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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It's adorable to see you still riding that "WoW is P2W" horse in every thread you can manage to bring it up. It isn't, and just because that is a particularly popular position held by the people who inhabit online forums doesn't make it true. It will never be true because WoW isn't P2W.
    ?
    How did I know I'd catch a reply from you. I'm not "riding" anything except facts and the truth? Stop being offended over a video game

    I can spend $60 on wow tokens and gain access to literally any challenge this game has to offer via carry and boost lol. In what simp universe is that not p2w?

    I play wow. I raid. I enjoy the game. None of that doesn't mean this game ain't p2w though sorry. Maybe Microsoft will take it to the next level so even you can't continue to deny reality :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    To be fair there is nothing micro about wow's transactions.
    lol fair point.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but that only pertains to RMT. From the article Square released when they prohibited the advertisement of boosts --

    It is not a violation to ask for help or to offer a reward when asking for help, as in the following examples that do not violate our policy. However, in the examples that do violate the policy, the person offering help is advertising their services, which is prohibited.

    Examples of violations:
    - Selling [duty] clear for 1 million gil.
    - Selling [duty] clear and/or offering the associated rewards from [content]. Join for more info/details.

    Examples of non-violation:
    - I'm new, can anyone help me clear [duty]?
    - Help me clear [duty] and I'll pay you 1 million gil!
    - I'd like to get some items from [duty]. will pay 1 million gil if I can get it.

    If I'm misunderstanding something, please let me know.
    You are not misunderstanding anything.
    It is forbidden to advertise boosting, because that causes mental anguish, just look at WoW.
    But you are allowed to "ask for help" and "compensate for helping".
    So in the end the result is the same: Plenty of boosting, but it for some very dense persons it seems that boosting is gone in FFXIV.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    You are not misunderstanding anything.
    It is forbidden to advertise boosting, because that causes mental anguish, just look at WoW.
    But you are allowed to "ask for help" and "compensate for helping".
    So in the end the result is the same: Plenty of boosting, but it for some very dense persons it seems that boosting is gone in FFXIV.

    Oh, there's still boosting. But before you could see pretty often in the duty finder, which was the most visible tool. Right now? the european DCs have not a single advert. It still exists, that will never go away, but it's clearly much diminished from before because, whenever you add extra steps, some fall on each of those.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    I can spend $60 on wow tokens and gain access to literally any challenge this game has to offer via carry and boost lol. In what simp universe is that not p2w?
    I play wow. I raid. I enjoy the game. None of that doesn't mean this game ain't p2w though sorry. Maybe Microsoft will take it to the next level so even you can't continue to deny reality :P[COLOR="#417394"][SIZE=1]
    WoW isn't P2W.
    You can in no way pay the way to become the best/first.
    Those that boost people through mythic raids have completed the raid themselves without buying anything.
    Those that boost people through M+ have completed the same keys a long time ago.

    People that buy a boost in WoW are paying to be mediocre. And that makes people that buy boosts in WoW more pathetic and stupid than people that pay their way through true P2W games.

    You can't pay your way in WoW to be at the top. You can pay your way to complete content that far better people than you have completed themselves without any help..
    The only thing in WoW that remotely could be considered P2W are BOEs, because they could give an advantage in the race to world 1st.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Kragan View Post
    Oh, there's still boosting. But before you could see pretty often in the duty finder, which was the most visible tool. Right now? the european DCs have not a single advert. It still exists, that will never go away, but it's clearly much diminished from before because, whenever you add extra steps, some fall on each of those.
    Yes, it is less visible in-game, and that make some people think that it has become less prevalent...
    You or I have no idea if this has made boosting less prevalent, you or I have no idea if this has shifted some of the boosting for in-game currency over to RMT, brokered through external sites.

  5. #125
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    What power can you buy off of the store?

    If you mean the token which gives you in-game currency wouldn't that mean that FF is also selling power on their store since the story skip comes with items which can be vendored for in-game currency?
    The hypocrisy here is that Blizzard is terrible for providing the token. But hardly anyone mentions that nearly every major MMO in existence has ways to buy gold or gems or game store currencies for cash and ways to convert in-game gold to MTX currencies. It's not a Blizzard thing any longer. It's just about all games in the genre and has been for a long time. If anything, Blizzard was late to the party. Pretty much the exact same system existed in EVE online for years and Blizzard even mentioned when they started the token system that it was modeled on EVE's system.

    Add to that the many people who want to have a say in how people spend their money while relatively giving guilds or individual selling carries/assistance a pass for doing so makes hypocritical nonsense of most of the verbiage about how terrible Blizzard is. The fact is Blizzard has resisted selling power directly in the form of gear through their store. You can reach the very highest reaches of the game without resorting to anything other than patience and skill. That's less true of of others that directly provide power to their players without the intervention of middlemen.

    To that extent, WoW is reasonably mild about microtransactions with the exception of services which I've always thought overpriced. But even with those, you can level up new characters and get to what you want without spending a dime for services or boosts or anything else.

