Sargeras VS Zovaal

[Aucald]

A power can have several magics at once. Domination and necromancy are death magics.

I kind of think of the language as sort of the umbrella force or expression of a given sphere (of the 6 Prime spheres in the cosmological chart). Necromancy could be said to be an expression of Domination in the same way Pyromancy is an expression of the Arcane, or healing magic is an expression of the Light. The difference between a branch and the roots of a given Sphere, you could say.

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Maybe? But I’d argue that wouldn’t explain why the heart of Eternity is all Blue and why I think the first phase is called the origin of Domination. Also doesn’t fit with “the seventh convets what the 6 hold fast” and it talks about how the Fulcrum weavers and all will be “undone”. Ik Attendants say it’s nothing and that the thing lies, but Domination doesn’t really work like Necromancy does, tbh.

Domination has always been a part of Necromancy, though; in that, a Necromancer raises the undead as his or her thralls - bound to their will, which is what Domination is all about. True Domination doesn't limit itself to the undead, though; it is more about dictating terms to reality itself and can hold much more in its thrall than simple servants. It can, if wielded by a master such as the Primus, bind even god-like beings in the same fashion that Zovaal himself was bound, at least until he managed to free himself eons later.

As for the whispered utterances of the Everliving Statuette, it's really too early to say if these have any bearing on the First Ones - assuming they're not outright lies from an object with a noted penchant for duplicity. That being said, this supposed "Seventh" that was either cast out or suppressed in the design of the First Ones probably stands apart from any of the Spheres we currently know, including Death. Domination is part of the Sphere of Death and was cultivated by one of its Eternal Ones directly - it doesn't stand apart from the design of the First Ones, but is explicitly part of the system they created and was a direct creation of one of their direct creations (the Primus). Whatever the Seventh is, if it's actually anything, is likely different from any of the six known Spheres or their attendant essences.

[darkoms]

I kind of think of the language as sort of the umbrella force or expression of a given sphere (of the 6 Prime spheres in the cosmological chart). Necromancy could be said to be an expression of Domination in the same way Pyromancy is an expression of the Arcane, or healing magic is an expression of the Light. The difference between a branch and the roots of a given Sphere, you could say.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Domination

Domination is a separate kind of magic. Domination didn't exist on Azeroth until the advent of the Lich King (unlike necromancy).

[Aucald]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Domination

Domination is a separate kind of magic. Domination didn't exist on Azeroth until the advent of the Lich King (unlike necromancy).

I didn't say it wasn't separate, just that the two were related. They obviously do very different things but there's also a noteworthy overlap.

[qwerty123456]

No. Sargeras needed to remake the whole Order Pantheon to pull that shit off, and that’s simply him wanting Argus to remake it all so that the Big Bang could reoccur without the Void ordeal hopefully. However, as we know, the powers of Order and Disorder, even the ones like Life, Death, etc suck at knowing they literally were made by the First Ones and if Azeroth wakes or dies, existence gets fucked, the forces die or fall into chaos in the process, THAT is why the 6 powers took SHAPE from the geometry and were the first specimens of the Progenitors’ language. It’s also why the meditation of existence exists. It and the powers plus language are contextual, and the First Ones are so fucking op, their THOUGHTS are above even platonic concepts

Argus also benefitted Zovaal more tbh

How much dope are you smoking dude?

He didn't need the whole order Pantheon. Dude was able to run to each planet and one shot it just fine. Just cause the dreadlords told him "hey we got an easier way". Doesn't mean he wasn't achieving his goal just fine before that.

The fact of the matter is the First Ones saw the future of the shadowlands and how pathetically weak Zovaal was and decided to give a mortal a teleporter and let shit play out. And as we can see from the proto eternal ones It's pretty damn easy for them to make a new one and yet they don't bother. Dude has to use Titan's, Titan's tech, and First One's tech, Denathrius feeding him info and anima for a billion plus years, Dreadlords tricking Sargeras and everyone else for him and he still gets owned by a mortal with a teleporter.

[Kharnath]

For those using Sargeras size from the ingame cinematic at the end of Antorus the Burning Throne raid...

What's your opinion of Medivh?

He was meant to be the most powerful 'thing' upon Azeroth and yet he was just the size of an average man? I have NO DOUBT that he could make himself look bigger with the power he wielded but.

I find the whole "Sargeras is bigger thus stronger!" Discussion to be quite testosterone filled...

