So Sylvanas never actually defeated The Lich King on her own? Possible Spoilers

[Doctor Amadeus]

So Sylvannas never actually defeated The Lich King on her own it was on borrowed power from Zovaal?

Trying to read up lately and some things are kind of confusing I mean so Sylvannas didn't kill all those Nighelves or was she being controlled and what about Anduin is he in the same boat now?

[Golden Yak]

So Sylvannas never actually defeated The Lich King on her own it was on borrowed power from Zovaal?

Trying to read up lately and some things are kind of confusing I mean so Sylvannas didn't kill all those Nighelves or was she being controlled and what about Anduin is he in the same boat now?

Sylvanas has been using power channeled to her from the Shadowlands since post-Wrath, when she committed suicide and was resurrected by the val'kyr.

She was never really being controlled, she had her soul fractured by Frostmourne since her first death and it affected her judgment and actions. The fragment was returned to her by Zovaal at the end of the Sanctum of Domination raid.

Anduin seems to be in a different situation, as he was explicitly controlled by Zovaal's Domination magic, which overwrites the will of the victim.

[Jokubas]

Yes. This is part of the reason I lamented how poorly the visuals were getting across what was actually going on during the mak'gora and the Bolvar fight. We've actually known since the end of Battle for Azeroth that Sylvanas was being empowered by some mysterious benefactor, but the cutscenes failed to make her actions look unusual so many misinterpreted it as Bolvar just being weak.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Sylvanas has been using power channeled to her from the Shadowlands since post-Wrath, when she committed suicide and was resurrected by the val'kyr.

She was never really being controlled, she had her soul fractured by Frostmourne since her first death and it affected her judgment and actions. The fragment was returned to her by Zovaal at the end of the Sanctum of Domination raid.

Anduin seems to be in a different situation, as he was explicitly controlled by Zovaal's Domination magic, which overwrites the will of the victim.

Ok thanks for explaining that. Been reading what I can this morning still seemed confusing.

Also kind of confused how the hell she ripped off the helmet and split it. Maybe being undead it didn’t rip her apart. But still that kind of energy. Even if she beat him one on one. Which was odd in itself. Surprising and kind of bad ass but I didn’t get it.

I guess overall was she or wasn’t she responsible for the world tree. Again thanks for filling in the blanks.

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Yes. This is part of the reason I lamented how poorly the visuals were getting across what was actually going on during the mak'gora and the Bolvar fight. We've actually known since the end of Battle for Azeroth that Sylvanas was being empowered by some mysterious benefactor, but the cutscenes failed to make her actions look unusual so many misinterpreted it as Bolvar just being weak.

Yeah I gotta agree. I wasn’t sure if this was just her Ranger abilities or merged with being a undead banshee or some kind new of dark ranger death knight deal.

Also kind of uncertain how holy light Anduin got possessed.

[Jokubas]

After the mak'gora there was NPC dialogue about how Sylvanas used completely unknown magic to kill Saurfang, or something like that, but it was really "tell" rather than "show." There was nothing about Sylvanas blasting Saurfang with purple magic and killing him that didn't feel like something she shouldn't be able to do under normal circumstances. It basically looked like her Wailing Arrow ult from Heroes of the Storm. At the very least, as I said back then, her magic in those scenes should have been a different color. A non fel green, or a ghostly grey, or maybe even an icy blue. That would have at least signaled that she was doing something unusual. Purple is close enough to her normal banshee and shadowy abilities that it didn't stand out at all.

For Anduin it has to do a lot with how absolutely powerful Domination magic is supposed to be, but they're still keeping some of that a secret for the final raid, I think.

[Golden Yak]

Also kind of confused how the hell she ripped off the helmet and split it. Maybe being undead it didn’t rip her apart. But still that kind of energy. Even if she beat him one on one. Which was odd in itself. Surprising and kind of bad ass but I didn’t get it.

I guess overall was she or wasn’t she responsible for the world tree. Again thanks for filling in the blanks.

Yeah, the Shadowlands storyline reveals that the helm (and Frostmourne) were ultimately created by the Jailer and filled with his power. So Sylvanas also being juiced up by him could explain how she was able to destroy the helm and defeat Bolvar, who had been fighting against the power the Jailer (which is why Sylvanas went to fight him in the first place).