    EDIT: I'll also add that most F2P/B2P MMO's have a subscription/patron option where you pay some amount per month for additional access to stuff including often enough some MTX to spend in the game store. Note, that signing up for something like this does NOT make everything in the game available for free. So it's pretty much the same all around; just different variations of how it works.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-01-19 at 08:53 PM.
    "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game" — Soren Johnson (Civilization III/IV designer)

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The hypocrisy here is that Blizzard is terrible for providing the token. But hardly anyone mentions that nearly every major MMO in existence has ways to buy gold or gems or game store currencies for cash and ways to convert in-game gold to MTX currencies. It's not a Blizzard thing any longer. It's just about all games in the genre and has been for a long time. If anything, Blizzard was late to the party. Pretty much the exact same system existed in EVE online for years and Blizzard even mentioned when they started the token system that it was modeled on EVE's system.

    Add to that the many people who want to have a say in how people spend their money and relatively give the guilds selling carries a pass for doing so makes most of the verbiage about how terrible Blizzard is hypocritical nonsense. The fact is Blizzard has resisted selling power directly in the form of gear through their store. You can reach the very highest reaches of the game without resorting to anything other than patience and skill. That's less true of of others that directly provide power to their players without the intervention of middlemen.

    To that extent, WoW is reasonably mild about microtransactions with the exception of services which I've always thought overpriced. But even with those, you can level up new characters and get to what you want without spending a dime for services.
    Right but it seems silly to try and pretend those services don't exist as some here are. It should also be noted that these services are still rare to be seen in subscription games.

    My biggest annoyance is these systems are often used to monetize problems rather then fix them. Take server transfers, there isn't a reason beyond them wanting to profit over their broken realm system rather then actually trying to fix it. It is the main reason why mythic raiding is restricted as out of any playerbase they are the most likely to move to another server.

    It is anti consumer and it baffles me to see any defense of it. It comes off a lot like shakespear. Murders, pardoning murders.

  7. #127
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    My biggest annoyance is these systems are often used to monetize problems rather then fix them. Take server transfers, there isn't a reason beyond them wanting to profit over their broken realm system rather then actually trying to fix it. It is the main reason why mythic raiding is restricted as out of any playerbase they are the most likely to move to another server.
    But mythic raiding is essentially nothing compared to all the other stuff they've opened up to cross-realm and, correct me if I'm wrong, even mythic raid pick-up-groups are cross-realm after the raid has been out for a bit and has been cleared by enough groups; all stuff that if they were that predatory about realm transfers they would never have implemented. It's just a sort of hollow argument.
    "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game" — Soren Johnson (Civilization III/IV designer)

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    Right but it seems silly to try and pretend those services don't exist as some here are. It should also be noted that these services are still rare to be seen in subscription games.

    My biggest annoyance is these systems are often used to monetize problems rather then fix them. Take server transfers, there isn't a reason beyond them wanting to profit over their broken realm system rather then actually trying to fix it. It is the main reason why mythic raiding is restricted as out of any playerbase they are the most likely to move to another server.

    It is anti consumer and it baffles me to see any defense of it. It comes off a lot like shakespear. Murders, pardoning murders.
    Server transfers have a monetary cost to prevent players (and botters) from abusing the system.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Huzzaa View Post
    It's been basically pay-to-win for years now...
    So, what have they sold which has made killing a mythic boss easier? I don’t see anything at all.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    But mythic raiding is essentially nothing compared to all the other stuff they've opened up to cross-realm and, correct me if I'm wrong, even mythic raid pick-up-groups are cross-realm after the raid has been out for a bit and has been cleared by enough groups; all stuff that if they were that predatory about realm transfers they would never have implemented. It's just a sort of hollow argument.
    You are mostly incorrect boarding on entirely but it is something you don't really feel unless you raid mythic. By the time cross realm opens up the raid is effectively over. There is still time to play of course but realistically if you are not on a raid realm you are effectively cut off from playing the game for those three months.

    There also doesn't exist any reason to not open up cross realm mythic beyond getting that extra source of revenue. I would argue that it opens up only slightly to allow for trails to prepare to pay for a transfer for the following tier. At least that is how it usually plays out in guilds.

    If you can come up with a reason otherwise I would be willing to hear you out but "server community" is a joke at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Server transfers have a monetary cost to prevent players (and botters) from abusing the system.
    I can't see how... it hasn't stopped botters and sharding destroys most advantages playing on other servers offers no?

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The hypocrisy here is that Blizzard is terrible for providing the token. But hardly anyone mentions that nearly every major MMO in existence has ways to buy gold or gems or game store currencies for cash and ways to convert in-game gold to MTX currencies. It's not a Blizzard thing any longer. It's just about all games in the genre and has been for a long time. If anything, Blizzard was late to the party. Pretty much the exact same system existed in EVE online for years and Blizzard even mentioned when they started the token system that it was modeled on EVE's system.

    Add to that the many people who want to have a say in how people spend their money while relatively giving guilds or individual selling carries/assistance a pass for doing so makes hypocritical nonsense of most of the verbiage about how terrible Blizzard is. The fact is Blizzard has resisted selling power directly in the form of gear through their store. You can reach the very highest reaches of the game without resorting to anything other than patience and skill. That's less true of of others that directly provide power to their players without the intervention of middlemen.

