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  1. #341
    Perhaps instead of doing something you dont want to do for a slight edge if there is one would be to ya know just say no. I myself dont raid and i literally pug my own KSM ( this season was elemental / Resto shaman first season it was all 3 flavors of Druid and next will be Monk ) was it expected of me to have shards? no. It did not stop me from getting invites at all. Tell the people you raid with that you dont have time or a want to do it, its that simple.

    I do not know why people always assume the absolute worst all the time.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    The elephant in the room was WoD. The era when people DID get done, only raidlogged cause there was nothing more, and came onto these forums in a flaming rage about how this expansion was the worst thing ever, a stigma that unfairly remains to this day. Blizzard is so terrified of people being able to say they're done that they're going to keep adding these systems. In Blizzard's eyes they see it as the hardcores can grind as much as they want for a small increase over everyone else and the middlecore have something to do once the meat and potatoes are done. But sadly the playerbase has just seen it as something they "forced" to do or they'll "fall behind" even if they're not hardcore or even middlecore.
    I don't think WoD is remembered poorly because of the fact that you could "finish" the game. They dislike it because one of its content patches added nothing of value to the game (a fact that Blizzard has themselves acknowledged as a folly). I consider WoD my favorite expansion because of the raiding but even I wouldn't blame most people for feeling there wasn't much to do. I don't know if all of the expansion's issues can be explained away by the lack of engaging casual content but I will concede that the biggest difference from WoD to Legion is that fact that Blizzard did give casual players a lot more to play with via World Quests and Titanforging. (The latter being acknowledged as a mistake in its own right.)

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    The elephant in the room was WoD. The era when people DID get done, only raidlogged cause there was nothing more, and came onto these forums in a flaming rage about how this expansion was the worst thing ever, a stigma that unfairly remains to this day.
    This ignores the many, MANY other things that were wrong with WoD. Adding the mobile game element was probably the biggest issue with that expansion, and its something they've repeated in every expac since, proving that they do not in fact make changes based on what the playerbase does or does not like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I don't think WoD is remembered poorly because of the fact that you could "finish" the game. They dislike it because one of its content patches added nothing of value to the game (a fact that Blizzard has themselves acknowledged as a folly).
    I've taken a look at the so-called selfie patch. And with the hotfixes, tuning, quests, and other non-raid content it did add I'd put it ahead of the weather patch from vanilla and the voip patch from BC. Their only problem was marketting it as a X.1(2?) instead of a X.1.5 or whatever. People misread it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    This ignores the many, MANY other things that were wrong with WoD. Adding the mobile game element was probably the biggest issue with that expansion, and its something they've repeated in every expac since, proving that they do not in fact make changes based on what the playerbase does or does not like.
    Couple problem heres. Nobody can speak for the player base. If every forum posters on this place agreed with you that would be a thousandth of a percent of the playerbase. Do not speak for anyone but yourself, or you're running into the argumentum ad populum fallacy. Adding a knockoff auto chess to the game is not some horrible, terrible thing the playerbase has turned into a boogeyman.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    WoD. The era when people DID get done, only raidlogged cause there was nothing more, and came onto these forums in a flaming rage about how this expansion was the worst thing ever, a stigma that unfairly remains to this day.
    I think that argument was a fallacy from the start; they didn't understand fully what bothered them; it was not that they raid logged because raiders love that sort of thing in reality.

    I think the expansion had an extremist implementation of the followers mini-game; it has a huge list of followers; they doubled down later with the shipyard and it was shittier.

    The irony is that I loved those subsystems; I hated the excessive mundane grinding of the world in Legion; it was especially bad that the legendaries dropped randomly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    the mobile game element was probably the biggest issue with that expansion
    That's exactly the problem but most people could not gather their thoughts to understand it; the followers system was extremistically implemented; I personally liked it but for most people the extremely long list of followers and the importance of the rewards was too much to handle and they made it considerably worse with the shipyard which was even less fun to play.

    It was absolutely not that they raid logged; most raiders love that sort of thing; it is VERY destructive to the game to say that raid logging is bad in WoD because that's definitely not what people were bothered about.

    The further proof is that you could see it in the haters arguments too; most people did not say "I raid log and I hate it"; they clearly said "I am trapped in the garrison".
    Last edited by epigramx; 2022-01-25 at 10:12 AM.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That's exactly the problem but most people could not gather their thoughts to understand it; the followers system was extremistically implemented; I personally liked it but for most people the extremely long list of followers and the importance of the rewards was too much to handle and they made it considerably worse with the shipyard which was even less fun to play.
    I would've preferred if the inn did something else and instead you got to use all the followers you got from the storylines. I knew these guys, I did quests for them, I had a connection to them. It made me sad I had to bench them.

