Seriously - Are People Actually Fine with SL's Vault System?

[Edward Wu]

This is more of a question than a rant at this point, as I'm 9 months separated from the game as of writing this. This is also more in regards to how it pertains to M+ for the most part.

But are people really fine with how it currently is? I know people who exclusively play WoW can lose touch with fundamental design as they are sucked into its specific analytic/statistical design, and as they opt to no longer play other games since WoW demands such a heavy time investment, being what it is. I've seen little to no complaints regarding this, so I'm taking the default assumption that nobody in the WoW community cares or in fact actually likes the current setup.

Specifically, I'm talking about the fact that SL's Vault System massively changed how loot is rewarded in M+ dungeons from BfA to now. We went from a system where you could continuously run M+ dungeons for chance at great loot due to Titanforging and M+ loot being competitive to raid loot, to the current system that we have, where running M+ solely exists to add another slot to your Great Vault for increased loot choice quality.

My main issue with this is that I really like killing monsters and watching them drop quality loot. Currently, this is no longer possible with M+ as the mode does not reward competitive loot, but only serves a function of being an aggregator for your Vault rewards.

I would personally like to go back to enjoying seeing competitive loot drop in the dungeons themselves. Removing or redesigning the Vault System, however you go about it is required.

[Addiena]

What's this vault you speak of ?

Better yet . .what's Mythic+ ?

[Swnem]

I think the vault is fine for raids, but not mythic+.

A raid takes like 2-3 hours to clear. 10 mythic+ are gonna take you north of 6 hours to get. Also, pugging is a nightmare in mythic+ cause one person leaving means a wasted run. A bad run can take upwards of 40m, etc.

So, as far as mythic+ goes, the vault is really not much better than the old weekly chest. Except we lost the bonus roll tokens too.

I do not want titanforges and the sort back. Just an adjustment on the number of mythic+ runs needed to fill the vault. I would go with 1, 2, 4.

[arkanon]

I think the vault is fine for raids, but not mythic+.

A raid takes like 2-3 hours to clear. 10 mythic+ are gonna take you north of 6 hours to get.

I would LOVE to see the breakdown of how you came up with those numbers...

[Mysterymask]

I think the vault is fine for raids, but not mythic+.

A raid takes like 2-3 hours to clear. 10 mythic+ are gonna take you north of 6 hours to get. Also, pugging is a nightmare in mythic+ cause one person leaving means a wasted run. A bad run can take upwards of 40m, etc.

So, as far as mythic+ goes, the vault is really not much better than the old weekly chest. Except we lost the bonus roll tokens too.

I do not want titanforges and the sort back. Just an adjustment on the number of mythic+ runs needed to fill the vault. I would go with 1, 2, 4.

I mean if you pug yeah its a nightmare but by that logic if you have a decent group of friends the M+ would probably take like less than an hour

[Tehalbino]

With current dungeon times m+ vault should be 1/3/5 dungeons required.

+15s are hardly competitive/difficult content.

Loot scaling to dungeon difficulty would be much more welcome, eg. +20 in time rewarding 252 loot is fine, or just adding BoA max conduit upgrade items or something similar.


The current structure is working as intended.

[Swnem]

I mean if you pug yeah its a nightmare but by that logic if you have a decent group of friends the M+ would probably take like less than an hour

Less than an hour for what? 4 x 15's? Maybe for a top team with mythic gear. But, those people care more about pushing, so it doesn't affect them.

Normal people take half an hour to 45m to clear a mythic+. 4 of those is equivalent to the time it takes to clear the raid on farm.

[Sucralose]

It isn't overly offensive... that isn't to say I like it. It just seems so minor compared to everything else.

[arkanon]

Less than an hour for what? 4 x 15's? Maybe for a top team with mythic gear. But, those people care more about pushing, so it doesn't affect them.

Normal people take half an hour to 45m to clear a mythic+. 4 of those is equivalent to the time it takes to clear the raid on farm.

