How do you cater to both the Progression player and the Casual player?

[Deadite]

If watching MMORPGs develop since 2016 has taught me anything: To appeal to everyone, there should be a universal currency that everyone gets with a cap and it works towards the same gear stats. Needs are a thing of the real world, not a virtual one.

From my casual Andy perspective that is pretty much already in game. Korthian gear can go upto 233. So that instantly nullifies all content that i have the time or inclination to do. Trouble is that you have to grind up horrendous amount of stygia to get the item with the right stats that you will upgrade and then a ridiculous amount of research. So much so that is all you will be doing and it is boring as fuck. You have a couple of hours to spare and you have to run about the Maw/Korthia doing that terrible content? I mean it beats raiding i guess but you get sick of it fast.

They would have to find some fun content that you won't mind grinding. I don't know if that is possible in wow. They pretty much drop the content and go have fun for the next year doing it. Then the raiders won't be happy that the peasantry is getting gear comparable to them. They will go fucking mental at the very idea.

[Revamp Man]

Easy
You don’t kneecap the progression players to make the other guys feel better

[Gadzooks]

I assume that there isn't a 100% perfect answer but in your mind what would come close to the best possible compromise between these two groups?

In my mind the best option would be to cap power obtained outside of progression systems to roughly normal/heroic while removing all/most long term progression systems from the game. As for long term progression I could see a mythic/elite recolor being available though a long term grind would be better reward.

What are your thoughts on it?

Answer: Mists Of Pandaria. It had something for everyone. It wasn't perfect, but it was pretty damned good. I was a pretty casual player at that point, but I had a lot of fun in that one.

[Miffinat0r]

From my casual Andy perspective that is pretty much already in game. Korthian gear can go upto 233. So that instantly nullifies all content that i have the time or inclination to do. Trouble is that you have to grind up horrendous amount of stygia to get the item with the right stats that you will upgrade and then a ridiculous amount of research. So much so that is all you will be doing and it is boring as fuck. You have a couple of hours to spare and you have to run about the Maw/Korthia doing that terrible content? I mean it beats raiding i guess but you get sick of it fast.

They would have to find some fun content that you won't mind grinding. I don't know if that is possible in wow. They pretty much drop the content and go have fun for the next year doing it. Then the raiders won't be happy that the peasantry is getting gear comparable to them. They will go fucking mental at the very idea.

This is the portion that the devs and creative leads need to pushback on. This is the same toxic BS that Alex Asfraibi instilled in the company, and still persists today. With the current system they're cutting their noses off to spite their face. If you add a cap on a badge system that could lead to BiS then there's no chore feeling for anyone espeically if you max it out after a raid, a few M+ runs, and have a longer grind if you're solo.

Problem here is other players have this perception of "work" similar to why companies discourage people from sharing information on salary. It leads to drama that's largely irrelevant. (The real reason why companies do that is because it's an anti-labor organizing method, but I'm just spouting the corporate BS)

As I said many times before the only person consistent on these boards is Snorlax, as he advocates for a smaller playerbase, which is what the current system creates.

[Mokrath]

WotLK had a pretty good system for everyone.
Raiders got the best gear and faster than everyone else.
Players doing heroics could earn currency for gear at a slower rate but it was open to basically everyone.
MoP was also a solid system with the exception of one rep gating all the other reps.
Justice and Valor got you some solid gear and crafting could fill in some holes. It was enough to feel like you were always improving your character while still leaving raiders ahead of the curve.
I think with M+ giving another path to high end gear bringing back the Justice/Valor system would only improve the game for everyone and keep more players engaged and happy. Just make the currency drop from all forms of PVE content from world quests to mythic raiding and everything in between.
The SL Vault just doesn't do that for a lot of players right now. It also can give some players a huge early advantage in PvP if they hit the jackpot on a weapon.

