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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Akillahz View Post
    Simply because the people who do put time/effort into the game will feel cheated. It's why the cosmetic rewards from MoP/WoD challenge mode dungeons and the Legion mage tower were unobtainable after the expansion. These things were challenging content at the time, people put time and effort into improving themselves, getting better at the game to beat this content and feel accomplished + are rewarded with transmogs, titles, mounts,... They can proudly wear/use. If they kept these rewards obtainable in the expansion after, it would be trivial content, everyone would be able to do it without effort and still get rewarded with the same cosmetics which would cause these cosmetics to lose in value/prestige, especially to the person who did it when it was challenging, they will feel like they wasted their time and energy trying so hard.
    I wouldn’t feel cheated if all the Mage Tower skins were made available through easier content. I didn’t acquire them to make myself feel good in comparison to a bunch of strangers on the internet. I did those challenges because I found them fun (for the most part) and that wouldn’t change if the rewards were put on a vendor an expansion later.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    When everybody is special, nobody is. Most MMORPGs did not get to where they are, especially long-lasting ones, without it being a niche in some manner or another.

    Playing basketball is a form of entertainment but not everybody is good enough to deserve a spot on an NBA team. People don't aspire to be regular, they tend to aspire to be the best, whether that's in business, sports, or even video games.
    The vast vast vast majority of players haven’t deluded themselves into thinking wow is the nba, trust me.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Would you subscribe to Netflix if they made you watch bad movies to “earn” the right to watch good ones? Would you call anyone who didn’t like that “lazy”? This is such a silly argument.

    You are arguing that a game, which is an entertaining escape, needs to be like an office job.
    That's a fallacious way of thinking. Just because something is entertainment doesn't mean that access to it grants the best from it. Again, just because you can pick up a ball and shoot it doesn't mean you're ready for the NBA. You want to reach NBA levels of play? You put in the time and effort to get there unless you have natural talent. There's a reason people aspire to be like Mike or Lebron and not Joe Schmo down the street that wears a Lakers jersey.

    Netflix is a platform more akin to Battle.net or Steam that provides access to entertainment for starters.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The vast vast vast majority of players haven’t deluded themselves into thinking wow is the nba, trust me.
    Yet you don't see people mentioning they deserve what Lebron gets for playing basketball in the neighborhood playground either. Same principle applies here.

    If you want to talk business, people are more cutthroat when it comes to what people feel entitled to in comparison to what they actually deserve. I don't see why we're considering a game any different in this aspect. WoW literally became the monster it was/is due to being a niche in the gaming market, so I'm failing to see how this is different.
    Last edited by Ekis; 2022-01-22 at 01:56 AM. Reason: Hard to type on a phone

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    That's a fallacious way of thinking. Just because something is entertainment doesn't mean that access to it grants the best from it. Again, just because you can pick up a ball and shoot it doesn't mean you're ready for the NBA. You want to reach NBA levels of play? You put in the time and effort to get there unless you have natural talent. There's a reason people aspire to be like Mike or Lebron and not Joe Schmo down the street that wears a Lakers jersey.

    Netflix is a platform more akin to Battle.net or Steam that provides access to entertainment for starters.
    We are talking about people that don’t give a fuck about deluding themselves into thinking talking cow lady video games are like the NBA.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  5. #145
    Keyboard Turner Akillahz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Would you subscribe to Netflix if they made you watch bad movies to “earn” the right to watch good ones? Would you call anyone who didn’t like that “lazy”? This is such a silly argument.

    You are arguing that a game, which is an entertaining escape, needs to be like an office job.
    Your Netflix comparison is so bad, its not even close to being similar. Like what you're saying is that you are forced to do bad content to gear up in WoW, then what is the good content that comes after you have BiS that you need BiS for? Like would I pay for a Netflix sub in that case you bring up? No i wouldnt but if I felt like content for gearing up in WoW is bad and I'm forced to do it for BiS that I apparently need to have fun in the game for some reason, then I wouldnt sub to WoW either and look for another game. But I dont consider raiding and/or gearing up in WoW as bad content, you do, so your Netlfix comparison isn't the same in my case.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    And weirdly I have never seen a single complaint from hardcore Destiny players about it.
    Hardcore WoW players are some of the most insecure people I have ever seen. I mean really, if anyone has anything they have but not through the way they got it, they fall to pieces.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    We are talking about people that don’t give a fuck about deluding themselves into thinking talking cow lady video games are like the NBA.
    Then why bring up any other form of entertainment though?

