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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Ask 10 people the actual definition of pay-to-win and you can get 10 slightly different answers. It means different things to different people and lines have been drawn.
    This.

    Fine. WoW is pay-to-win. So what?
    and this. What's the point of this argument? Let's say for sake of argument we all unanimously agree that wow is p2w, so what? What now? I for one am not quitting so it makes no difference at all.
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  2. #162
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Well yeah 240 might be stretching it a bit, but I daresay not by much, considering every boss has a decent chance of giving you loot, or multiple pieces even via other raiders trading you other pieces that dropped. But also there are still those BOEs on the AH that could fill in a gap or two if you are still lacking. Hell throw in some m+ 15 carries and you could get pretty close even if the raid didn't go your way too well. Gold takes you very far in this game..

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    This post confuses me greatly. I feel you are misunderstanding on a fundamental level. P2W isn't the player 'creating new game mechanics to win the game' it's using irl money to get a 'fast pass' and ahead of those who otherwise did not spend irl money in the same scenario.

    Think of it like this. P2W is akin to how steroids work in professional sports. They give the user an unfair advantage over the competition. You earlier tried to say that becuase the people carrying you in the raid completed said raid normally means that p2w can't exist. That's like saying that because the people in the race yesterday already finished, my steroids are fair because I'm racing today. It just don't make no sense son.
    I can't help it if you cant juxtapose how this works. At the beginning of an expansion, no one has gear. In order for the items to drop, the content has to be done. Guilds get equipped then begin to sell boe's on the auction house. It's not as if the can be bought immediately at launch. No one is getting an unfair advantage. If anything it's a catchup mechanic. Yes, it seems unfair to a new player or a player without gold. But it's not an advantage because at no point does it provide something that isn't obtainable in game.

    It would be pay to win if and only if: one, it was only accessible with real money, and two, if it provided an advantage over items available in game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Wow has been micro transaction free you say?

    Hahahahahaha sure whatever you say
    That's a fair point. But those have only been for cosmetic items. Nothing compared you what you are talking about as p2w. A monthly subscription isn't considered a microtransaction. And the wow token system isn't pay to win, either.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    This.



    and this. What's the point of this argument? Let's say for sake of argument we all unanimously agree that wow is p2w, so what? What now? I for one am not quitting so it makes no difference at all.
    It comes down to people being more annoyed by people being in denial then any real counter argument. When blizzard told good players that bad players would pay for their subs the mold was set.

    It just seems silly to be worried about microtransactions being increased.

    You can buy power
    Tier sets look worse then cosmetic cash shop sets
    Mounts from CE are all reskins and less detailed then cash shop ones.

    The nightmare they are afraid of happening has already happened and the earth still turns.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    I can't help it if you cant juxtapose how this works. At the beginning of an expansion, no one has gear. In order for the items to drop, the content has to be done. Guilds get equipped then begin to sell boe's on the auction house. It's not as if the can be bought immediately at launch. No one is getting an unfair advantage. If anything it's a catchup mechanic. Yes, it seems unfair to a new player or a player without gold. But it's not an advantage because at no point does it provide something that isn't obtainable in game.

    It would be pay to win if and only if: one, it was only accessible with real money, and two, if it provided an advantage over items available in game.
    Nothing here in this ramble has anything to do with p2w and I feel a bit worse for having read it. idk if you understand what p2w is...

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Nothing here in this ramble has anything to do with p2w and I feel a bit worse for having read it. idk if you understand what p2w is...
    Not even sure why you are quoting that person that is literally making sense.

    Most of you people have no idea what the term P2W is, you just throw it out as an attempt to cover for your lack of skill to do basic content, and you create "win situations" to games that dont exist.

    Pay to win, was the premium ammo being sold in World of Tanks that dealt more damage than the ammo the F2P players had cause its a PvP game and had a win situation.

    Pay to win is the mobile games that have "Tier 5 heroes" with +10% to all stats compared to what F2P players can get by random chance that stops at "Tier 4 heroes" or similar shit and have PvP and win situations.

    Pay to win was Neverwinter Online when it first released that the higher tier enchant drops didnt exist in the loot tables of the dungeons, but they were available in the game, ONLY if you bought the 100% chance to upgrade from the store for real money, or you could wait something like 3 weeks cause thats when they will be enabled, and you would need 2 weeks farming for ONE, out of the 10 needed, or you could spend ..what was it, 110$, or 150$, otherwise to get your enchants before that, even so, its a game where there was no win situation, but since an item existed to provide gear that doesnt exist in game but it gets sold in the store, it can be considered a Pay to Win situation that didnt really affect anyone.


    And thats where @MoanaLisa is right, every person has their own definition, but there is a general definition of P2W, which neither Neverwinter Online and WoW fall into, cause there is no win situation, they give you that itch to call them "P2W!!" but in reality, they arent.

    You guys really need to get this into your thick skulls, your inability to do joke difficulty content to get the gear provided (+15s) and because someone pays gold to get that done, does not magically create a win situation in a game that doesnt exist, so you can feel better about yourself not being able to do said content.

    If P2W existed in WoW, and was related to the token in a shape or form as the game is today, it would be something like Mythic Sylvanas drops an enchant where the player does +10% damage in PvP situations, which have win situations, maybe THEN i can argue that token is a P2W element.

    Thats all the butthurt about the token and nothing else, people should not have what you cant get, because you know your only option to get what you want, is to do the same thing as them cause you guys arent good enough, for multiple reasons whether its because life caught up, or general lack of skill, it does not matter, there must not be a way for others to get what you cant have, thats all it boils down too.