[Wadrak]

Why is everyone acting like theres no solution? WE HAD IT ALREADY. TBC and Woltk had perfekt Balance between casual and hardcore players, even cata and mop.

WotLK is not example for anything we should use currently, really.

Maybe the zones were good in WotLK but current zones are even better.

Yeah I dont see anything good about WotLK.


If anything we base the game like Legion.
Lots of class stories for casuals players.

[T-34]

Problem here is other players have this perception of "work" similar to why companies discourage people from sharing information on salary. It leads to drama that's largely irrelevant. (The real reason why companies do that is because it's an anti-labor organizing method, but I'm just spouting the corporate BS)

Well, I am convinced that people like are grossly over-represented here compared to in-game.
And by "people like you" I mean people that feel entitled to the same rewards for less effort.
A game where rewards are given out regardless of skill/effort is a game that will get boring very fast, both for those at the top and those at the bottom of the skill ladder, because it nullifies one of man's greatest driving forces in all his endeavours - that being work, love, games, sport - and that is striving to achieve a goal.

If gear/rewards would be given out as Christmas present that would completely nullify that driving force.
That would of course make this small minority, that is grossly over-represented here, very happy, but the majority of the player-base would quit out of boredom.

[h8ryan]

there's literally never been an expansion where raiders didn't have BIS gear, the whole token system is a joke, you got maybe 3 useable pieces in TBC, you weren't walking around in T6/Sunwell gear

why not just play the game if you want to earn the rewards? or better yet, stop whining for BIS raid gear to do whatever it is that you're doing with your time

[Osmeric]

The answer is: you don't. If you try, a game that focuses on one of those audiences specifically will eat your lunch.

[Alydael]

I assume that there isn't a 100% perfect answer but in your mind what would come close to the best possible compromise between these two groups?

In my mind the best option would be to cap power obtained outside of progression systems to roughly normal/heroic while removing all/most long term progression systems from the game. As for long term progression I could see a mythic/elite recolor being available though a long term grind would be better reward.

What are your thoughts on it?

It is easy actually, Blizz just overcomplicated it (for some unknown reason). You design two sets of armor every patch (for each class) and some goodies (mounts, mogs, etc).

You make sure they are available Four different ways
world content (solo)
M+ (group dungeon)
Raid (group raid)
PVP

Same set, same look, same stat values, same other goodies. The only difference is: you get to decide how you want to play the game to earn the goodies.

If the elitist types want something to distinguish them from the more casual player, give them a title. There you go.

Really, to this day, still can not understand why they used a much more complicated, convoluted model that just seems to piss everyone off. The more complicated something is, the more things tend to go wrong ( ]cough[ borrowed power systems ]cough[).

[Miffinat0r]

there's literally never been an expansion where raiders didn't have BIS gear, the whole token system is a joke, you got maybe 3 useable pieces in TBC, you weren't walking around in T6/Sunwell gear

why not just play the game if you want to earn the rewards? or better yet, stop whining for BIS raid gear to do whatever it is that you're doing with your time

I mean WoW has lost a lot of casual players. With the attitudes I see here from some people, I don't think they ever want a larger playerbase again, but people act as if that's a bad thing; I mean just come out and say it lol.

[LordVargK]

Just make single player content that gives you good gear at a slower rate than doing group content. So by playing hyper progressive (doing literally every relevant content) you should have a character geared BIS after two months. By playing very casually you'll need maybe 5 or 6 months (patch lifetime minus two weeks). But you still get BIS (meaning mythic equivalent gear). Fuck elitists that want to gatekeep gear. By (also) ignoring the "But now everyone has epics, they are not special anymore! GG Blizz, dead game!"-crowd WotLK got the most players WoW ever had.

Corrupted Visions were an unbalanced mess with many flaws. But they were a good opportunity to get near BIS gear. And one some classes they were quite fun to do.

Now, how to keep progression players playing? Simple: Don't. If somebody clears mythic within 4 weeks, those players likely want to take a break after that either way.