    So you think WoW is a "cow lady video game". Or what have you. That's fine. Why do you believe the game should be designed around you and not someone like me? What makes you "regular" yet another "not"? Is achieving something within that game at a faster pace or in an easier way the thing that separates them from "regular people"?

  8. #148
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    So sick of reading the same old "casuals want BiS gear for no effort" qq..

    NO THEY DON'T

    They just want ways to continue progressing their character in fun ways instead of the current competitive bullshit gameplay which for some odd reason is the only way Blizzard seems to be able to design anymore. Nobody is asking for BiS gear from world quests or whatever other stupid examples are being brought up.

    The Korthia research gear is a good example of good intentions but TERRIBLE execution. Why time-gate it just to hold people back? Why cap it at 233? Why not 246 if people put in the time to get the research if thats what they enjoy doing. Who does it hurt? Nobody. Even Torghast could've dropped a piece of loot at the end of it but again they decide NOT to for unknown reasons.

    Do I think the hardest difficulty should reward the best gear? Definitely. But that doesn't mean other content can't get close, because why not? Who cares..
    Subarashii chin chin mono
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  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Then why bring up any other form of entertainment though?

    So you think WoW is a "cow lady video game". Or what have you. That's fine. Why do you believe the game should be designed around you and not someone like me? What makes you "regular" yet another "not"? Is achieving something within that game at a faster pace or in an easier way the thing that separates them from "regular people"?
    Because what I am asking for has no impact on you whatsoever. For you, it isn’t fun unless someone else isn’t having fun, and that is a degenerate attitude.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Content that involve 20 ppl is far more challenging that PvP, so no PvP shouldnt give any gear equal to mythic raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    All the content in destiny is easy, nothing is really challenging in the game.
    Grandmasters and flawless content is actually challenging rather than not. Single percent digits for those completion seals has proven that even you obtained best gear in the game, still only few percent of actual playerbase has ever managed to achieve it.

    This further reinforces the notion that it's actually okay to obtain best possible gear earlier so you can tackle the challenges at greater ease. Which ties to what rewards do players want from these most challenging activities. For once it would be nice to be an activitiy itself with unique cosmetics and titles being preferable choice.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    So sick of reading the same old "casuals want BiS gear for no effort" qq..

    NO THEY DON'T

    They just want ways to continue progressing their character in fun ways instead of the current competitive bullshit gameplay which for some odd reason is the only way Blizzard seems to be able to design anymore. Nobody is asking for BiS gear from world quests or whatever other stupid examples are being brought up.

    The Korthia research gear is a good example of good intentions but TERRIBLE execution. Why time-gate it just to hold people back? Why cap it at 233? Why not 246 if people put in the time to get the research if thats what they enjoy doing. Who does it hurt? Nobody. Even Torghast could've dropped a piece of loot at the end of it but again they decide NOT to for unknown reasons.

    Do I think the hardest difficulty should reward the best gear? Definitely. But that doesn't mean other content can't get close, because why not? Who cares..
    It's hard to accept that when we literally have people in the same thread saying things like

    I don't want to do chores to get currency as a casual player, it should be given to me since I pay my sub just like everyone else.
    It muddies up what people define as casual because for many it denotes a sense of effort. I'm not sweaty now but I know I could be; I'm a casual yet I also play progression. I too don't want to do chores to get currency, but I definitely don't feel like something should be given to me because I pay for access to it either.

  12. #152
    Korthia did it well, almost. The grind was too much, but I think it was about the highest a non-instance player could push their ilevel doing solo content. So if they could refine that to be more in line with raid progression, I think that would be good.