There are countless times where significantly smaller individuals have defeated significantly larger entities.
Ex: Ancalagon the Silmarillion?
FF14 that big dragon vs that old man?
(Dunno don't play FF)

And as others seem to of stated in here and it does make sense to me.

The "titans" is just the title for the leaders of "Order" they have equivalent counterparts in the 5 other realms of order.

Otherwise why isn't everything that exists following 1 specific order because said 1 of the 6 is more powerful and defeated the other 5 order realms?

[darkoms]

For those using Sargeras size from the ingame cinematic at the end of Antorus the Burning Throne raid...

What's your opinion of Medivh?

He was meant to be the most powerful 'thing' upon Azeroth and yet he was just the size of an average man? I have NO DOUBT that he could make himself look bigger with the power he wielded but.

I find the whole "Sargeras is bigger thus stronger!" Discussion to be quite testosterone filled...

There are countless times where significantly smaller individuals have defeated significantly larger entities.
Ex: Ancalagon the Silmarillion?
FF14 that big dragon vs that old man?
(Dunno don't play FF)

And as others seem to of stated in here and it does make sense to me.

The "titans" is just the title for the leaders of "Order" they have equivalent counterparts in the 5 other realms of order.

Otherwise why isn't everything that exists following 1 specific order because said 1 of the 6 is more powerful and defeated the other 5 order realms?

Medivh has never been the most powerful being on Azeroth.




I guess there's a difference between being just bigger than someone else, when someone else can still hurt you in vital places or something, and when you're the fucking size of a planet.

[FuxieDK]

Medivh has never been the most powerful being on Azeroth.

I think he means that green abomination that starts with an M and must not be named.

[TheFirstOnes]

I think he means that green abomination that starts with an M and must not be named.

Funny enough, he's not that powerful anymore...

[FuxieDK]

Funny enough, he's not that powerful anymore...

Well, he's made up to be more powerful than both Medivh and Aegwynn..

Only oblivion seems to have been able to affect him

[TheFirstOnes]

How much dope are you smoking dude?

He didn't need the whole order Pantheon. Dude was able to run to each planet and one shot it just fine. Just cause the dreadlords told him "hey we got an easier way". Doesn't mean he wasn't achieving his goal just fine before that.

The fact of the matter is the First Ones saw the future of the shadowlands and how pathetically weak Zovaal was and decided to give a mortal a teleporter and let shit play out. And as we can see from the proto eternal ones It's pretty damn easy for them to make a new one and yet they don't bother. Dude has to use Titan's, Titan's tech, and First One's tech, Denathrius feeding him info and anima for a billion plus years, Dreadlords tricking Sargeras and everyone else for him and he still gets owned by a mortal with a teleporter.

He plunged his blade deep into Azeroth, and yet the death amps poison STILL caused more harm than it...

Stop. Also, once again, Sargeras' goal and Zovaals goals are entirely different, and Sargeras' WHOLE FUCKING PLAN was to make a Dark Pantheon and CORRUPT AZEROTH into a Demonic consort for Sargeras. Him stabbing the planet was a final resort. You play Legion at all?

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Well, he's made up to be more powerful than both Medivh and Aegwynn..

Only oblivion seems to have been able to affect him

...or...idk...

Anyone around Aspect lvls of power and beyond? Me'dan wouldn't last in Ny'alotha with his Guardian BS, fr...

[FuxieDK]

Anyone around Aspect lvls of power and beyond? Me'dan wouldn't last in Ny'alotha with his Guardian BS, fr...

Well, his plot armor is (or at least was) stronger than Anduin's and Jaina's combined.

Be would make N'zoth his bitch, just by entering Ny'alotha, if he wanted.

[TheFirstOnes]

Even then, Azeroth is said and explicitly shown to be more powerful than all other Titan members anyway...but Sargeras and co couldn't see past their own limited viewpoint.

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Well, his plot armor is (or at least was) stronger than Anduin's and Jaina's combined.

Be would make N'zoth his bitch, just by entering Ny'alotha, if he wanted.

Plot Armor...heh...and he was still only able to defeat Cho'gall amped with limited old god magics? please...

And Jaina was a shell of her current power rn, SAME with Anduin, and this doesn't include the potential he gave em.

[darkoms]

Well, he's made up to be more powerful than both Medivh and Aegwynn..

Only oblivion seems to have been able to affect him

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that he was stronger than Medivh or Aegwynn. Med'an wasn't particularly powerful at all. All his exploits are nothing compared to the actions of Jaina or Sylvanas in Bfa, or even more so the actions of Malfurion in the books of Knaak.