    The whole "trapped in the garrison" thing never made sense to me, either. There was plenty to do in WoD if you didn't write off entire segments of the game as "not content." Most folks who talked about being trapped in the garrison you'd ask them. Do you pet battle? No. Do you archaeology? No. Do you do apexis dailies to trigger invasions? No. Do you kill the rares that drop pets/mounts/toys? No. That's how it goes. You list all the things the game did have, they say no they don't consider that content. Then they complain about nothing to do.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    The whole "trapped in the garrison" thing never made sense to me, either. There was plenty to do in WoD if you didn't write off entire segments of the game as "not content." Most folks who talked about being trapped in the garrison you'd ask them. Do you pet battle? No. Do you archaeology? No. Do you do apexis dailies to trigger invasions? No. Do you kill the rares that drop pets/mounts/toys? No. That's how it goes. You list all the things the game did have, they say no they don't consider that content. Then they complain about nothing to do.
    I think it's just that the majority of players couldn't think that independently, they were used to a game where they followed whatever everyone is doing in the middle of orgrimmar or in their guild or whatever else public space in-game.

    I can't express enough how much worse I found Legion's excessiveness with world grinding of mundane tasks ..and it appears to be the norm now.

  8. #348
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I don't think WoD is remembered poorly because of the fact that you could "finish" the game. They dislike it because one of its content patches added nothing of value to the game (a fact that Blizzard has themselves acknowledged as a folly). I consider WoD my favorite expansion because of the raiding but even I wouldn't blame most people for feeling there wasn't much to do. I don't know if all of the expansion's issues can be explained away by the lack of engaging casual content but I will concede that the biggest difference from WoD to Legion is that fact that Blizzard did give casual players a lot more to play with via World Quests and Titanforging. (The latter being acknowledged as a mistake in its own right.)
    I also think the PVP in Wod was good. The xpac at least from my perspective was rough only because of the really slow and rough content patches. No lie, I remember a time when the game didn't change from the release until the raid with blackhand.. like it felt like literally the biggest let down in the history of the game for me.. Maybe it was 10 months but it felt extremely slow. Cat or Cataclysm was my worst xpac only because WLK was that good - Cat just felt like it ONLY had good PVE and everything else in the game was horrible

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    Also on topic: M+ was the best thing that WoW had ever added BESIDES xmog imo.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    Imagine casuals did not have a weekly chest to try for that actually took time, effort and even some skill, they would literally un-sub in 2 days rather than 1 week as there is nothing to go for. Blizz loses even more than your view on current setup.




    The only people who complain hard about .io are those who are very bad or very lazy.

    If you actually had empathy, you would know group leaders require .io to keep their sanity, instead of being forced to recruit randoms and suffer while other plebians just press "sign up" and someone else does the work for them in both group management and the actual dungeon. You see, bad or lazy players don't care about .io and it's use as a recruiting tool because they literally never group lead, nor do they care about .io of others in their immediate group because they are poor themselves and just pray they get carried by anybody. Therefore they hate .io as it is a 'blocker' to being easily invited (and assisted with little given in return), not the useful tool that it actually is.

    If actual skill level or even effort level of the average player wasn't 1 step above nothing, .io would not be necessary. Instead you a minefield and .io is the mine sweeper.

    You mention similarity to the old predecessor Gearscore. You know that came about when every bad player in existence was trying to join pugs for ICC and people got sick of 2k dps andys who wasted everybody's time. Gearscore was crude, but its existence was warranted.
    Hmm. I don't even know where to begin. Let me just say this. First and foremost WOW is supposed to be a game of fun. FUN...

    For many it's fun running fast and hard. Destroying everything in their wake by crushing the numbers. For others it's fun by just enjoying the scenery and pressing buttons to somehow eventually get the monster down. FUN, is a matter of opinion.

    So for those that aren't interested in crushing things as fast as possible, it's a waste of their time to clear through the dungeon or raid faster than they can enjoy taking it all in. For others it's a waste of their time to go through slowly.

    Who's right?

    In the end I think it's more a matter of transparency and openness about your expectations and abilities. That said as a society of gamers we need to first and foremost learn to respect each other, and our different interpretations of the word, FUN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    So what you're saying is that very difficult bosses require optimisation. And that's somehow a bad thing?

    Every competitive game worth playing has a meta.
    They really don't though. Sorry but since the dawn of gaming, under geared players have been taking down bosses as a sort of right of passage. I myself consider it a hallmark of my abilities to be able to take down hard mobs with little to no prep. By creatively utilizing my abilities.