    My never-gonna-happen wish for how to fix the issues, on paper, has two parts:

    1) The non-ilevel route: zone-specific 'borrowed power'. Similar to how the Garrisons had those special zone abilities, or how Zereth Mortis looks like it's going to have its own talent tree, I think outdoor zones should have that sort of feature that you can unlock over the course of a patch, gaining power to offset the lower items levels, and, importantly, does not carry into raids/dungeons/battlegrounds. Perhaps at the end you can unlock a slice of those buffs that carry into other outdoor zones in the expansion. That way raiders, dungeoneers and PvPers can completely ignore the system if they want, while casuals still get to enjoy feeling as powerful in outdoor/solo content as mythic dungeoneers/raiders when they come to an outdoor zone.

    2) Failing that, the ilevel revamp route: more upgradable gear tokens like in Korthia, tuned to be just a little less grindy, perhaps shortcuts for doing challenging pieces of outdoor content. Stuff like Horrific Visions, where you could actually earn decent gear, as opposed to Torghast, where you cannot. But the core part of making this work, without making it feel mandatory for raiders or mythic dungeon runners, IMO, is to segregate ilevel from the content.

    A bit confusing, but I'll try to explain. Raiders generally say, from what I've seen, that casuals shouldn't get ilevels higher than a normal raid. So let's say LFR is Tier 1, Normal is Tier 2, Heroic is Tier 3 and Mythic is Tier 4. Flag each piece of a gear a player can earn as coming from one of the four pillars of endgame content: PvP, Raids, Mythic Keystones or Outdoor/Casual content. When used in the same type of content as it was earned, the gear is at its full ilevel (eg a Mythic Raid weapon is at whatever the Tier 4 ilevel is set at for that patch). When used in a different type of content, the ilevel tier for that piece drops by two tiers.

    That way a casual player can earn 'mythic' gear with enough investment in their own content, but if they go into a raid they still need to earn raid gear, so they can't circumvent the progression by doing the 'easy' stuff. Likewise, a mythic raider will still have decent gear for outdoor content, but they won't have the best gear for outdoor content without progressing through outdoor content. Basically means players can get the full gamut of power from doing their main content and some progression on the side in other content, but they can't just do on type of content to overpower the rest of the game without doing anything there, which seems to be what raiders want when it comes to casuals obtaining powerful gear.

    Personally I'd prefer the first scenario, but I could live with the second.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Because what I am asking for has no impact on you whatsoever. For you, it isn’t fun unless someone else isn’t having fun, and that is a degenerate attitude.
    This is a massively multiplayer online game, not a single-player one. You want an RPG that has no impact on what others do in it, go pick up God of War?

    I don't even know what you're asking for but assuming it's based on the discussion we're having here, you find fun in instant gratification. I don't, but I also don't pick up an MMORPG and think that player progression should be completely invalidated because I want to participate in it how I want yet come out on top at the same time as the "non-regulars" or "degenerates", as you proclaim.

  14. #154
    It's really a conflict between the current systems (competitive) and people that wan't progress through non competition. We need both.
    It's really really really really sad that Blizzard made WoW into a competitive deathmatch friend vs. friend for the glory of ilvl. Really sad indeed.

    Oh look at me I'm more powerful than you! Cobra kai! keklol. It's fun with some avenues of competition and challenges are fun too! But if every avenue that leads to top ilvl gear is competition then people aren't going to be happy. You'll find people(that don't really want to compete) accept the situation by buying boost or pretending to be good.

    Are we supposed to feel grandious and prestigious and powerful because our ilvl score is higher than those casual non competitive people that just want to enjoy the adventure of the game in peace?

    Really bad game design if all avenues of progression are competitive. Vanilla had it right in many ways. Modern wow should and would be different but I doubt Blizzard knows how to do anything except for lying to their playerbase.

    What I'm saying is I don't think there should be a situation where you play WoW ALOT and you try to get somewhere but you're permanently hardstuck.
    Last edited by nvaelz; 2022-01-22 at 02:32 AM.

  15. #155
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    It's hard to accept that when we literally have people in the same thread saying things like



    It muddies up what people define as casual because for many it denotes a sense of effort. I'm not sweaty now but I know I could be; I'm a casual yet I also play progression. I too don't want to do chores to get currency, but I definitely don't feel like something should be given to me because I pay for access to it either.
    Unfortunately it does get tricky with people like that around for sure.

