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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That was a very bad argument, because I'm gonna tell you: yes: arena ALSO has the problem of extremist metas; obviously: battlegrounds are a way more complete gametype for a game of 12 classes and 36 (?) specs; it's even more easily proven there because the smaller the arena: the more ludicrous it becomes: e.g. 3 v 3 or 2 v 2 is usually devastated without healing (or whatever metas they use now (I don't pvp anymore)).
    Read my argument again. I SAID that arenas have the same problem. The point you missed was that arena is still around 15 years later and very popular despite this. Your argument that "balance is harder at small group levels" does not at all give any weight to your following "...and therefore these small sizes should be abolished".

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by paxen View Post
    Read my argument again. I SAID that arenas have the same problem. The point you missed was that arena is still around 15 years later and very popular despite this. Your argument that "balance is harder at small group levels" does not at all give any weight to your following "...and therefore these small sizes should be abolished".
    You are responding to an imaginary person. I never said to be abolished; keep the 5mans and the 2v2 arenas; they are not terrible and people like them.

    I said it's overrated when someone said it's the best thing ever added to the game; even 20man has the issue but less so; readd 10man inbetween.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Self Inflicted Wounds View Post
    Then kick that player and report, or start your own group using the LFG tool/guild.
    Sorry, but you can't suggest that people should take responsibility for their in-game experience in their own hands!
    It is the responsibility and duty of other players to play like I WANT and to invite ME when I WANT.
    And I can play just like I WANT and all other players should accept and encourage me in how I PLAY.

  4. #324
    If Blizzard made having alts alot easier at max level, I would do m+ alot more. As healer and tank.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You are responding to an imaginary person. I never said to be abolished; keep the 5mans and the 2v2 arenas; they are not terrible and people like them.

    I said it's overrated when someone said it's the best thing ever added to the game; even 20man has the issue but less so; readd 10man inbetween.
    And you still fail to understand. 3v3 arena and M+ is extremely popular as endgame content. Your argument that they shouldn't be because of spec balance is irrelevant. They are popular, they are not overrated and they deserve to be a part of the top endgame content.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    It was the best addition this game ever had. It literally revived World of Warcraft.
    This. I don't even know how that was a question. Could it be better/improved? Sure. Mistake? Not in this universe.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by paxen View Post
    as endgame content. Your argument that they shouldn't be
    Did you read what you quoted? I don't want any of those gametypes removed from end-game. I said it's overrated to be called the best feature in the game and I'd like more gametypes inbetween even if everything is flawed in some factors (even 20man).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  8. #328
    Pandaren Monk Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    4: I personally don't enjoy doing the same 8 dungeons on repeat forever. More variety like we saw with legion timewalking does a lot to prevent it from getting stale.
    Oh man if you think running 8 dungeons on repeat forever is bad... what if you had to run 3 dungeons on repeat forever? Because that was Cata's end-game dungeons by their last content patch. End Time, Well of Eternity and Hour of Twilight. That's the alternative that we've seen so far in WoW.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I would argue that the reasons for the high participation rate has little to do with how fun or good it is. I could make the same argument for the % of max players who have done torghast as a reason torghast is good, but the reality is that torghast is just a necessity to player effectiveness. M+ isn't really necessary, but if you don't do it, then you are severely gimping yourself in terms of character power growth.
    That's not a good argument because back in Legion, the way you got legendaries (prior to the vendor) was to go do all the emissaries, do world bosses, do all the dungeons at M0 and clear out each raid. All in the pursuit of a legendary which if you didn't get lucky the first time around was painful. In fact it was so time consuming that players came to the conclusion that it was faster to level a second toon of the same class/spec and get the first legion legendary that it was to attempt to do all the grind to trigger the BLP to give you another legendary.

    How was that more fun? Sure it was time consuming, but fun? I'd say not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    3: Keystones are awful. Just let people pick a difficulty level at the start of whatever dungeon they want to do. For that matter, weekly affixes could also be made optional for greater rewards. Think the pact of punishment from Hades, super hardcore people could do a dungeon with 6 affixes if they wanted.
    Having free reign over picking dungeons + levels without penalty just means that players would experience degenerate gameplay. Like in Hades, the first "free" room that gave you a power, if it gave you a shitty one, you might as well end that run because it would be faster and more efficient to
    restart than to waste time attempting the run. Have a bad wipe at a boss? Restart the key. Have a bad wipe at trash? Restart the key. Have a bad first pull? Restart the key.

