So Sylvanas never actually defeated The Lich King on her own? Possible Spoilers

[Doctor Amadeus]

That's like saying we didn't actually defeat the Burning Legion because we were on borrowed power.

That's what I am asking and yeah kind of, OR she did it but it couldn't have been done without being helped by Zovaal.

As your other part again Yeah, wouldn't have been the first time either would it?

[Super Dickmann]

I'm a little unclear on why the veil between Azeroth and the Shadowlands needed to be torn open at all. At least that early.

It lets Sylvanas enter the Shadowlands, and allowed the Mawsworn to abduct all those characters. But like... that just meant the players had an incentive to chase after them, which led to them rallying the Covenants to fight the Jailer.

It seems like the Jailer's plans would've unfolded more easily if that hadn't happened. If he'd just kept things quiet and not gotten Azeroth involved until later (looks like his plan in 9.2 requires it) it seems like everything would be working out way better for him.

The actual reason is of course that they decided on the broken sky visual first and did the rest of the writing later, but beyond the fact that he needs access to Azeroth in 9.2, he also needed a living person to serve as his sockpuppet to get two of the plot devices. It's what he was testing the leader characters for and why he mentions Baine and Thrall didn't pass muster.

[Varodoc]

And you're saying this wasn't us either?

The feat is attributed to Janitor/Azeroth, not Sylvanas/PC.

It could have been anyone in Sylvanas/PC's place and the same outcome would have happened, because they were purely acting as vessel for someone else's power.

It could have been Joe the random beggar in Sylvanas' place and the Lich King would have still lost against someone empowered by the Janitor.

[FelPlague]

I'm a little unclear on why the veil between Azeroth and the Shadowlands needed to be torn open at all. At least that early.

she needed to bring mortals into the maw so he could infiltrate the covenants. and without the veil broken there is no way to do that.

[Maleific]

Isn't the Lich King essentially an entity that exists based on borrowed power from Zovaal now too?

[Biomega]

What's the problem with borrowed power, isn't that what WoW is all about?

[Golden Yak]

Isn't the Lich King essentially an entity that exists based on borrowed power from Zovaal now too?

He always was. Started as an orc spirit and was given the power of undeath. Initially from Kil'jaeden and the dreadlords, now revealed as ultimately from the Jailer.

[Thorqin]

All power in Warcraft lore is borrowed power, from one source or another.

[Varodoc]

All power in Warcraft lore is borrowed power, from one source or another.

False.

Some beings, like Alleria Windrunner and the Ren'dorei, have made that power entirely their own and part of themselves.

[Ghost of Cow]

I'm a little unclear on why the veil between Azeroth and the Shadowlands needed to be torn open at all. At least that early.

It lets Sylvanas enter the Shadowlands, and allowed the Mawsworn to abduct all those characters. But like... that just meant the players had an incentive to chase after them, which led to them rallying the Covenants to fight the Jailer.

It seems like the Jailer's plans would've unfolded more easily if that hadn't happened. If he'd just kept things quiet and not gotten Azeroth involved until later (looks like his plan in 9.2 requires it) it seems like everything would be working out way better for him.

Just standard Dumb Evil Overlord writing. You see it in stories all the time.

"Muahaha, after years of work my victory is at hand! Tomorrow my ultimate weapon will be complete! It will siphon all the magic of the world into me and make me a god! ...I could just wait for it to finish and no one would even know what's happening until after it's done, but instead I think I'll kidnap the princess and announce my plan to the king! Yes, that should work nicely. What could go wrong?" <movie starts here>

[Combatbutler]

Some beings, like Alleria Windrunner and the Ren'dorei, have made that power entirely their own and part of themselves.

They weren't born with it, so no not their power.

[czarek]

Yeah all powers are borrowed tbh. Is she defeated LK ? Im not sure she ever done this with anypower. LK were submerged in Bolvar. In SL she destroyed helmet but thats only vessel. Is it possible to LK still exist ? If defeat = desactivate yes if defeat = kill imo nope.

[StillMcfuu]

So Sylvannas never actually defeated The Lich King on her own it was on borrowed power from Zovaal?

Trying to read up lately and some things are kind of confusing I mean so Sylvannas didn't kill all those Nighelves or was she being controlled and what about Anduin is he in the same boat now?

She was under the imperious curse, many a dark wizard claimed to being controlled by Zooval, but how do you really tell?

[VinceVega]

Sylvanas has been using power channeled to her from the Shadowlands since post-Wrath, when she committed suicide and was resurrected by the val'kyr.

She was never really being controlled, she had her soul fractured by Frostmourne since her first death and it affected her judgment and actions. The fragment was returned to her by Zovaal at the end of the Sanctum of Domination raid.

Anduin seems to be in a different situation, as he was explicitly controlled by Zovaal's Domination magic, which overwrites the will of the victim.

It didn't really. Wasn't that the whole point of the cinematic with Uther? That it was in fact she who did all of this. The other part was just also she frozen in time. So now she can look at herself with her past morals an see what she has become. Like a Christamas Carol situation but unable to change anything.

[Houle]

False.

Some beings, like Alleria Windrunner and the Ren'dorei, have made that power entirely their own and part of themselves.

If you put it that way, then the LK also made that power his own, since Zovaal had no way of controlling him or taking his power away.
The LK got the power from Zovaal and the Primus (who created Domination Magic and the blueprint for the Helm of Domination), but from that moment on, it was his own. Which is why Zovaal had to pump Sylvanas full of even more power, and sent her to defeat the LK in a fight, because he had no control over the LKs and their power.
Zovaal+Primus created a weapon (the Helm of Domination), but had no control over whoever wielded that weapon (Ner'zhul, Arthas, Bolvar) and no way of stopping the weapon from being wielded.

[Maljinwo]

If you put it that way, then the LK also made that power his own, since Zovaal had no way of controlling him or taking his power away.

Don't argue with Varodoc.

They are a lost cause. Drank too deep from the void elf kool aid and believes they are actually a good race

[Civciv]

Don't argue with Varodoc.

They are a lost cause. Drank too deep from the void elf kool aid and believes they are actually a good race

What do you mean? Void elves are the superior race. /s

[Ehrenpanzer]

Yeah, that was kinda clear.

They still never explained why she didn't just kill Bolvar, though.

I dont think she could. I mean, The Lich King isnt exactly an old orc warrior. Bolvar was infused with the Life Binders powers as well as whatever magical mcguffins the helm gave him. That and she really had no NEED to try and kill him, simply taking the crown and shattering it was her goal.

[OokOok]

Lol all these sylvannas simps

Saying It's not her fault because her "Soul was fractured" and "She wasn't right of mind" Is like saying a mass murderer is innocent and shouldn't be in jail because he suffers from depression and schizophrenia.

She wasn't being mind controlled like Anduin, she acted all on her own.

[shadowmatrix]

So Sylvannas never actually defeated The Lich King on her own it was on borrowed power from Zovaal?

Trying to read up lately and some things are kind of confusing I mean so Sylvannas didn't kill all those Nighelves or was she being controlled and what about Anduin is he in the same boat now?

Zovaal gave her new powers that directly countered Bolvar and told her the best ways to counter his. She wasn't being controlled, just manipulated. Anduin is being directly controlled as a puppet.