    Capitalism is a terrible thing.
    Last edited by potis; 2022-01-22 at 08:15 PM.

  6. #166
    I see 99% of the people have no clue about microtransactions or what p2w actually is.

    I won't get started with the microtransactions as everyone who will reply about it; will try to make some bs up thaf they know nothing about.

    Instead lets talk about the game being p2w. It is not.

    Buying the token is not p2w
    Paying for a boost is not p2w
    Paying gold for a mythic+ carry is not p2w
    Paying gold for a raid carry is not p2w

    The only way wow would be considered p2w is if the following happened.

    New patch and raid comes out
    You buy with real money all drops from the raid thst get mailed to your toon
    You buy with real money boss kills and get full credit (achievements) as if you did it yourself
    The first person that can buy the service faster than anyond else gets credited for the wf kills.
    You pay real money to instantly have your pvo, mythic+ or any other rating in the top bracket withoit actuallt needing to step foot on the content

    THAT would be p2w. Everthing else is not and you are wrong if you think they are

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by shammypie View Post
    Until now wow has been mostly microtransaction free. Yeah a lot of people buy gold and the occassional mount but that isn't that game breaking just an economy issue. However there has been ample opportunity for micro transactions to be implemented and cut out the middle man of players that make a side hustle with it. Here is what I expect to really see from the buyout

    10 extra loot rolls for 5$
    <Insert farmable resource here> 1$ a stack
    Experience buffs 1$
    etc etc

    Mostly microtransaction free? The WoW token says "Hi".

    Buying gold among other things has really hurt the economy. I'd call that game breaking in many ways since economics in an MMO would and should be a big thing.
    As for the rest...doubtful but I wouldn't say impossible at this point.

    I'm not sure what people are expecting gameplay wise from this Microsoft buyout.
    They didn't buy actiblizz out to make a better game. They did it because they think they can make profits from it and actiblizz is in a bad place right now so selling probably made financial sense to them.

    This way people will think that the company and the game itself has changed and might be willing to buy it in the future.
    Great gameplay is never the goal anymore. This is the 2020's. It's about "player engagement". How long can they keep you online...be it chores or RNG...etc etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    I see 99% of the people have no clue about microtransactions or what p2w actually is.

    I won't get started with the microtransactions as everyone who will reply about it; will try to make some bs up thaf they know nothing about.

    Instead lets talk about the game being p2w. It is not.

    Buying the token is not p2w
    Paying for a boost is not p2w
    Paying gold for a mythic+ carry is not p2w
    Paying gold for a raid carry is not p2w

    The only way wow would be considered p2w is if the following happened.

    New patch and raid comes out
    You buy with real money all drops from the raid thst get mailed to your toon
    You buy with real money boss kills and get full credit (achievements) as if you did it yourself
    The first person that can buy the service faster than anyond else gets credited for the wf kills.
    You pay real money to instantly have your pvo, mythic+ or any other rating in the top bracket withoit actuallt needing to step foot on the content

    THAT would be p2w. Everthing else is not and you are wrong if you think they are
    No. Using real world money to buy in-game gold and then spending that in-game gold that you otherwise would not of had to pay other players to run you through for gear, pvp titles, and achievements is definitely pay to win.

    You get gear from a raid you otherwise would not of been in and you got it by paying to get carried. And you used in-game gold that you wouldn't of had if it weren't for that wow token that you paid REAL money for to get.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    Return?

    its been p2w for years and they are pushing out cosmetic items faster then ever before.
    Its never been p2w.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Its never been p2w.
    Just like there isn't gambling in japan. Instead they play for these metal balls that have no value but then are traded in for prizes from a third party.

  10. #170
    Why are these fucking threads allowed to go on for 10+ pages every time?

    It's completely unfounded speculation presented as some kind of informed opinion, the entire premise is to bait people into arguments, and they are always posted in bad faith.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Xires View Post
    Using real world money to buy in-game gold and then spending that in-game gold that you otherwise would not of had to pay other players to run you through for gear, pvp titles, and achievements is definitely pay to win.
    Just make sure that you include buying flasks, pots and food and everything else other players provide for gold as pay to win too. And make sure your definition goes back to the very first day of wow since you could buy stuff from other players with gold since the beginning.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Huzzaa View Post
    It's been basically pay-to-win for years now...
    Than it has always been pay to win. Carries have been around forever and buying gold has as well, it was just much more risky before.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  13. #173
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    You guys realize this deal with Microsoft means Blizzard is officially no longer a small indie company?

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    >Buying gold, buying several game services, buying mounts, buying pets, buying transmogs, buying digital collector editions
    >WoW mostly microtransaction free

    Hhhmmm...
    compared to other MMO probably

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Huzzaa View Post
    You sure you thought this through?

    You buy the boost with the loot.
    With an ingame currency that I can earn without spending real money.

    I really don't think you guys that screech "WoW is P2W" at the top of your lungs really understand what that mean. Sure, maybe in the unspeakable darkness of the grim future where Gold can only be obtained through the WoW token, you might have a point.

    But so long as I have the option and ability to make in game gold through normal means, you can't really claim WoW is "Pay to Win", especially when that Gold you're exchanging for the WoW token is coming from other players.

    But hey, you guys do you, just pray to god you never actually get any real P2W stuff in WoW, because then you'll be looking at your silly WoW token analogies, and smiling fondly on what you thought was horrible.

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