    Additionally having free pick over dungeons can also be negative. We saw this behavior back in early Legion when Maw of Souls was the top dungeon in M+ not because it was good but because it was short. Granted the reason players ran MoS constantly back in early Legion was for the AP grind but that could easily happen in SL for different reasons. X dungeon is the shortest so suddenly it becomes popular for valor grinding, for quickly maxing out your GV to get 10 M+ done as quickly as possible for as many mains and alts, etc etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO M+ TO ENTER A RAID. THIS IS BS. LET ME GET PRE-RAID BIS AND STOP FORCING ME INTO M+ (because I personally don't like it)
    You should reconsider who you raid with then. Sure some groups may require M+ gearing to enter raid, but not all. And if you don't want that kind of pressure then find other groups of players to play with.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    Are we really expected to play M+ for 2 years until the next expansion releases new dungeons?
    Consider the alternative (which I previously mentioned) as the dungeon progression back in Cata. Sure you got "new" dungeons but because the loot table in the newer dungeons were better (and since you don't have M+ to boost the old dungeons' loot) all you got were smaller set of dungeons to play in.

    To reiterate, is it better to have 8~9 dungeons that you keep playing or have 2~3 new dungeons added per content patch but then be restricted to just those few dungeons (because they came out later and had better loot than the earlier dungeons)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    3. People in World First races getting geared to the teeth before starting the race. This is BS.
    Competitive players will optimize as much as they can. It's one of the reasons why Master Loot is gone (for loot funneling), granted it didn't really work.

    Honestly for R2WF, Blizzard really should just stick that progression on Tournament servers. This way those ultra competitive players can have a "level playing field" without the craziness of all the optimization they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    4. Boosting. It's just too good to turn down. Blizz could fix this if they added a "mercenary" feature to the game that would allow someone to pay gold to players for their services, but yeah....
    So wait you want pay to win? Because that seems like pay 2 win...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    5. Elitism / people dropping groups on your f'ing +20 key because John Doe didn't prepot the first pull. Like it feels pretty bad man.
    Don't PuG a +20?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    Why does it have to be competitive? This kind of thinking is why we can't have nice things anymore because it will inevitably get ruined by people being competitive crying about balance, loot and things being unfair.

    A dungeon crawling mode is nice for the people who like the RPG part of MMORPG.
    At the expense of the MMO part of the MMORPG. But again, there's no limit to dungeon crawling in a M0 so technically you already have it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    That's actually half true
    Wod had 8 dungeons
    Legion 14
    BFA 12
    SL 8 ( +1 including tazavesh )

    You can see a trend when rushed expansion get less dungeon than polished ones
    Whoa... misleading the public a bit here aren't we?

    Legion's 14 is technically only 13 since Return to Karazhan is technically just 1 dungeon that got split into 2 for M+
    BFA's 12 is also technically 11 for the same reason as Operation: Mechagon was split into 2.
    SL's 8 + 1 (because of Tazavesh) should really be 10 since Tazavesh should be split into 2 by the time we get to 9.2 if you wanted to be consistent with the previous two examples.

    So to be truthful the table should have looked like this:

    WoD - 8 dungeons
    Legion - 13 dungeons
    BFA - 11 dungeons
    SL - 9 dungeons

    Now if you wanted to count M+ dungeons:

    WoD - 0 M+ dungeons (Had 8 CM dungeons though a precursor to M+)
    Legion - 13 M+ dungeons (Violet Hold was never a keystone dungeon)
    BFA - 12 M+ dungeons
    SL - 10 M+ dungeons
    ---
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  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    You should reconsider who you raid with then. Sure some groups may require M+ gearing to enter raid, but not all. And if you don't want that kind of pressure then find other groups of players to play with.
    Nope. I should be able to raid with high-end guilds without "no-lifing" the game. When you get older and have a family you don't have time to do this, and when the only reason you play the game is to raid HARD content (Mythic), and you have the skill to do it, you shouldn't have to endlessly grind dungeons to have a chance to get loot. It's degenerate. I just want to raid Mythic, why the heck do I have to grind the same boring dungeon over and over again?


    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Consider the alternative (which I previously mentioned) as the dungeon progression back in Cata. Sure you got "new" dungeons but because the loot table in the newer dungeons were better (and since you don't have M+ to boost the old dungeons' loot) all you got were smaller set of dungeons to play in.