    To that extent, WoW is reasonably mild about microtransactions with the exception of services which I've always thought overpriced. But even with those, you can level up new characters and get to what you want without spending a dime for services or boosts or anything else.

    EDIT: I'll also add that most F2P/B2P MMO's have a subscription/patron option where you pay some amount per month for additional access to stuff including often enough some MTX to spend in the game store. Note, that signing up for something like this does NOT make everything in the game available for free. So it's pretty much the same all around; just different variations of how it works.
    I've always felt that the token is the lesser of two evils scenario. If it wasn't the token, it'd be gold selling spam. I don't like either but it's unlikely Blizzard would ever have the necessary staffing to fully eliminate gold selling from the game. I'd surmise the real reason it isn't addressed more directly is that both gold selling and boosting (even accounting for RMT) represents such an infinitesimal impact to Blizzard's bottom line that it doesn't warrant fixing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    I can't see how... it hasn't stopped botters and sharding destroys most advantages playing on other servers offers no?
    Dead servers still have economies and opening the floodgates to people abusing said economies would be a surefire way to cause even more inflation. For the record, I don't necessarily agree with the cost of server transfers myself and have repeatedly asked that Blizzard do something like give players a free character service with every {x} months of subscription.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-01-19 at 09:11 PM.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I've always felt that the token is the less of two evils scenario. If it wasn't the token, it'd be gold selling spam. I don't like either but it's unlikely Blizzard would ever have the necessary staffing to fully eliminate gold selling from the game. I'd surmise the real reason it isn't addressed more directly is that both gold selling and boosting (even accounting for RMT) represents such an infinitesimal impact to Blizzard's bottom line that it doesn't warrant fixing.

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    Dead servers still have economies and opening the floodgates to people abusing said economies would be a surefire way to cause even more inflation. For the record, I don't necessarily agree with the cost of server transfers myself and have repeatedly asked that Blizzard do something like give players a free character service with every {x} months of subscription.
    Linking the auction houses would make sense. Granted I don't really know if it is possible either.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    At some point you have to stop right?

    You are reaching so absurdly far that you are comparing spending thousands of dollars and risking being banned to paying 25$ and hopping into any spammed carry party in wow.

    I have seen people admit to faults in religions they have followed their entire lives faster then you are to admitting wow has gone p2w
    its a variation in definition, I've talked about this a lot in a previous thread so I probably won't post past this post.

    P2W requires some kind of power directly in the store that is only acquirable by using the store. Gold is not a finite resource in wow and you can farm tons of it very fast. The gold acquired through coins is also not magically generated by blizzard it is from another player so its not adding resources to the market.

    I have never bought a wow token and can not get any power from the store so how can I call the game pay to win? There are no items on the store, there are no buffs in the store that can grant me power. And no finite resources that can be used to purchase power.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Galluccio View Post
    So, what have they sold which has made killing a mythic boss easier? I don’t see anything at all.
    tokens, which can be exchanged for kills :^)

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    Linking the auction houses would make sense. Granted I don't really know if it is possible either.
    Unlikely to happen since there's a non-insignificant portion of the playerbase whose main reason for subscribing is roleplaying as an AH baron.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Unlikely to happen since there's a non-insignificant portion of the playerbase whose main reason for subscribing is roleplaying as an AH baron.
    On dead servers with only a few hundred auctions posted at a time?

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    On dead servers with only a few hundred auctions posted at a time?
    It'd be even easier to be an AH baron because one player could effectively control an entire server's economy with enough patience.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post


    Yes, it is less visible in-game, and that make some people think that it has become less prevalent...
    You or I have no idea if this has made boosting less prevalent, you or I have no idea if this has shifted some of the boosting for in-game currency over to RMT, brokered through external sites.
    Well, how about you don't rope others? I for one know it's gotten much less prevalent. From personal experience in my line of work: increasing the difficulty to commit the wrongdoing, and increasing the punishment, coupled with the apllication of said punishment... you dissuade the potential wrongdoers. As i said before, for each step you add to the process, the more people will drop mid way.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Y'all should console (pun not intended....well, maybe a little) yourselves that ATVI was not bought up by EA or TenCent. Or Disney for that matter. There's a lot worse outcomes to imagine than Microsoft (although I find it troubling that MS is buying up so much stuff).
    Just saw article that said Activision first attempted to sell to Facebook. Imagine how horrible that would have been. Probably would have had political ads while sitting in queue for LFR. "You must watch 5 30 second ads to join the raid". If you want to receive loot, you have to share your kill to your grandma and poke her.

    https://www.gamesradar.com/activisio...report-claims/
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2022-01-19 at 10:26 PM.

  20. #140
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akta View Post
    this is delusional at the highest level LOL what you wanna buy shitty boe?
    Ignore these people, they don't understand what Pay to Win is. They have somehow deluded themselves into believing that a boost which explicitly requires other people to have cleared content and at best can get someone to a similar gear level is comparable to ACTUAL Pay to Win games such as Neverwinter where you can literally buy massive advantages over EVERYONE else. At most, WoW is Pay to Catchup.
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