    Sometimes this isn't possible and you need a little adjustment to your gear, yes. But for the most part it's common knowledge that WoW players and MMO' players in general tend to OVER gear for fights for fear of loosing and wasting that precious time, when if fact they spent quite a bit of time optimizing in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    How often have you done Tazavesh so far?
    Actually I haven't. I'm sort of protesting WoW at the moment. I basically quit for almost a year after SL came out. Once I hit 60 and realized there was going to be mountains of work to do and chores to complete I stopped playing. I did some FFXIV, and GW2, and a dozen other games. Just for fun. I built my small business up so I'm doing pretty well for myself in real life. I have more free time than ever and the last thing I want to do is be stuck behind a game for more time than I spend working. That said I've been playing games for 35 years now. I will always enjoy them. But now it's in small bite sized chunks.

    Maybe I'll decide to run through some content and sometime I'm sure I'll see Tazavesh. But I'll do it on my own terms.

  10. #350
    M+ being an endless challenge mode is great in theory, but the timer makes me avoid it like the plague.
    I don't want a clock ticking while I play an RPG, MMO or otherwise.
    I'll take a water level in any game any day over a timed segment in an RPG.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark View Post


    They really don't though. Sorry but since the dawn of gaming, under geared players have been taking down bosses as a sort of right of passage. I myself consider it a hallmark of my abilities to be able to take down hard mobs with little to no prep. By creatively utilizing my abilities.

    Sometimes this isn't possible and you need a little adjustment to your gear, yes. But for the most part it's common knowledge that WoW players and MMO' players in general tend to OVER gear for fights for fear of loosing and wasting that precious time, when if fact they spent quite a bit of time optimizing in the first place.
    Every Mythic raid in the last few years has been cleared on the first or second week. What the average player does is irrelevant, it is proven that good players can clear the hardest content without overgearing it.

  12. #352
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark View Post
    Hmm. I don't even know where to begin. Let me just say this. First and foremost WOW is supposed to be a game of fun. FUN...

    For many it's fun running fast and hard. Destroying everything in their wake by crushing the numbers. For others it's fun by just enjoying the scenery and pressing buttons to somehow eventually get the monster down. FUN, is a matter of opinion.

    So for those that aren't interested in crushing things as fast as possible, it's a waste of their time to clear through the dungeon or raid faster than they can enjoy taking it all in. For others it's a waste of their time to go through slowly.

    Who's right?

    In the end I think it's more a matter of transparency and openness about your expectations and abilities. That said as a society of gamers we need to first and foremost learn to respect each other, and our different interpretations of the word, FUN.
    Well the problem is that is how the game 'is' (speed + strength difficulties) so the rating system was based around it. Many people don't find a 30 min dungeon taking 60-120 min fun, or failing constantly because of someone else fun, or having to be a teacher/carrier all the time, it's a drain.

    There is an separate argument to be made of removing the timer, but .IO would still exist in that universe anyway -- there was no timers for raids, but people still ask for achievements/ilvl/xyZ.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  13. #353
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    The whole "trapped in the garrison" thing never made sense to me, either.
    Let's expand on that. The issue with "trapped in the garrison" was that the garrison was too good. You wanted some ore? There's a mine shaft. You wanted some herbs to make pots? You have a garden. You want access to an AH? There's a collection quest but eventually you can have one. How about some fishing? Sure, there's a hut around the corner.

    By providing all these "comforts", there was literally very little need to step outside the garrison. And since garrisons were instanced to the player, it becomes an isolating experience. Players would login on a regular basis, do the garrison chores, then log out.

    In comparison, take any other hub from other expansions: Oribos and Korthia in SL, Dalaran in Legion/Wrath of Lich King, Boralus or Dazar'alor in BFA. Those hubs felt better because any number of players would be traveling through them. While player to player interaction isn't necessarily higher, the mere presence of players makes the space feel less isolating.
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  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark View Post
    I'm sure there have been other threads adressing this issue but I wanted to pose a question.

    Was Mythic + a game system mistake ?

    My reasoning behind this is simple. As WoW has grown older and the gaming climate has been changed with many outside systems like Discord, etc, taking over player to player communication, the game has become less social over time.

    The mythic plus system basically rewards groups that stay together longer to get as many runs done as possible to maximize rewards, etc.

    However, to stay together longer you have to have a group comprised of members who know their role and are willing to stay and work with others for an extended time period.

    That being said WoW has grown to encourage faster, low-commitment type players who just want to get in and get the run over with and get out as fast as possible. Back in the days of Wrath it wasn't uncommon for a good group of even random players to run several Heroics together. Nowadays that's an anomaly.