    To reiterate, is it better to have 8~9 dungeons that you keep playing or have 2~3 new dungeons added per content patch but then be restricted to just those few dungeons (because they came out later and had better loot than the earlier dungeons)?
    Uhm.. Cataclysm dungeons on release were freaking amazing. They were hard, really cool thematically, and prepped players for raiding. When I finished getting my loot, I didn't have to run them all over again each patch, and I could just focus on getting my tier and raid gear. Way more alt friendly. This was a way better dudgeon design approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Competitive players will optimize as much as they can. It's one of the reasons why Master Loot is gone (for loot funneling), granted it didn't really work.
    Master loot needs to come back, getting rid of it made more degenerate gameplay with having to run more splits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Honestly for R2WF, Blizzard really should just stick that progression on Tournament servers. This way those ultra competitive players can have a "level playing field" without the craziness of all the optimization they do.
    No. Just get rid of the infinite dungeons grinds / randomness. Then everyone is on an equal playing field with the R2WF crew without "no-lifing" the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    So wait you want pay to win? Because that seems like pay 2 win...
    It's hard not to when it makes the infinite farm so much simpler. If this is going to stick around, at least make a feature in the game that plays on the fantasy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Don't PuG a +20?
    I should be able to, isn't that the purpose of LFG?

  10. #330
    Bloodsail Admiral m4xc4v413r4's Avatar
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    Literally the best feature added to the game since release and you're asking if it was a bad idea... If there ever was a time to facepalm, this is the one.

  11. #331
    Yes, remove the timer and let tanks be tanks and not kite and DPS be dps and healers be healers again. I love the idea of progressive tiered 5mans just hate the timer. Also make loot drop off boses again.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by FragmentedFaith View Post

    More proof of what mythic plus has done to this game. Once upon a time boosters had the decency not to shout it
    What's the problem with players selling their services in PvE endgame? I am against RMT and more should be done to curb it, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with players selling their time and services.

  13. #333
    you people defending M+ and writing long replies should get some girlfriends, bunch of fucking losers

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by GucciWarr View Post
    you people defending M+ and writing long replies should get some girlfriends, bunch of fucking losers
    A girlfriend to boost M+ with. Girls love healing.

  15. #335
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by odamienskii View Post
    No ego dude honestly, i just wanted to play with players of my level, thats all, i didnt want to be stuck with players that have no idea when to use a defensive. some of them tried bless them, but at the wrong times, as a healer you see everything, you see when the party misses an interupt, you see when a player has a debuff and doesnt use a defensive, you see when someone is constantly standing in stuff and believe me at the higher end of the m+ ladder when EVERYONE in the party is judging your dps its downright enfuriating when you cover someones lack of skill the entire run only for them to turn around and mention your damage. you respond "if you wasnt such a retard standing in everything rawdog eating everything i would have more gcds free to do dps" its a party of casuals so they gang up together call you noob and kick.

    If a mage uses iceblock on bleed last boss forget the dungeons name its 1gcd for him, if he doesnt, the healer has to repeatidly heal him instead of casting dps spells. these casuals dont understand that, thats why segregation should exist. because those players shouldnt have the right to be in my party when they are that bad.

    They watch top level streams and notice the healer doing 4/5k dps, what they dont notice is if you watch the healthbars they barely move and overall the healer is doing less hps than dps because there is nothing to heal, why??? because the other 4 players in the party know the importance of being "healable" at that level. majority of players before i quit were not healable at all, not only were they set up to rawdog eat everything to the face but they also were standing in everything on top of that cluelessness. why the hell should i be forced to play with these kind of players? because its there game too???? well guess what, it WAS my game too, but sod that, they are welcome to it.

    Which is what the majority of "i used to have loads of really good players on my bnet" have said/done. only difference is i voice my opinion while they just left without saying anything. truth hurts, good players dont want to play with casuals, call it ego if you want, i call it not wanting to have your time wasted by crap you learnt 7 years ago, the content is hard enough when you get to a certain level even ifthe players are good, add a bad player? keys dead before it begins.... but thats ok!!! its just a social game!!! at least you can have fun with "friends"

    Friends you will never even share a coffee with who live 600 miles away. cant have good players running around showing the bad players that they are bad can we, would upset all the friends.