And it could be argued that with her soul fracture Sylvanas wasn't in her right mind (and hasn't been since her death). She was at least a different person in death than in life and with her soul restored.

[Maljinwo]

I guess overall was she or wasn’t she responsible for the world tree. .

Yes, she was. No matter if she feels bad about it now. Those dead nelves can't come back

[Doctor Amadeus]

Yeah, the Shadowlands storyline reveals that the helm (and Frostmourne) were ultimately created by the Jailer and filled with his power. So Sylvanas also being juiced up by him could explain how she was able to destroy the helm and defeat Bolvar, who had been fighting against the power the Jailer (which is why Sylvanas went to fight him in the first place).

And it could be argued that with her soul fracture Sylvanas wasn't in her right mind (and hasn't been since her death). She was at least a different person in death than in life and with her soul restored.

Yeah like I said it was bad ass but still up till now made no sense. But yeah if it was The Jailers magic that created it it makes sense why she was able to beat the Lich King 1 v 1 and remove the helmet, and Bolvar not being human anymore explains why it didn't kill him.

Otherwise it wouldn't make sense why anybody couldn't do the same thing as Sylvannas provided they were her same level of fighting skill. I would have imagined the helm of otherwise couldn't be removed especially without killing the whoever was wearing it.

I say that because Uther was just a human when he put it on I am guessing the reason it didn't kill it's hose is because it protected them. Thus being a crown that made the Lich King and a slave.

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After the mak'gora there was NPC dialogue about how Sylvanas used completely unknown magic to kill Saurfang, or something like that, but it was really "tell" rather than "show." There was nothing about Sylvanas blasting Saurfang with purple magic and killing him that didn't feel like something she shouldn't be able to do under normal circumstances. It basically looked like her Wailing Arrow ult from Heroes of the Storm. At the very least, as I said back then, her magic in those scenes should have been a different color. A non fel green, or a ghostly grey, or maybe even an icy blue. That would have at least signaled that she was doing something unusual. Purple is close enough to her normal banshee and shadowy abilities that it didn't stand out at all.

For Anduin it has to do a lot with how absolutely powerful Domination magic is supposed to be, but they're still keeping some of that a secret for the final raid, I think.

Yeah the blast thing made no sense either. Until after she killed The Lich King, but until it didn't make sense how she did either. I think it will be interesting to see if Dragon Isle is the next expansion how they play into what happened.

[Vakir]

Yeah, that was kinda clear.

They still never explained why she didn't just kill Bolvar, though.

[Dellis0991]

So Sylvannas never actually defeated The Lich King on her own it was on borrowed power from Zovaal?

Trying to read up lately and some things are kind of confusing I mean so Sylvannas didn't kill all those Nighelves or was she being controlled and what about Anduin is he in the same boat now?

She was using power from Zovaal to beat Bolvar, she was 100 percent in control of her actions when she burned Teldrassil, shattered soul or not she was in control. Anduin isn't in control of himself, he literally has Zovaal's hand up his ass playing him like a hand puppet. You just gotta know he's gonna have PTSD when they get him back to the land of the living.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Yeah, that was kinda clear.

They still never explained why she didn't just kill Bolvar, though.

She Couldn't?

Remember he was infused with the power from the Lifebinder I mean her power's seem to give her foresight and speed to counter anything The Lich King did with his power ultimately bound him, otherwise you're right why didn't she kill him like Saur Fang. My guess is she couldn't

[Vakir]

She Couldn't?

Remember he was infused with the power from the Lifebinder I mean her power's seem to give her foresight and speed to counter anything The Lich King did with his power ultimately bound him, otherwise you're right why didn't she kill him like Saur Fang. My guess is she couldn't

I'll kinda buy it? Maybe? Wish it was more clear.

[Wonderment2]

Yes. This is part of the reason I lamented how poorly the visuals were getting across what was actually going on during the mak'gora and the Bolvar fight. We've actually known since the end of Battle for Azeroth that Sylvanas was being empowered by some mysterious benefactor, but the cutscenes failed to make her actions look unusual so many misinterpreted it as Bolvar just being weak.

