Was Mythic + a bad idea ?

[Alroxas]

There was a bit of ore, not enough to do anything big with. Same with the herbs.

Well that really depends... for an army of alts... or just logging in each day to spend 15 minutes collecting the stuff, it does add up over time. And that's the heart of the issue: The garrison provided so much at such a low investment of time, folks would just log in to do their "daily chores" instead of engaging with other players in content.

And that's a benefit of M+, bringing some group content that players can engage in even during periods of expansion lull.

[Aedruid]

Every Mythic raid in the last few years has been cleared on the first or second week. What the average player does is irrelevant, it is proven that good players can clear the hardest content without overgearing it.

They overgear it because of M+. If M+ didn't exist raids would not be cleared the first week.

[shise]

It´s a good idea with the wrong approach.

Should removed timed runs.
Should give loot quality inferior to raids.
No rating... this is not arena where rating means something of skill. Rating on M+ rewards people who have a lot of time or friends in the game.

[Advent]

They overgear it because of M+. If M+ didn't exist raids would not be cleared the first week.

Pretty sure world first raid groups started clearing raids week 1 or 2 because of split runs, which started in Wrath/Cata.

[Tyris Flare]

They overgear it because of M+. If M+ didn't exist raids would not be cleared the first week.

That is an amazingly poor understanding of what world first guilds actually do, which is a million raid splits to funnel gear to specific people.

[LTN]

That is an amazingly poor understanding of what world first guilds actually do, which is a million raid splits to funnel gear to specific people.

To be fair unless you are in the top 100 guilds of wow it isn't exactly like it is advertised. If you are playing at even the get CE before next patch hits you are more likely reviewing your own performance rather then maximizing all potential drops.

[epigramx]

there was literally very little need to step outside the garrison. And since garrisons were instanced to the player, it becomes an isolating experience.

Don't generalize. I like that sort of thing because I don't feel an automatic need to have other humans near me whever I am alone.

The opposite was true for a lot of us; I hated the spam of "we're all together in our zones" of Legion; it keeps going on in SL.

[cparle87]

Well that really depends... for an army of alts... or just logging in each day to spend 15 minutes collecting the stuff, it does add up over time. And that's the heart of the issue: The garrison provided so much at such a low investment of time, folks would just log in to do their "daily chores" instead of engaging with other players in content.

And that's a benefit of M+, bringing some group content that players can engage in even during periods of expansion lull.

But that's the player's choice. If a player decides to make an army of alts so it takes over an hour each day to keep their garrison cycling up to farm the easy gold it's not right for them to turn around and say "Damnit Blizzard I spent so much time doing my garrison stuff today there's no time for me to go do anything else!" That's not fair to pin that on Blizzard for the player's playstyle decisions.

[Zodiark]

M+ on the other hand adds replayability to the same dungeons for 2 years.

To some yes I'm sure. But if you really think about what I said in my initial post you might see that part of my issue is the overall toxicity of the M+ system. That and it promotes a type of gamer that I believe is detrimental to WoW. To do good M+ runs you need a good team. Which requires commitment. I think it should have been a system where it was designed so that you can just drop in anytime and depending on your skill level you can progress. Not because you couldn't be bothered to fish for a decent team on social media or forums, or commit to a schedule, etc.

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Agreed -- like I said, I think that's why we saw so much extra "casual" content in Legion.



I think this is the key take away a lot of people miss when providing criticism of WoW. Many players think back to the days of yore when WoW was at its peak and just assume that if that singular version of the game was available again that the playerbase they remember would materialize from thin air. Some even think that had Blizzard never changed anything post-WotLK that the game would have simply kept adding new players and we'd have 120 million concurrent subscribers at the moment. This complete lack of critical thinking skills is what makes it extraordinarily difficult to have reasonable discussions with people about how to fix the game. ("Just make game WotLK again" is not a reasonable expectation.)

A unique series of events took place back in the day to make WoW what it was during the days of WOTLK. Much of this was the time period. Also because WC3 was such as hit. WoTLK was basically finishing the story that players left off in Frozen throne. It's unrealisic to think lightning would strike that many times in a row.

However I've said elsewhere that perhaps had the Blizzard developers taken some different paths with regards to their design decisions, things would be in a better state today. For instance, building inwards rather than outwards. More specifically, taking pre-existing zones and areas and building upon them, adding new explorable areas, dungeons, new wings to older raids, etc. Working on the phasing system to actually show progress within old zones, so later on after the expansion you can see that farm you helped to save during your first foray into the wetlands, etc.