    Heres an idea... SEPERATE THEM SO BOTH TYPES OF PLAYERS CAN ENJOY THE GAME, or dont, just mash them all together and watch as all the better players leave because they cant take having there time wasted anymore.
    I see no lie here. I also played as a healer for years and it's a nightmare in pugs, so I started group leading only as well, .io saved my soul.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  16. #336
    Brewmaster Pakheth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndra View Post
    i wish that mythic plus wasnt based solely around being timed. i dont wish that the timed concept was removed necessarily, but that the option for untimed exist as well. the timed aspect just ruins M+ for me. so, i dont do them.
    Same. I hate the stress that the timer creates. I don't play the game to be stressed. Not even most raid bosses give me the same stress because it comes in bite sized portions of a few minutes per try. But M+ comes with ruined ruined keys and pugs who don't have the patience for returning players like myself.
    I did a few in Legion when it was new and it was okay with the right people. Tried again in BfA and noped the fuck out.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Pakheth View Post
    Same. I hate the stress that the timer creates. I don't play the game to be stressed. Not even most raid bosses give me the same stress because it comes in bite sized portions of a few minutes per try. But M+ comes with ruined ruined keys and pugs who don't have the patience for returning players like myself.
    I did a few in Legion when it was new and it was okay with the right people. Tried again in BfA and noped the fuck out.
    You can't do not timed on mythic+. People mainly run it to rank so in order to rank: they would do extremely slow runs if it's not timed; in practical terms: right now the world record may be something like level 28 which is already hard without counting the timer; with the timer removed: people would be trying level 30 or 32 for hours upon hours with wiping and it will be never ending and extremely hard core on top.

    The only reason it is timed is that it has progressively higher levels; you need that removed for it to be not timed; I'd suggest to petition for 10man hard mode in its own instances or for 5man to stop having levels.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2022-01-24 at 05:45 PM.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  18. #338
    M+ is easily one of the best additions to the game. This game struggles with keeping content relevant long term, but at least now we have relevant 5 man dungeons that persist throughout an expansion.

    Is it without faults? Of course not. Do the players make it less fun than it could be? Absolutely, but that's more of a community issue than with the feature itself. WoW devs like to experiment but always neglect to consider the social impact of certain design. I have trouble expressing my thoughts on this because it takes many forms, and part of it is the community being more toxic than it needs to be, but it is possible to design things in a way to avoid or discourage players having reasons to act shitty towards one another. WoW doesn't do that, it usually implements systems and lets the players "sort it out" entirely on their own. But that usually leads to hyper-optimization, expecting the maximum rewards every time, and considering yourself "punished" by bad players if it's not undeniably perfect in their eyes.

    For example, late legion I'm farming mythic antorus each week, full mythic tier, we sell the mythic achievement/mount as a guild to others. I had slowed down on keystones as the expansion neared its end, and I hadn't run the newest dungeon at higher key levels out of some laziness.

    So there I am, full mythic tier, +15s on every dungeon but this single final one, and I struggled getting invited to a single group. Despite my ilvl being higher than a fully m+ titanforged runner could acquire, despite clearing harder content, having better gear possible than a non mythic raider, full orange parse on all mythic antorus and having played the game at that same level since server firsting Sunwell in TBC, I could not get invited to a group. Because it had all been boiled down to a single number, and based on this number, m+ onlies would mistake me as being incapable of clearing the content since it was lower than theirs.

    I don't necessarily blame them for wanting to take the path of least resistance, they were only optimizing the reward structure Blizzard set up and left to the player's own devices. At the time, it was kind of an "okay, lol" moment. But objectively speaking, there's no reason for them to act any different. Simple things such as, an internal rating system with a bit more nuance that people would have more to consider than m+ score. A reward incentive for a group with a player that has not completed the content yet, or on that specific difficulty. Anything. Very minor, very here-and-there changes could improve upon the social aspect of the content, but like this post has been trying to convey, Blizzard neglects that entirely. And it's not difficult to add very small things to encourage community or discourage toxicity, but rarely do they bother.

    Perhaps if they weren't wasting so much development effort with borrowed power to then scrap it later, they'd have the bandwidth to implement more meaningful changes. Alas

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    Mythic+ was the only reason I even played through legion, bfa and played the start of shadowlands. Raiding sucks
    Longer duration boss fights, lots of novel mechanics, and large groups > repetitive 15 minute clears with repeat mechanics throughout every dungeon you do. YMMV.

    M+ was fine, conceptually, as a game mode. It being the BEST way to gear was fucking stupid when it first released. Infinitely repeatable + huge chance at forging + less headache due to smaller group + way shorter clear times essentially invalidated raiding from a rewards standpoint.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by GucciWarr View Post
    you people defending M+ and writing long replies should get some girlfriends, bunch of fucking losers
    What about those that "combat" M+ and write long replies what should they get?

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