    So looking back was the Mythic + system, which only really caters to the minority of players, and is also the focus of many toxic behaviors an ill conceived plan?
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  15. #355
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    There is an separate argument to be made of removing the timer, but .IO would still exist in that universe anyway -- there was no timers for raids, but people still ask for achievements/ilvl/xyZ.
    Ultimately that just comes down to the simple fact that players want to engage in content with other players who are equally (or better) geared/knowledgeful/skillful in the group content being attempted.

    Few (if any) want to be saddled with less geared, less knowledgeful, and/or less skilled players in group content.
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  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark View Post
    Actually I haven't. I'm sort of protesting WoW at the moment. I basically quit for almost a year after SL came out.
    You really should do it. Tazavesh is everything you want, a giant place to be discovered with a lot of hidden secrets and sights you can only get when you take your time to actually explore the place. Even a pet where you have to activate a vendor and get him stuff from outside the dungeon.

    I did it three times with my friends so far. Once going in pretty much blind first week, 2 hours to clear the place. Then to get everyone the hardmode mount. But here's the thing... I never had the desire to go in yet another time, not with my main not with any Alt. Exploration dungeons lose their novelty quickly. They are great, don't get me wrong I totally enjoyed it, but it's a one time thing.

    M+ on the other hand adds replayability to the same dungeons for 2 years.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I don't think WoD is remembered poorly because of the fact that you could "finish" the game. They dislike it because one of its content patches added nothing of value to the game (a fact that Blizzard has themselves acknowledged as a folly). I consider WoD my favorite expansion because of the raiding but even I wouldn't blame most people for feeling there wasn't much to do. I don't know if all of the expansion's issues can be explained away by the lack of engaging casual content but I will concede that the biggest difference from WoD to Legion is that fact that Blizzard did give casual players a lot more to play with via World Quests and Titanforging. (The latter being acknowledged as a mistake in its own right.)
    WoD got hammered with the “nothing to do” within a month of its release, which was WAY before the content drought was realized.

    People hit 100 and realized there was nothing to do for players outside of raid day to work on. And most people don’t raid.

    Ironically, that isn’t even much different than TBC classic right now, but the playerbase changes with time.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    WoD got hammered with the “nothing to do” within a month of its release, which was WAY before the content drought was realized.

    People hit 100 and realized there was nothing to do for players outside of raid day to work on. And most people don’t raid.
    Agreed -- like I said, I think that's why we saw so much extra "casual" content in Legion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Ironically, that isn’t even much different than TBC classic right now, but the playerbase changes with time.
    I think this is the key take away a lot of people miss when providing criticism of WoW. Many players think back to the days of yore when WoW was at its peak and just assume that if that singular version of the game was available again that the playerbase they remember would materialize from thin air. Some even think that had Blizzard never changed anything post-WotLK that the game would have simply kept adding new players and we'd have 120 million concurrent subscribers at the moment. This complete lack of critical thinking skills is what makes it extraordinarily difficult to have reasonable discussions with people about how to fix the game. ("Just make game WotLK again" is not a reasonable expectation.)
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-01-26 at 07:13 PM.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Let's expand on that. The issue with "trapped in the garrison" was that the garrison was too good. You wanted some ore? There's a mine shaft. You wanted some herbs to make pots? You have a garden. You want access to an AH? There's a collection quest but eventually you can have one. How about some fishing? Sure, there's a hut around the corner.

    By providing all these "comforts", there was literally very little need to step outside the garrison. And since garrisons were instanced to the player, it becomes an isolating experience. Players would login on a regular basis, do the garrison chores, then log out.

    In comparison, take any other hub from other expansions: Oribos and Korthia in SL, Dalaran in Legion/Wrath of Lich King, Boralus or Dazar'alor in BFA. Those hubs felt better because any number of players would be traveling through them. While player to player interaction isn't necessarily higher, the mere presence of players makes the space feel less isolating.
    There was a bit of ore, not enough to do anything big with. Same with the herbs. Warspear had an auction house and it was just a portal away. The fishing hut had everything, not good when you're farming a certain fish.

    Garrisons weren't really the hub, though. That was Warspear again. With the trainers, portals, auction house, bank, pvp vendors, etc. I'm of the mind people fixated and continue to fixate on the garrison too much and forget it wasn't the be-all end-all of WoD.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    There was a bit of ore, not enough to do anything big with.
    It wasn't profession bound. If you do it on a couple characters you'd have enough for everything. And maxing as many characters as you could stomach to build garrisons for was highly encouraged, since gold missions were absolutely OP

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