[T-34]

I mean WoW has lost a lot of casual players. With the attitudes I see here from some people, I don't think they ever want a larger playerbase again, but people act as if that's a bad thing; I mean just come out and say it lol.

Why do you keep equating casual with bad or unwilling to put in an effort?
I know plenty of casual players - players that play little and not on a fixed schedule - that do very well in M+ especially, but also PVP. Raids of course a bit more complicated, but still there are plenty of 2-nights per week guilds that clear the raid on mythic each tier and those people often play less than those that you label as "casual".

Stop shaming casual players by claiming that casuals can't be good or complete content!

[cparle87]

Destiny 2 doesn't block casuals from obtaining pinacle gear. WoW did something similar with removing currency cap required to upgrade your M0 drops. Degeneracy that forces people to raid to obtain best possible gear, is another topic. People who only play M+ shouldn't be punished and forced to raid.

https://www.blueberries.gg/leveling/...x-power-level/

They tried that with titanforging, giving everything the chance to roll high. All it did was drive the hardcore and wannabe hardcores mad with anecdotes of filthy casuals getting max level gear from LFR and WQs. Which is a large population of these forums so it ended up sounding way worse than it normally would.

[h8ryan]

I mean WoW has lost a lot of casual players. With the attitudes I see here from some people, I don't think they ever want a larger playerbase again, but people act as if that's a bad thing; I mean just come out and say it lol.

giving away free gear doesn't increase the playerbase, increasing content does

the reason wow was so popular 10 years ago was because people didn't have the multitude of other options that exist now

the only thing that we should take from WOTLK is the weekly 1% increase to damage/healing to help people clear the raid so that guilds don't hit a wall and die like they are doing now

[Miffinat0r]

Why do you keep equating casual with bad or unwilling to put in an effort?
I know plenty of casual players - players that play little and not on a fixed schedule - that do very well in M+ especially, but also PVP. Raids of course a bit more complicated, but still there are plenty of 2-nights per week guilds that clear the raid on mythic each tier and those people often play less than those that you label as "casual".

Stop shaming casual players by claiming that casuals can't be good or complete content!

I guess we can chalk it up to the same reason you're always harping on "bad" and "entitlement" as if a video game were the real world.

Different strokes, for different folks. If you want a competitive MMO you have it, I'm just saying don't be shocked as expansions continually have diminishing returns on players staying because people want to be treated like humans and have the dignity and respect they deserve regardless of skill.

I dunno, I like people.

[h8ryan]

They tried that with titanforging, giving everything the chance to roll high. All it did was drive the hardcore and wannabe hardcores mad with anecdotes of filthy casuals getting max level gear from LFR and WQs. Which is a large population of these forums so it ended up sounding way worse than it normally would.

that's not even the reason they were mad

they were mad because it forced hardcores to do every difficulty of content every week because a titanforged item had the chance to be their BIS, it's really not that difficult of a concept, people don't like chores

[cuafpr]

Simple: Currency system that can buy BiS. Currency caps, if you raid you get the max currency instantly. If you do solo you have to grind. That way no one feels forced to do any system, and everyone gets what they want.

this right here, even add ways to get them crafting (Quest?) and BAM everyone can always progress their character, the raider will be the fastest cause" reasons" but the casual daily quest player also sees their character grow in power vs hitting a hard cap on player power.

[Civciv]

Personally, I hope FFXIV continues to find success by indoctrinating terrible WoW players. The fewer bad WoW players there are, the better imo.

Glad you are banned❤️

[Miffinat0r]

that's not even the reason they were mad

they were mad because it forced hardcores to do every difficulty of content every week because a titanforged item had the chance to be their BIS, it's really not that difficult of a concept, people don't like chores

And thats why a currency with a cap that maxes out faster if you raid or M+ would eliminate that need to do chores. Get rewarded for content you do, regardless of what it is.