Maybe in the mak'gora but seemed pretty obvious at icecrown citedel when she has the power to make chains that something different was going on

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Yes. This is part of the reason I lamented how poorly the visuals were getting across what was actually going on during the mak'gora and the Bolvar fight. We've actually known since the end of Battle for Azeroth that Sylvanas was being empowered by some mysterious benefactor, but the cutscenes failed to make her actions look unusual so many misinterpreted it as Bolvar just being weak.

Agreed, it was beautiful to see but it was eyeroll worthy to watch her just shit all over him and not even pressured. Not interesting.

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah, that was kinda clear.

They still never explained why she didn't just kill Bolvar, though.

She read the script and knew that he'd later be the one to give her and the Jailer the Primus's plot coupon and wouldn't really threaten them in any way.

@Jakobus

As for OP's question regarding Sylvanas and the night elves, she is still responsible for cooking them, we even see Sylvanas defending her call to do so in the new cinematic. Anduin's not responsible for anything since he's a puppet for the Bald Man, with the exception of when he's given his body back between missions so that Sylvanas can convince herself she didn't fuck up by talking to him.

[Varodoc]

Yes.

It was not like with Alleria, her sister, who absorbed the power of two Void demi-gods, and made that Divine power her own and part of her very being.

Sylvanas relied entirely on borrowed power, without the Janitor giving her some juice, she was just some random banshee with nothing unique or special about her.

Essentially it wasn't "Sylvanas vs. Lich King", it was "Janitor with Sylvanas' body vs. Lich King".

[Golden Yak]

I'm a little unclear on why the veil between Azeroth and the Shadowlands needed to be torn open at all. At least that early.

It lets Sylvanas enter the Shadowlands, and allowed the Mawsworn to abduct all those characters. But like... that just meant the players had an incentive to chase after them, which led to them rallying the Covenants to fight the Jailer.

It seems like the Jailer's plans would've unfolded more easily if that hadn't happened. If he'd just kept things quiet and not gotten Azeroth involved until later (looks like his plan in 9.2 requires it) it seems like everything would be working out way better for him.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Yes.

It was not like with Alleria, her sister, who absorbed the power of two Void demi-gods, and made that Divine power her own and part of her very being.

Sylvanas relied entirely on borrowed power, without the Janitor giving her some juice, she was just some random banshee with nothing unique or special about her.

Essentially it wasn't "Sylvanas vs. Lich King", it was "Janitor with Sylvanas' body vs. Lich King".

Yeah which because of Anduin I was wondering if The World Tree also gets blamed on Zovaal in the end.

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I'm a little unclear on why the veil between Azeroth and the Shadowlands needed to be torn open at all. At least that early.

It lets Sylvanas enter the Shadowlands, and allowed the Mawsworn to abduct all those characters. But like... that just meant the players had an incentive to chase after them, which led to them rallying the Covenants to fight the Jailer.

It seems like the Jailer's plans would've unfolded more easily if that hadn't happened. If he'd just kept things quiet and not gotten Azeroth involved until later (looks like his plan in 9.2 requires it) it seems like everything would be working out way better for him.

LOL all true, not the tightest plot since WoW.

[Powerogue]

So Sylvannas never actually defeated The Lich King on her own it was on borrowed power from Zovaal?

Trying to read up lately and some things are kind of confusing I mean so Sylvannas didn't kill all those Nighelves or was she being controlled and what about Anduin is he in the same boat now?

That's like saying we didn't actually defeat the Burning Legion because we were on borrowed power.

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Yes.

It was not like with Alleria, her sister, who absorbed the power of two Void demi-gods, and made that Divine power her own and part of her very being.

Sylvanas relied entirely on borrowed power, without the Janitor giving her some juice, she was just some random banshee with nothing unique or special about her.

Essentially it wasn't "Sylvanas vs. Lich King", it was "Janitor with Sylvanas' body vs. Lich King".

And you're saying this wasn't us either?

[Foolicious]

I'm a little unclear on why the veil between Azeroth and the Shadowlands needed to be torn open at all. At least that early.

It lets Sylvanas enter the Shadowlands, and allowed the Mawsworn to abduct all those characters. But like... that just meant the players had an incentive to chase after them, which led to them rallying the Covenants to fight the Jailer.

Absolutely. There wasn't even a reason to abduct any of them other than sylvanas bruised ego. That the jailer found some use for anduin was a lucky strike.