    Don't mind chores for currency myself but definitely agree on not wanting things for free and I'm pretty confident in saying most casual players are the same way.

    There should be a correlation between difficulty done and time spent. Obviously difficulty done wins out but time spent should mean something too. Not everyone is equally skilled and they don't have to be and imo a MMORPG shouldn't be just about skill and definitely shouldn't just reward skill.

    It's just a bit silly to me that they make casual players feel like second or even third class citizens sometimes by the amount of shit they offer them and expect them to be happy.. but judging by how many people quit I'd say a lot of them left so it'll be interesting to see how they're going to solve this moving foward.
    Last edited by Sanguinerd; 2022-01-22 at 02:31 AM.
    Subarashii chin chin mono
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  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    So sick of reading the same old "casuals want BiS gear for no effort" qq..

    NO THEY DON'T

    They just want ways to continue progressing their character in fun ways instead of the current competitive bullshit gameplay which for some odd reason is the only way Blizzard seems to be able to design anymore. Nobody is asking for BiS gear from world quests or whatever other stupid examples are being brought up.

    The Korthia research gear is a good example of good intentions but TERRIBLE execution. Why time-gate it just to hold people back? Why cap it at 233? Why not 246 if people put in the time to get the research if thats what they enjoy doing. Who does it hurt? Nobody. Even Torghast could've dropped a piece of loot at the end of it but again they decide NOT to for unknown reasons.

    Do I think the hardest difficulty should reward the best gear? Definitely. But that doesn't mean other content can't get close, because why not? Who cares..
    It would more or less make pugging impossible for newer players if you set it higher. It is already brutal for late comers who want to progress into mythic raiding to get geared since pugs are skeptical of anyone without at least a 2k io or 245 ilv.

    If you made the base ilv 246 from effortless content they wouldn't want to take anyone below 250ilv and 2.3k io

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Soeroah View Post
    Korthia did it well, almost. The grind was too much, but I think it was about the highest a non-instance player could push their ilevel doing solo content. So if they could refine that to be more in line with raid progression, I think that would be good.

    My never-gonna-happen wish for how to fix the issues, on paper, has two parts:

    1) The non-ilevel route: zone-specific 'borrowed power'. Similar to how the Garrisons had those special zone abilities, or how Zereth Mortis looks like it's going to have its own talent tree, I think outdoor zones should have that sort of feature that you can unlock over the course of a patch, gaining power to offset the lower items levels, and, importantly, does not carry into raids/dungeons/battlegrounds. Perhaps at the end you can unlock a slice of those buffs that carry into other outdoor zones in the expansion. That way raiders, dungeoneers and PvPers can completely ignore the system if they want, while casuals still get to enjoy feeling as powerful in outdoor/solo content as mythic dungeoneers/raiders when they come to an outdoor zone.

    2) Failing that, the ilevel revamp route: more upgradable gear tokens like in Korthia, tuned to be just a little less grindy, perhaps shortcuts for doing challenging pieces of outdoor content. Stuff like Horrific Visions, where you could actually earn decent gear, as opposed to Torghast, where you cannot. But the core part of making this work, without making it feel mandatory for raiders or mythic dungeon runners, IMO, is to segregate ilevel from the content.

    A bit confusing, but I'll try to explain. Raiders generally say, from what I've seen, that casuals shouldn't get ilevels higher than a normal raid. So let's say LFR is Tier 1, Normal is Tier 2, Heroic is Tier 3 and Mythic is Tier 4. Flag each piece of a gear a player can earn as coming from one of the four pillars of endgame content: PvP, Raids, Mythic Keystones or Outdoor/Casual content. When used in the same type of content as it was earned, the gear is at its full ilevel (eg a Mythic Raid weapon is at whatever the Tier 4 ilevel is set at for that patch). When used in a different type of content, the ilevel tier for that piece drops by two tiers.

