank should have the same abilities so one isn't superior over the other.
    It comes down to the content itself.

    Baseline abilities between tanks isn't a problem if the content maintains that this is how tanking should be played. The flavour comes from the other things tanks can provide to the raid, through utility and flavour. That's more or less how it already works.

    DPS are the opposite, where none of the gameplay is really baseline, while the idea of 'every Damage Dealer has a rotation that works to provide X amount of DPS' is. And I don't think the game should be built around encounters having to be built around any DPS threshold, nor any Rotation meeting that threshold. I personally think it should be more flexible, so that we can edge towards Vanilla style 'soft roles' that can favour a Damage Dealer who may have less DPS, but provides more utility overall.

    Like honestly, does every Damage Dealer have to be ranked on a DPS meter to decide whether they are most effective or not? Why can't we have certain classes simply be seen as useful or necessary because of its unique mechanics and utility rather than how high its min-maxed DPS potential holds up? All of the content in the game right now is built around those thresholds, and it's why certain classes are considered useless in certain types of content. Like a Resto Shaman trying to progress in Mythic Plus will find it much harder at some point than simply re-rolling to another Healer class and having a much easier time, just because the balance and the content is not in their favour at this moment in time. Well, why do we have content that is even built to have classes pitted against each other in optimal performance? And why spend so much time trying to balance these classes each time only to add in new features that break that balance every expansion and start the cycle over again?

    I personally think it'd be better if progression wasn't built around having to constantly push thresholds, and constantly hinge on min-maxing and "Class of the Month" fads. And there are many other games that take a much more relaxed approach to progression content that is not simply gated to 'the class comps that are best optimized' at the moment.

    Mythic Plus certainly has its advantages, and Blizzard has done well to maintain this as an end-game progression feature so far, but often times this is pretty much what the entire game boils down to in the end game. Raiding and Mythic Plus (and to an extent PVP) is what all other content in the game is built around.


    I think the game really should be bared down to the simple of goal of 'can you beat the boss with the group that you have', and letting players choose how they want to approach figuring out the solution on their own. Like I look at other games like Monster Hunter, where there's no DPS meter and everyone simply co-operates and takes the time and effort needed to take down a monster any way they choose to, regardless of anyone 'pulling their weight', and I see that being done right. Everyone plays their own way, everyone is clear on the singular goal of taking down the boss and keeping everyone alive while doing so, and the speed or method at which it takes is never really expected to meet any collective standard in the community. Your rewards aren't built around having to take down the boss within X seconds, it's in hunting down a big-ass monster and having fun with the people you're playing with while the 'loot' is just icing on the cake.

    And a part of the problem I have with WoW's equation is that all classes are basically derivatives of each other where you're just there to meet a DPS threshold more than provide any meaningful utility to a fight that few others can provide. And we get jaded over the 'fun' in the game because our own classes are a means to an end, rather than the reason to play the game.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-01-21 at 10:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    To be honest, I think Blizzard just needs to relax their PVE system to not be so numbers-centric, and just design encounters to be fun and achievable by anyone. The whole DPS meters thing is really a product of Elitist Jerks being hired to work on the game and keeping it the way it is.

    Non-PVP talents should exist to provide flavour and fun. That's about it. These systems should exist to provide fun choices and flavour, over choosing the best build that maximizes your efficiency.

    Vanilla WoW is somewhat of a better standard for this since even though there was min-maxing, the content was somewhat flexible enough to get around having to stick to any one build. You can make due with a sub-standard build given that the rest of your composition had what they need to make up for it. Like a Healer Druid that didn't take Innervate could exist as long as mana management was good enough in the group.

    The game has focused too much on the stats, and having everyone meet certain standards in order to beat the boss effectively. It should really be in the hands of skillfully managing the mechanics within a fight more than any stats on gear or effective build for a class. The game needlessly focuses on having to balance classes and stats and providing rotations, when really every Tank can be given the same 'Active Mitigate button' and 'Oh shit button' and the rest can come from being a Paladin or a Druid or a Death Knight with all your supporting abilities providing flavour. The game should never reach a point where anyone would play a Guardian Druid specifically because they have access to X talents that make them much more effective at Y content than a Paladin or DK. Sadly, that is kinda how WoW is balanced today.
    I think it is a better approach then having most of the playerbase being the same class because nothing is balanced.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    I think it is a better approach then having most of the playerbase being the same class because nothing is balanced.
    There are other games that have a much more flexible design that doesn't have most of the playerbase just defaulting to the same optimal class. Guild Wars 2 for example has plenty of variety, and a very much 'play as you want' design philosophy behind it.