[Athulua]

This feature single-handedly made 5-man dungeons relevant for the entire expansion.
Before Mythic+ you would run dunegons for 2 weeks after launch and then never again.
In Mists of Pandaria the best gear you could get from heroic 5-mans were 463 ilvl blues. And this never changed over the course of the game. Fresh alts didn't even needed to run them after patch 5.2, as you could simply buy crafted blue gear on AH which had similar item level and allowed you to queue LFR. In patch 5.4 timeless isle was introduced, where you could farm a full set of 496 ilvl gear in a couple of hours. That's 33 ilvl above dungeons.

Dungeons are significant resource drain in development. They're mini raids basically, they need to design the entire area, enemies, bosses, loot. Yet they were hardly ever played after the pre-raid launch phase is over.

Mythic+ makes sure dungeons are played for the entire expansion. Patches simply update the item levels and add some new affixes to the pool.
What does suck is current reward structure, not the system itself.
Weekly vault / chest etc needs to go away. It's a bullshit system. It's pure RNG and it shoves all players into this M+ mosh pit against their will. You may not like doing M+ that much but the system forces you to do so if you want to progress your character at a competitive rate.

Instead of this stupid weekly vault system we need M+ drops to simply scale higher. Make them scale up to current weekly vault reward. You want to play and gear up through M+? Sure, get a group of buds and run 18s, 19s, 20s where you can still find useful loot. Not farm ten 15s with randoms, wasting 10+ hours for a chance at an upgrade. A chance, once per week.

So imo - M+ itself is excellent. Vault is bad.

[Itisamuh]

I have no interest in it personally due to the timed run aspect and my general disinterest in organized group stuff, but it is hard to call something clearly successful a bad idea. I think the people acting like it somehow saved or revived the game are being overdramatic in fanboying over it, since it never actually died in the first place, but having more things to do at end game is always a good thing. I just wish they would stop trying to force the timed run crap into other content just because of mythic mentality.

[Lathspell]

To some yes I'm sure. But if you really think about what I said in my initial post you might see that part of my issue is the overall toxicity of the M+ system. That and it promotes a type of gamer that I believe is detrimental to WoW. To do good M+ runs you need a good team. Which requires commitment. I think it should have been a system where it was designed so that you can just drop in anytime and depending on your skill level you can progress. Not because you couldn't be bothered to fish for a decent team on social media or forums, or commit to a schedule, etc.

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You can totally just pug m+ whenever and progress. Just do your own key if you are not getting invites. I pugged to KSM this season on my paladin (as holy/prot most of the time) and the biggest obstacle was just starting to push up a bit. I was afraid of doing 12+ for a long time for some reason. But they were easy once I just tried.

[Aedruid]

That is an amazingly poor understanding of what world first guilds actually do, which is a million raid splits to funnel gear to specific people.

Mythic+ and raiding drop equivalent loot unless it's mythic... which they are clearing week 1 for R2WF... Splits occur when the raid actually releases, which they already have a full set of M+ gear (hence heroic being easier because they also overgear it due to M+).

[crazyswayzee]

As a pvper it was one of the worst ideas because since we have m+ the gearing System is fucked up and we have like 9 different gear scores per season which means we have a range in gs of like 30 points PER SEASON. In earlier addons we had smaller power progression because we only had normal and heroic and honor and conquest gear, therefore the playing field was more even.

If you break it down m+ means running the same dungeons of an expansion for the whole of an Expansion which is pretty damn boring design

[facefist]

Doing m+ in Legion was best time I've had in the game for a long long time. It's also what makes the start of a new expansion really interesting for me.

So to me It's one of the best additions to the game ever.

[Tyris Flare]

Mythic+ and raiding drop equivalent loot unless it's mythic... which they are clearing week 1 for R2WF... Splits occur when the raid actually releases, which they already have a full set of M+ gear (hence heroic being easier because they also overgear it due to M+).

They don't drop equivalent loot anymore. Also the heroic raid releases in the first week typically, you are confusing that with mythic.

[Aedruid]

They don't drop equivalent loot anymore. Also the heroic raid releases in the first week typically, you are confusing that with mythic.

Sorry this confuses me. I thought heroic and M+ dropped = ilvl loot at +15. Can you clarify a little bit (sorry)

[Tyris Flare]

M+ drops 3 levels lower than heroic raiding in Shadowlands.

And normal/heroic raid launch at the same time now, only mythic raid is delayed a week.

[Alroxas]

M+ drops 3 levels lower than heroic raiding in Shadowlands.

And normal/heroic raid launch at the same time now, only mythic raid is delayed a week.

Also add to it that the M+ rewards are also capped the first week when normal/heroic raid launches, so you can't use it to "overgear" the raid until after mythic raid is opened (and the cap is removed).

[Relapses]

Also add to it that the M+ rewards are also capped the first week when normal/heroic raid launches, so you can't use it to "overgear" the raid until after mythic raid is opened (and the cap is removed).

Even further, the currency you can use to upgrade gear from M+ is capped weekly as well. :-)