    That way a casual player can earn 'mythic' gear with enough investment in their own content, but if they go into a raid they still need to earn raid gear, so they can't circumvent the progression by doing the 'easy' stuff. Likewise, a mythic raider will still have decent gear for outdoor content, but they won't have the best gear for outdoor content without progressing through outdoor content. Basically means players can get the full gamut of power from doing their main content and some progression on the side in other content, but they can't just do on type of content to overpower the rest of the game without doing anything there, which seems to be what raiders want when it comes to casuals obtaining powerful gear.

    Personally I'd prefer the first scenario, but I could live with the second.

    I was going for that, though to make it easier on Blizzard just have set bonuses that activate in the content it's relevant for. Of course, would never happen but it's the only way that people could at the very minimum be happy going forward.

    Then again, the people who get gear to pubstomp outdoor content or PvP or something would too get angered because they'd feel the gear they obtained would be useless outside of those things thus we come back to square one. Hence my original idea was to just go back to the basics. They can't please everybody but in trying to do so they're literally causing discord for most (at least, the vocal peeps).

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    This is a massively multiplayer online game, not a single-player one. You want an RPG that has no impact on what others do in it, go pick up God of War?

    I don't even know what you're asking for but assuming it's based on the discussion we're having here, you find fun in instant gratification. I don't, but I also don't pick up an MMORPG and think that player progression should be completely invalidated because I want to participate in it how I want yet come out on top at the same time as the "non-regulars" or "degenerates", as you proclaim.
    It’s bizarre. We are asking for more avenues of progression and you have twisted into not wanting progression and instant gratification, because you can’t contend with reality.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It’s bizarre. We are asking for more avenues of progression and you have twisted into not wanting progression and instant gratification, because you can’t contend with reality.
    That "reality" part is rich coming from someone who can't stand how things are currently. Chill with the insults my guy.

    Clearly what I've indicated is that more avenues of progression has already made WoW shallow in many aspects as is (professions are gutted, already have magnitudes of ocean-wide-puddle-deep content *cough*Torghast*ahem*, etc.) so what other avenues of progression are you looking for now? You want Mythic+ 15 gear for fishing? Do you understand how monumental a task that'd be to develop content in such a manner without taking resources from other avenues?

    The game would die faster than it is now if we completely made every single thing we do in the game into an avenue of progression. Why have progression at all at that point; WoW could just be a glorified chat room with avatars. There has to be some difficulty and exclusion.
    Last edited by Ekis; 2022-01-22 at 02:49 AM.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I wouldn’t feel cheated if all the Mage Tower skins were made available through easier content. I didn’t acquire them to make myself feel good in comparison to a bunch of strangers on the internet. I did those challenges because I found them fun (for the most part) and that wouldn’t change if the rewards were put on a vendor an expansion later.
    Yeah because the mage tower experience is closer to a challenge than a competition since it's only up to yourself. You could never get that sense of challenge playing with a bunch of other players pushing for rio score in m+ unless you're all the same exact level of skill/gear. There'll always be a level of competition between players and if the point is that we as players should be hardhats and pretend we're the best and be cobra kai on a social level then that's where the game is now and wasn't in Vanilla where even the soft players could get loot from Molten Core.

    To succeed in retail is to be a bad person that's it. If you want high ilvl then you'll always play with people better than yourself and never play with people worse than yourself. It's a dog eat dog world and that's the HORRIBLE fact. It doesn't have to be like that and all those people that want it that way can PVP eachother.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    That "reality" part is rich coming from someone who can't stand how things are currently. Chill with the insults my guy.
    Some people think the "current" reality is the "only" reality that will ever exist.



    It's really sad that if I log into WoW and create a new character I know the formula of progression. I'll level up and have an ENJOYABLE time being non competitive with random people in the LFG tool and then I'll hit 50+ where the less enjoyable time begins... I'll hit 60 and I'll start playing Arena with 0 gear(I'll try to find someone much better geared than me to help me win points faster) I'll get point and I'll play with someone good enough to get me higher rating, and I'll get higher rating and I'll find someone else on higher rating and I'll get max ilvl. It's a boring formula.

    I just find it interesting that I really love doing dungeons 10-50 but then I start hating dungeons and will never do them again on that character unless I'm unlocking transmogs. I can't stand how transmogs should be the only reward in soft content.
    Last edited by nvaelz; 2022-01-22 at 02:55 AM.

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