But why is the raid on farm? This isnt an honest comparison. For some reason, the raider finds a group instantly, that group is a farm group that just happens to need some random to join, and its a 2 hour clear of the raid. What if you are kicked from the raid group part way through? What if you have to start from scratch because the group disbands? What happens when the tank leaves after the second boss because it has the trinket he wanted? What happens when the group hits a wall and can only get 4 bosses down before wiping on the 5th for 2 hours?

But for the M+ scenario its a worst case scenario taking 6 (fucking SIX) hours. You are intentionally comparing apples with oranges to fit your narrative.

[Palapop]

I would LOVE to see the breakdown of how you came up with those numbers...

is it really that hard?

1 average pug raid does take 2-4 hrs to complete (depends of leavers/wipes/afkers....)

10 average pug M+ grps takes ~5-6 hrs just to complete dungeons (considering you need ~35 mins to complete 1x +15 key with average 2-2.1k grp)
that is IF you don't waste time in LFD, especially if you are considered non-meta class/spec.




but yeah, overall, I'm HEAVILY AGAINST "vault" rng piece of shit.
Especially since I play raid AND M+ (a little bit above casual lvl since I'm 2.5k on my main) AND PVP. Having to choose just 1 RNG reward out of 3 possible bis items is pain in ass.

Just bring back OLD pvp/pve vendors already!

[Master Guns]

Yes, I do like it. The fact that anyone could have a PROBLEM with it, is beyond me. You don't even have to use it, if you don't want to.

That's one of the things about so many issues WHINED about on this forum, and others. They argue about M+..so don't play it. They argue about raids..so don't raid. They argue about the vault..so don't pick up your items? These are non issues. Genuinely.

Secondly, your statements are blatantly false. Maybe you just run low keys, I truly don't know, nor do I care. But people get upgrades through ACTUALLY running keystones. I run probably 5 a day, I get loot frequently. You also get valor, to upgrade your items based on your IO keystone score. It makes perfect sense. I literally can't think of a better system in practicality.

Also, lets just point out the absurdity and hypocrisy of you even stating your opinion on a game you're, how did you put it, nine months removed from? Get a life, dude. The horse is beaten.

[arkanon]

is it really that hard?

Well apparantly it is, because your high end time is over 30% higher than the other person. How can that be if its so easy to calculate?

[Palapop]

Well apparantly it is, because your high end time is over 30% higher than the other person. How can that be if its so easy to calculate?

Just grow up. No one said "exact" numbers, but he said aprox value of time invested into fulfilling vault reward slots.

They should nerf it to 7 dungeons (1 dungeon daily, as it was until Legion and modern-wow-slot-machine) for 3/3 rewards. 4/7 for 2/3 and 1/7 for 1/3.

[arkanon]

Just grow up. No one said "exact" numbers, but he said aprox value of time invested into fulfilling vault reward slots.

They should nerf it to 7 dungeons (1 dungeon daily, as it was until Legion and modern-wow-slot-machine) for 3/3 rewards. 4/7 for 2/3 and 1/7 for 1/3.

If you complete 5 M+ without issue, but then get stuck on the 6th and the group disbands, do you need to do the first 5 again?

Can you complete 3 M+ one day, then a few a couple days later, then the rest on the weekend?

If you complete 2 raid bosses, but then get stuck on the 3rd and the group disbands, is it easy to find a new group starting from the 3rd

Can you spread your raid bosses out over a week?

If you wipe in a M+, you have lost roughly 30 minutes, maybe as little as 5-10mins. What about a raid? Is it the same?

Why is it that in these scenarios, the M+ groups are a bunch of first timers who have no idea what they are doing and take 45 mins to complete a m+, but the raid groups are these amazing, easy to find groups who have the raid on farm and just happen to need you - just you, and they smash the bosses out in 180mins mins. Sorry, 120mins. No, wait, sorry - 240mins...

[BraveNewWorld]

What's this vault you speak of ?

Better yet . .what's Mythic+ ?

Are you even playing the game?

[arkanon]

Are you even playing the game?

A LOT of people dont raid, dont do M+, dont pvp - in fact, for a LONG time in wows history, those engaging in group content were greatly outnumbered by those who never did. LFR helped sway that number, and im not sure where it sits these days, but a lot of players barely make it to max level.