[TheFirstOnes]

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that he was stronger than Medivh or Aegwynn. Med'an wasn't particularly powerful at all. All his exploits are nothing compared to the actions of Jaina or Sylvanas in Bfa, or even more so the actions of Malfurion in the books of Knaak.

...Yes actually...you're right.

[qwerty123456]

He plunged his blade deep into Azeroth, and yet the death amps poison STILL caused more harm than it...

Stop. Also, once again, Sargeras' goal and Zovaals goals are entirely different, and Sargeras' WHOLE FUCKING PLAN was to make a Dark Pantheon and CORRUPT AZEROTH into a Demonic consort for Sargeras. Him stabbing the planet was a final resort. You play Legion at all?

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...or...idk...

Anyone around Aspect lvls of power and beyond? Me'dan wouldn't last in Ny'alotha with his Guardian BS, fr...

No you clearly didn't pay attention. Sargeras whole plan was to remake the universe/reality which is what the Jailer also wants to do. He also wanted to corrupt Azeroth cause he became enamored with the world soul.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Pantheon
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sargeras
He didn't even realize the Titan's "survived" when he killed them. It's only much later that he finds out and decides to corrupt them to use their power for his goals. His goal was never to corrupt the other Titans aside from Azeroth and even then he originally wanted to kill her. His goal is to unmake then remake the universe so the Void Lords couldn't pop in and say hello.

Yes him trying to destroy Azeroth was a last resort since he couldn't have her and she could still be corrupted by the void.

[TheFirstOnes]

No you clearly didn't pay attention. Sargeras whole plan was to remake the universe/reality which is what the Jailer also wants to do. He also wanted to corrupt Azeroth cause he became enamored with the world soul.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Pantheon
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sargeras
He didn't even realize the Titan's "survived" when he killed them. It's only much later that he finds out and decides to corrupt them to use their power for his goals. His goal was never to corrupt the other Titans aside from Azeroth and even then he originally wanted to kill her. His goal is to unmake then remake the universe so the Void Lords couldn't pop in and say hello.

Yes him trying to destroy Azeroth was a last resort since he couldn't have her and she could still be corrupted by the void.

Uh yeah, I literally know all of this, but you do realize destroying Creation doesn’t mean his way of doing it and Zovaal’s way of doing it are the same. Hell,Zovaal makes his own HoA I’m p sure and sucks up Azeroths essence as his own, while Sargeras tries to corrupt Azeroth into the Fel, corrupt the souls of his brethren, and even torture his own premature world soul brother to bring about the end of all things.

Also…what? 7.3 exists for a damn good reason

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Y’all cherry pick your lore arguments the same way lore conspiracy mf’s cherry pick RPG lore or RTS Lore to wank the Titans…

[qwerty123456]

Uh yeah, I literally know all of this, but you do realize destroying Creation doesn’t mean his way of doing it and Zovaal’s way of doing it are the same. Hell,Zovaal makes his own HoA I’m p sure and sucks up Azeroths essence as his own, while Sargeras tries to corrupt Azeroth into the Fel, corrupt the souls of his brethren, and even torture his own premature world soul brother to bring about the end of all things.

Also…what? 7.3 exists for a damn good reason

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Y’all cherry pick your lore arguments the same way lore conspiracy mf’s cherry pick RPG lore or RTS Lore to wank the Titans…

That's my point. Sargeras didn't need help. He was happy just smashing planets until he was told there were easier ways. Zovaal couldn't destroy shit without tons of help from multiple different species.

I'm cherry picking? The whole argument was that Sargeras was more powerful since he didn't need help and was solo destroying planets before recruiting the demons while Zovaal couldn't do anything without the help of the Titan's, thier tech, Denathrius and the Dreadloards, and the tech of the First Ones.

If an elephant smashes a wall with its body while a squirrel ends up chewing through a wire on a bulldozer that causes it to then plow through 2 walls which animal is more powerful? Clearly the elephant.

[Magnagarde]

Sargeras would dismantle Zovaal like the Action-Man action figure that he is.

[darkoms]

...Yes actually...you're right.

It also amuses me how people point to its origins as if it's something special. Part orc, part human, draenei. I mean, people never heard of centaurs? Their lineage includes a moon goddess, a wild god, a keeper of the grove, an elemental lord, and an elemental princess.

[Kharnath]

Medivh has never been the most powerful being on Azeroth..

I thought his role when he was The Guardian equated to him being the most powerful thing on Azeroth in order to protect Azeroth from the most world ending threats?