    Another is Monster Hunter. Even if there are certain weapon types (basically your 'Class') that perform better than others, people don't just all default to that one weapon type. There is a variety of options because each offers unique utility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There are other games that have a much more flexible design that doesn't have most of the playerbase just defaulting to the same optimal class. Guild Wars 2 for example has plenty of variety, and a very much 'play as you want' design philosophy behind it.

    Another is Monster Hunter. Even if there are certain weapon types (basically your 'Class') that perform better than others, people don't just all default to that one weapon type. There is a variety of options because each offers unique utility.
    I haven't play monster hunter but guild wars 2 is a drastically different style of game. They are both rpgs but its a game built without even the trinity.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    I haven't play monster hunter but guild wars 2 is a drastically different style of game. They are both rpgs but its a game built without even the trinity.
    Holy Trinity isn't an end-all be-all reason to maintain DPS thresholds.

    The reason to maintain any threshold is because the content is deliberately built around maintaining 'progression content' as the end-game.

    What should be promoted is how classes interact with each other and how their compositions co-exist in a large group environment, with encounters that are designed around maximizing the utility being provided. That's how games like Guild Wars 2 generally approach its content. Now, it doesn't have a holy trinity system, but it doesn't mean it couldn't be applied. GW2 just happens to be more flexible. Vanilla WoW had that level of flexibility, though its content was also limited in terms of design. Almost too flexible, since certain dungeons you didn't even need a healer or a proper tank to go through. But that's generally how I think the game should approach classes, moreso than today where every spec is measured up against each other and classes are just an extension of 'specs', rather than people simply playing what they want regardless of optimal performance being standardized 'as the game intends you to play'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Holy Trinity isn't an end-all be-all reason to maintain DPS thresholds.

    The reason to maintain any threshold is because the content is deliberately built around maintaining 'progression content' as the end-game.

    What should be promoted is how classes interact with each other and how their compositions co-exist in a large group environment, with encounters that are designed around maximizing the utility being provided. That's how games like Guild Wars 2 generally approach its content. Now, it doesn't have a holy trinity system, but it doesn't mean it couldn't be applied. GW2 just happens to be more flexible. Vanilla WoW had that level of flexibility, though its content was also limited in terms of design. Almost too flexible, since certain dungeons you didn't even need a healer or a proper tank to go through. But that's generally how I think the game should approach classes, moreso than today where every spec is measured up against each other and classes are just an extension of 'specs', rather than people simply playing what they want regardless of optimal performance being standardized 'as the game intends you to play'.
    That is how wow approaches it and is at least from my reasoning why it has been so successful. Guild wars 2 is a drastically different game. I wouldn't say easier but that is mostly because it feels like comparing apples to oranges with how combat actively plays out. I don't think we can go back to the "do whatever you want mentality"

    Even when classic came back it somehow turned into more of a min maxing buff needing hellhole that was worse then most mythic raid guilds on live.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    That is how wow approaches it and is at least from my reasoning why it has been so successful.
    Sure, we can point to that being successful. But only for those who like to play it that way.

    The majority of casuals aren't particularly playing the game for that same content, and the 'success' of the game is just as much based on them sticking around despite the game revolving around end-game which they barely partake in.

    It's kinda like pointing out raids in general. Yes, they are important to WoW. Yes, WoW does them successfully. But are raids really the reason why WoW has continued to be successful over this many years? Not really. It's a big reason why many people are compelled to play, but not a reason why the game is overall successful. Generally speaking, even now, there are more players who play WoW and do not raid than there are who do. So when it comes to talking about how the game's class features and everything that revolves around balance having been filtered through the top-end content, then the 'way things are' aren't really the only way to approach it. Raids don't have to revolve so deeply around DPS thresholds as it currently does.

    If we want to change it, then we need to address how the top-end content is being approached. And if there's an expectation that things shouldn't change because they've always been like this, then we're just perpetuating the same problems that lead to the same stagnation we've been facing for years.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-01-21 at 11:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

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