[mrgreenthump]

It's better than what we got in BFA in a sense that it has a better chance to get a good item. But at the same time, I really liked the one chance to get an item more. It felt more impactful when I got a good item, because I didn't expect to get one. Now I fully expect to get a good item and then am disappointed when I don't. That makes the grind so not worth it.

I don't know if you still are required to do 10 M+ to get the 3 chances, but at the start of each raid tier as a raider I felt pressured to do 10 M+ in order to maximize my gearing. Just a way more grindy system. Honestly I'd prefer going back to 5 drops a boss or having reroll tokens and then only the one roll of loot in a chest. Tune M+ and PvP to drop more loot as well. And for the love of god, let the loot from M+ to be upgraded to Mythic raiding iLvl.

[Addiena]

Are you even playing the game?

did you just take a pretty clear sarcasm post as being serious ?

I dont see anyone else taking it seriously.

If you want the truth I have never touched either system, I hate Mythic+ and simply ignore it, same for the vault ... if it stored all my uncollected vault items you could make a supermarket with them all since I have never used it.

Hence me asking sarcastically what these systems are since I ignore their existence.

[Dristereau]

I like the vault, like the chests in BFA it gives you incentives to do content with a bit more choice of reward if you focus on that content. I think it's good from a Raiding POV, you can get items you need that just won't drop (Jaithys), Mythic+ is high ilvl rewards for 15's which I was doing very early on my main and was better than Raid loot (Heroic Raid vs +15s at the time) and PVP it's nice to have choice (especially nice to see a weapon).

From a BFA to SL perspective, as someone who often did both M+ and PVP, it's a bit bad you now only have one thing you can take, but on the other hand there's more choice compared to BFA where you could get garbage or a 475 Cut of Death with good corruption.

If I had to change anything, I would lower the PVP and M+ requirements, for M+ I'd go with 1/3/7 or 1/4/8 as I think 10 is excessive. I'd also lower the third PVP one from 6250 to 5000.

I'm unsure how I feel about buffing M+ gear from dungeons, especially early on you would just skip normal/heroic raid and half gear from M+ for Mythic Raid. I'm currently using 5 items from M+ Vault because of good item level + stats from the vault, might be excessive to be able to get that in the first week or so farming M+.

I would like to see bonus rolls return but I partially feel the vault is better. Also I kind of miss Titan/Warforging, it made loot more interesting on reclears.

[Kalisandra]

I think the vault is fine for raids, but not mythic+.

A raid takes like 2-3 hours to clear. 10 mythic+ are gonna take you north of 6 hours to get. Also, pugging is a nightmare in mythic+ cause one person leaving means a wasted run. A bad run can take upwards of 40m, etc.

So, as far as mythic+ goes, the vault is really not much better than the old weekly chest. Except we lost the bonus roll tokens too.

I do not want titanforges and the sort back. Just an adjustment on the number of mythic+ runs needed to fill the vault. I would go with 1, 2, 4.

It's not as if pugging raids is exactly a quaranteed success either. Compare like with like.

Now, that the box at the end of an m+ run drops loot that's not even heroic raid level, even for m+15, that's a problem. The drops from m+ runs themselves should be a bit better than they are, so it's not all about the box.

On the other hand, raid loot isn't upgradeable, so non-mythic raiders end up getting that one piece from the vault per week and having to farm the raid to get extra choices. Alternatively they have to run m+ runs for those choices. At least the first extra choice on takes one run.

I think m+ gear should be a bit better, and raid gear should be upgradeable. It's not as if normal and heroic raiders being able to slooooowly upgrade their gear to i246 is going to break anything, and you'd put a cap in so you had to kill certain bosses at each level to enable the various upgrade levels, so no worries about LFR raiders upgrading their way into end-heroic ilevels. I'd also make valour more available - the ilevel caps stop people just upgrading willy-nilly anyway, so all being stingy with valour does is make gearing alts painful. But making alts painful seems to be a goal in itself sometimes.